October 9, 200718 yr http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3055382 Among the possible Yankees free agents, one has confirmed he is testing the market: closer Mariano Rivera. Let the speculation begin. :mis2
October 9, 200718 yr This seems like an odd decision to me. He's getting to the end of his career, and he just had his career worst (although still not bad) season. Granted, when your worst season in the majors is a 3.15 ERA, that's not too bad. However, he almost doubled his 1.80 ERA in 2007. He turns 38 in November, so you would have to think that his best years are going to be behind him. What team would be a good fit for him?
October 9, 200718 yr *prepares for Yankees to overpay out the ass to keep him* That's basically why he said what he did.
October 9, 200718 yr Author *prepares for Yankees to overpay out the ass to keep him* You never know. He may actually want out. But the most likely scenario is the Yankees overpaying out the ass the keep him.
October 9, 200718 yr If we have to sign him to a two year deal so he can close out his HOF career in pinstipes, I don't see how this deal doesn't get done. Bottom line, he is still a consistantly premeire closer in baseball and those are harder to find than a premeire left handed starter.
October 9, 200718 yr Bottom line, he is still a consistantly premeire closer in baseball and those are harder to find than a premeire left handed starter. really? CC, Johan, Bedard, Kazmir... am I missing anyone else? maybe Hamels? premier closers from 2007: Valverde, KRod, Putz, Jenks, Saito, Nathan, Papelbon, Wagner, Isringhausen, Corpas(perhaps)
October 9, 200718 yr Bottom line, he is still a consistantly premeire closer in baseball and those are harder to find than a premeire left handed starter. really? CC, Johan, Bedard, Kazmir... am I missing anyone else? maybe Hamels? premier closers from 2007: Valverde, KRod, Putz, Jenks, Saito, Nathan, Papelbon, Wagner, Isringhausen, Corpas(perhaps) Buehrle and Hamels. This is also leaving out people like RJ and Zito who had injuries or off years. Your closer list is nonsense. Valverde had a good season - doesn't make him a reliable closer. Borowski has had two good seasons - still not a reliable closer. On my list is Mo, KRod, Putz, Hoffman, and Wagner - maybe Papelbon.
October 9, 200718 yr Author On my list is Mo, KRod, Putz, Hoffman, and Wagner - maybe Papelbon. Putz only had one good season too. Shouldn't he be in the Valverde group?
October 9, 200718 yr Putz only had one good season too. Shouldn't he be in the Valverde group? Well, this is his 2nd solid season in a row out of 2 as a closer. So he's borderline, but yeah - he could have gone either way. It depends on how many dominating performances you think it takes to become THE guy. :wacko Thanks for your comprehensive insight and analysis. You work for TBS now?
October 9, 200718 yr Bottom line, he is still a consistantly premeire closer in baseball and those are harder to find than a premeire left handed starter. really? CC, Johan, Bedard, Kazmir... am I missing anyone else? maybe Hamels? premier closers from 2007: Valverde, KRod, Putz, Jenks, Saito, Nathan, Papelbon, Wagner, Isringhausen, Corpas(perhaps) Buehrle and Hamels. This is also leaving out people like RJ and Zito who had injuries or off years. Your closer list is nonsense. Valverde had a good season - doesn't make him a reliable closer. Borowski has had two good seasons - still not a reliable closer. On my list is Mo, KRod, Putz, Hoffman, and Wagner - maybe Papelbon. I mean, by that thinking... Bedard and Hamels have only had 1 great year
October 9, 200718 yr I mean, by that thinking... Bedard and Hamels have only had 1 great year And that's a fair point. However, like I said, we are leaving off a bunch of guys who missed all/most of the season due to injury or had off years. Also, I think it's easier to start a game than it is to close. Closing is a completely different animal and is rarely if ever determined by a guy's "stuff" as much as it is his mental makeup. That's the part that makes a solid and consistant closer ellusive.
