October 10, 200718 yr I can't even begin to have a discussion with someone that values a starter's record as meaningful to their actual success and ability or as an indicator of their value. Fine - start with this: take a look at this season's FA's and count the number of pitchers you would want closing for your team. Now compare that to the number of pitchers you would want starting for your team. I can guarentee the ratio will be at least 3-1 if not substantially higher.
October 10, 200718 yr Thats a flawed stance/proposition when there are 5 starters on a team and a lone closer. Why are we judging value based on what is available in a single FA class?
October 10, 200718 yr Do it based on ANY FA class! I don't give a F**K! You will not find closers as easily as starters. That's the whole point. Closers are rare. Since closers are rare, you need to snag one or resign one at the first opportunity. /discussion
October 10, 200718 yr What are your standards for a starter and a closer to have to be considered good? Do not give me wins or losses or saves or blown saves for benchmarks.
October 10, 200718 yr I just don't see where he has laid out what constitutes a 'premiere' starter and a 'premiere' reliever. I assume, he puts Rivera in there because of his track record, but Rivera wasn't even a top 15-20 reliever this year. Too much weight is put on 'mentality' and perception then actual results.
October 10, 200718 yr Closers are too volatile to deserve long term contracts. There are only a few (the Riveras, Wagners and Hoffmans) who really remain consistent over the course of time. Even then, the contracts are nearing $10 million a year make them not worth the expense for a middle and small market team who can just pluck some fireballer from the minors (the Rockies) or a veteran reliever (the Marlins) from somewhere and pump out 30-40 saves for a fraction of the price.
October 10, 200718 yr Author I assume, he puts Rivera in there because of his track record, but Rivera wasn't even a top 15-20 reliever this year. Too much weight is put on 'mentality' and perception then actual results. Rivera hasn't been mentally right when it really matters since he blew Game 7 of the 2001 World Series.
October 10, 200718 yr ....which is why it makes no sense to say a 'premiere' closer is harder to find then a 'premiere' starter. Its not that close, and the difference in value is considerable.
October 10, 200718 yr Just my .02. Over the course of a regular season, the closer's role is vastly overrated. An average to above average big league arm can get 3 outs before allowing 2 or more runs at an 85% success rate with little difficulty. In the playoffs, you do win with elite/power pitching. An elite/power closer in the playoffs is a true advantage, and there are very few of them, and fewer that make it. However, you never build dynasties around a bullpen, and relative long-term success from a bullpen is an absolute crap-shoot.
October 10, 200718 yr Clearly you all know a heck of a lot more about baseball than me. I was mistaken to believe that true closers are a rare commodity. I appologize to the entire board for my obvious ignorance. I can see now that closers are a dime a dozen. Just weird that Papelbon is a closer this year, you know. :mis2
October 10, 200718 yr Clearly you all know a heck of a lot more about baseball than me. I was mistaken to believe that true closers are a rare commodity. I appologize to the entire board for my obvious ignorance. I can see now that closers are a dime a dozen. Just weird that Papelbon is a closer this year, you know. :mis2 Yeah it is weird that a guy who succeeded in that role and would probably be nothing more than the 5th starter on that team's roster was a closer. Especially on a team stocked with starting pitching. Weird.
October 10, 200718 yr Clearly you all know a heck of a lot more about baseball than me. I was mistaken to believe that true closers are a rare commodity. I appologize to the entire board for my obvious ignorance. I can see now that closers are a dime a dozen. Just weird that Papelbon is a closer this year, you know. :mis2 His shoulder injury prevented him from having a realistic chance of returning to the rotation. You've made quite the compelling argument for your point though. :|
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