The debt is not to the federal reserve, it is to the bondholders of the debt.

The debt is to more than one party, but the federal reserve is the one that creates the money it loans the government out of nothing.

 

Do a little research.

You can read the stats, more than 40% of our debt is owned by the (privately owned) Fed, meaning they own by far the largest chuck of our national debt.

However the authors of the stats page are under the mistaken impression (as are most Americans) that the Fed is a government institution, rather than privately owned and run.

The debt is not to the federal reserve, it is to the bondholders of the debt.

True, like China. The Federal Reserve pulls in only 300 million of profit a year...hardly a scary amount. Private banks with advanced market knowledge is scarier.

 

More often than not? Please cite evidence.

Then you please cite evidence first for the claim that [most] illegals pay income taxes.

 

In reality, millions are entirely off the tax paying grid, as they are essentially day laborers or "black" (in the off the books sense) labor.

OMG da eViL FeDeRaL ReSeRvE f***ers iN aTLanTA aRe GoNnA gEt Us AlL!!!!!11!!!!!

The debt is not to the federal reserve, it is to the bondholders of the debt.

The debt is to more than one party, but the federal reserve is the one that creates the money it loans the government out of nothing.

 

Do a little research.

You can read the stats, more than 40% of our debt is owned by the (privately owned) Fed, meaning they own by far the largest chuck of our national debt.

However the authors of the stats page are under the mistaken impression (as are most Americans) that the Fed is a government institution, rather than privately owned and run.

 

The accounts in the Federal Reserve where the government owes money are owned by private investors. In other words, the government issues bonds through the Federal Reserve (in effect, the Federal Reserve is the underwriter), the Federal Reserve sells those bonds to investors, and then when payment comes due, the government pays off the bondholders.

 

This is how it works with municipal and corporate bonds. You have the issuer (whatever entity that is), the underwriter (some bank), and the investors. The underwriter buys the bonds from the issuer at a certain interest rate (say 5.0%), then sells those bonds to investors at something less than 5.0%, and the underwriter's profits is the difference between those two interest rates. Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Citibank, Wachovia, Morgan Stanley all do this. I would imagine it works the same way with the United States Government, except it's underwriter is always the Federal Reserve.

 

As an aside, I am a finance attorney. I work in this industry every single day.

 

I don't have a problem with the government owing money to a private bank. I mean, would it make any sense for the government to owe money to one of it's own institutions? At that point the debt would be illusory and would have no economic impact (one way or the other).

The debt is not to the federal reserve, it is to the bondholders of the debt.

True, like China. The Federal Reserve pulls in only 300 million of profit a year...hardly a scary amount. Private banks with advanced market knowledge is scarier.

 

More often than not? Please cite evidence.

Then you please cite evidence first for the claim that [most] illegals pay income taxes.

 

In reality, millions are entirely off the tax paying grid, as they are essentially day laborers or "black" (in the off the books sense) labor.

 

I specifically wrote that when they are not paid in cash (off the books) they pay income taxes. That is indisputable. Of course, we don't know what percentage of these workers are paid in cash. I think it would be very hard to figure that out. Some pay income taxes and some don't. I don't know the exact figures, but it is baseless to say that they don't pay income taxes because, well, at least some do.

The Federal Reserve is an autonomous central bank that just happens to include every single American citizen as a shareholder. The shareholder voting is held by proxy with the President of the United States appointing and the Senate confirming.

 

....or so I like to simplify it in my mind as such.

The accounts in the Federal Reserve where the government owes money are owned by private investors.

 

I don't have a problem with the government owing money to a private bank. I mean, would it make any sense for the government to owe money to one of it's own institutions? At that point the debt would be illusory and would have no economic impact (one way or the other).

Do you have a problem with the value of your money being in the control of a private bank? Seriously, you sound like you think giving a FOR PROFIT private institution the power to engineer recessions and depressions by giving them control of the money supply (and inflation) is a good thing. You sound like you enjoy being taxed at higher and higher rates while your money loses value to pay off debt to a private institution that provides NOTHING. They create money out of NOTHING and then loan it with interest to the government who then makes us pay it back.