October 10, 200718 yr Bottom line, he is still a consistantly premeire closer in baseball and those are harder to find than a premeire left handed starter. really? CC, Johan, Bedard, Kazmir... am I missing anyone else? maybe Hamels? premier closers from 2007: Valverde, KRod, Putz, Jenks, Saito, Nathan, Papelbon, Wagner, Isringhausen, Corpas(perhaps) Buehrle and Hamels. This is also leaving out people like RJ and Zito who had injuries or off years. Your closer list is nonsense. Valverde had a good season - doesn't make him a reliable closer. Borowski has had two good seasons - still not a reliable closer. On my list is Mo, KRod, Putz, Hoffman, and Wagner - maybe Papelbon. I'd say RJ and Zito are finished as far as being premiere goes. Johnson is 44-years-old and is coming off a season which he was limited to 10 games before being finished and having a 5 era the year before. Can he still be effective, maybe even above average? Sure, but he is most likely done as far as premier. While Zito is younger, and this year was only his really poor year in the last 3, he was so atrocious looking when watching him live, it makes me really skeptical to think he might ever be what he once was. His velocity was down a good deal this year, consistently in the mid 80s with his fastball, and he really struggled to locate his curve for most of the year, which isn't a promising sign. Obviously I could be wrong, as he came back from a poor 2004 to have 2 good years in a row, and had a good August this year, after a horrendous July, I am skeptical for the reason I stated. I agree with Ramp though, I think it is harder to find a premier lefty than a premier closer. With that said, I would take your future closer over almost anybody for the future.
October 10, 200718 yr With that said, I would take your future closer over almost anybody for the future. I agree with you 100% and probably should have phrased my statement a little better. Maybe I should have said a premeire closer is more VALUABLE than a premeir left handed starter? I was trying to get across how difficult they are to find in the first place, again, because you can't just watch a guy pitch and know he has what it takes to close a ball game.
October 10, 200718 yr A top starter is always more valuable then a top reliever. Not even that close either.
October 10, 200718 yr A top starter is always more valuable then a top reliever. Not even that close either. We're not talking about a reliever - we're talking about a CLOSER. That's really a different animal. Ask a Florida Marlin fan about the value of a quality closer [*cough* **JULIO** *cough*]. :mischief A starter can win fewer than 50% of his starts. A closer better convert 85% of his save opportunities. Less than that and he is likely to lose his job. Perfect example - why doesn't Gagne have a job? He converted 80% of his saves. Matsuzaka still has a job and he only won 15 of his 32 starts - that's 47% isn't it? And 15-12 means he only won 56% of his decisions. Why does he still have a job?
October 10, 200718 yr Author Matsuzaka still has a job and he only won 15 of his 32 starts - that's 47% isn't it? And 15-12 means he only won 56% of his decisions. Why does he still have a job? 1) He signed a HYOOOOGE contract. 2) Those 15 wins come on a season where he worked harder than he ever had, going from a start every six games to a start every five. Next year will be more telling of whether his signing was worth it or not. (And it's still 15 wins, which is a decent benchmark for a good pitcher.) (Also, you're the one to talk. The Yankees signed Roger Clemens for $18 million for a half-season, and got 6-6 from him.)
October 10, 200718 yr (Also, you're the one to talk. The Yankees signed Roger Clemens for $18 million for a half-season, and got 6-6 from him.) Point = Missed [FTR - look at my posts prior to and immediately after the Clemens signing - I was STAUNCHLY opposed to it] Back on topic: A starter can win fewer than 50% of his starts. A closer better convert 85% of his save opportunities. Less than that and he is likely to lose his job. THAT was my point. I only threw out that Matsuzaka stat to show that a 15-12 starter is easier to come by than a closer that can convert over 85% of his save opportunities. Additionally, when you take the Gagne stat into account, I further demonstrated that an 80% conversion rate will get you fired and/or traded. If Fox wants to think it's easier to find a closer than a starter, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it. I look at the FA market and say the numbers disagree.
October 10, 200718 yr I can't even begin to have a discussion with someone that values a starter's record as meaningful to their actual success and ability or as an indicator of their value. Nothing against yf21 if he feels that way, its just going to come down to a fundamental disagreement.
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