 

Maybe I'm not being clear. You seem to think that when this private bank loans money to the government, that the money they are loaning to the government is real money that they actually have (or even simply have the appropriate fractional reserve). That isn't the case. They create money that they never had, and then loan it to Congress who has the Constitutional power to create the money themselves debt free.

Things have worked out alright. I am okay with it. None of our recessions or depressions have been caused by this.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's really not that important. I trust the market.

The debt is not to the federal reserve, it is to the bondholders of the debt.

True, like China. The Federal Reserve pulls in only 300 million of profit a year...hardly a scary amount. Private banks with advanced market knowledge is scarier.

 

More often than not? Please cite evidence.

Then you please cite evidence first for the claim that [most] illegals pay income taxes.

 

In reality, millions are entirely off the tax paying grid, as they are essentially day laborers or "black" (in the off the books sense) labor.

 

I specifically wrote that when they are not paid in cash (off the books) they pay income taxes. That is indisputable. Of course, we don't know what percentage of these workers are paid in cash. I think it would be very hard to figure that out. Some pay income taxes and some don't. I don't know the exact figures, but it is baseless to say that they don't pay income taxes because, well, at least some do.

So are we talking about a minority or a majority?

 

Assuming it is 50% on the books, how much of that 50% get earned income tax credit?

 

So, without doing a crap load of research, it is likely that the majority of illegals do not pay towards government programs. Most taxes within our progressive system are paid by the rich--so how much are illegals actually paying into huckabee's program? In reality, the group as a whole is getting more services than what they pay for...which is all fine and dandy if we like a welfare state. However, to ignore the fact that things like this act as a financial incentive to illegally enter the country is ludicris.

The Federal Reserve is an autonomous central bank that just happens to include every single American citizen as a shareholder. The shareholder voting is held by proxy with the President of the United States appointing and the Senate confirming.

 

....or so I like to simplify it in my mind as such.

No. That is the lie implied by the deceptive name "Federal Reserve". It is as Federal as Federal Express. The Shareholders in the Federal Reserve Banks are mostly other banks. They make money from them Fed. We have to pay them for the artificial debt.

 

The Courts have affirmed that the Federal Reserve System Banks are priavtely owned institutions.

?Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purpose of the FTCA, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.? Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)

Things have worked out alright. I am okay with it. None of our recessions or depressions have been caused by this.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's really not that important. I trust the market.

Well, the Great Depression was caused by a combination of tariffs, bad fiscal and monetary policy, immigration restriction, and according to keynesian economists an unequal distribution of wealth.

 

But the Fed's deflationary policies in the late 20s and early 30s played a role.

Things have worked out alright. I am okay with it. None of our recessions or depressions have been caused by this.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's really not that important. I trust the market.

Ok...just hang on to those Federal Reserve notes

Keep trusting them to protect the value of your dollars. They've done such a good job with the 4% left since the Fed was established that I can see why you have so much confidence in them.

The Federal Reserve is an autonomous central bank that just happens to include every single American citizen as a shareholder. The shareholder voting is held by proxy with the President of the United States appointing and the Senate confirming.

 

....or so I like to simplify it in my mind as such.

No. That is the lie implied by the deceptive name "Federal Reserve". It is as Federal as Federal Express. The Shareholders in the Federal Reserve Banks are mostly other banks. They make money from them Fed. We have to pay them for the artificial debt.

 

The Courts have affirmed that the Federal Reserve System Banks are priavtely owned institutions.

?Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purpose of the FTCA, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.? Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)

The bolding obscures the point a bit, but you need to realize that the Court's ruling in Lewis v. US recognized the Reserve banks as independent, privately owned, locally controlled corporation for the purpose of the FTCA (Federal Torts Claim Act). Thus, all the Lewis decision confirms is that the reserve banks are not public entities as defined by the Federal Tort Claim Act. That's a far cry from implying that they are completely private.

 

I mean the President appoints the Board of Governors and the Chairman. Those individuals comprise the majority of the FOMC which is in charge of making alot of the decisions you criticize the Fed for making. I'm not saying that the Fed isn't private, but to say that it's not also quasi-public is a tad misleading, in my opinion.

I mean the President appoints the Board of Governors and the Chairman. Those individuals comprise the majority of the FOMC which is in charge of making alot of the decisions you criticize the Fed for making. I'm not saying that the Fed isn't private, but to say that it's not also quasi-public is a tad misleading, in my opinion.

He appoints them from a list given by the shareholders. To what extent are they public? Where is the oversight and accountability? The very fact that the government can owe them money makes the distinction. It's wealth is not the wealth of the people. We the people are put into debt by bad policy and the Fed collects interest on it.

The debt is not to the federal reserve, it is to the bondholders of the debt.

True, like China. The Federal Reserve pulls in only 300 million of profit a year...hardly a scary amount. Private banks with advanced market knowledge is scarier.

 

More often than not? Please cite evidence.

Then you please cite evidence first for the claim that [most] illegals pay income taxes.

 

In reality, millions are entirely off the tax paying grid, as they are essentially day laborers or "black" (in the off the books sense) labor.

 

An Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (or ITIN) is a United States tax processing number issued by the Internal Revenue Service. It is a nine-digit number that begins with the number 9 and has a 7 or 8 in the fourth digit, example 9xx-7x-xxxx or 9xx-8x-xxxx. The IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain, a Social Security Number.

 

ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have Federal tax return and payment responsibilities under the Internal Revenue Code. Individuals must have a filing requirement and file a valid federal income tax return to receive an ITIN, unless they meet an exception.

 

In 2006 1.4 million people used ITIN when filing taxes. Federal tax law prohibits the IRS from sharing data with other government agencies including the INS, ensuring illegal immigrants that the tax information will be confidential and not be used to deport them.[1

We have 10 to 30 million illegal immigrants in this country. Apparently, somewhere between 3 to 15% filed their taxes.

Just a thought experiment for RudyTheGangster:

 

Huckabee's program was a state program. So, suppose this program was offered in a state that had no state personal income tax (Florida, Alaska, Nevada, Texas, South Dakota, Washington or Wyoming), would the child of the illegal immigrant be more entitled to be part of that program because, presumably, his/her parents have contributed as much to the state's revenue as a family of legal status with similar economic means would have?

We have 10 to 30 million illegal immigrants in this country. Apparently, somewhere between 3 to 15% filed their taxes.

 

The figure is around 14 Mil.... The majority of the people are humble, hard workers who come to this country to do jobs that no one in here will be willing to do. They're working in conditions you can't imagine. They're being exploited for every miserable penny they earned. You have no idea how important they really are to the economy of this country. Is not really a bad figure considering circumstances and all...

 

I would much rather see assimilated and contributing the kids of immigrants. They will be contributing as they acquire a legal status here and we're talking about kids who have demonstrated that they're worthy of a higher education.

We have 10 to 30 million illegal immigrants in this country. Apparently, somewhere between 3 to 15% filed their taxes.

 

no, many illegal immigrants actually have valid social security numbers. so, it's actually a much higher number that file their taxes.

 

in addition, you neglect the fact that many illegal aliens actually use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes into the system but cannot get any returns. in other words, they can't get the credit you mentioned, so they pay into the system but don't get anything back.

An additional point: if you're so concerned that they pay taxes, why not legalize them so they actually do pay into the system?

Again, I have nothing against immigrants as individuals. The reason why we cannot just legalize them all, becauyse like the 80s, that is construed as amnesty and adds further incentive to enter the country illegally.

 

many illegal immigrants actually have valid social security numbers. so, it's actually a much higher number that file their taxes.

 

in addition, you neglect the fact that many illegal aliens actually use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes into the system but cannot get any returns. in other words, they can't get the credit you mentioned, so they pay into the system but don't get anything back.

Sources? A source you quoted put the number at 1.4 million...far below their number.

___

The majority of the people are humble, hard workers who come to this country to do jobs that no one in here will be willing to do. They're working in conditions you can't imagine.

I am sure I can imagine them, you do not know my background.

 

They're being exploited for every miserable penny they earned.

Exploited? They are receiving a fair market wage for unskilled labor.

 

You have no idea how important they really are to the economy of this country. Is not really a bad figure considering circumstances and all...

 

I would much rather see assimilated and contributing the kids of immigrants.

Assimilatinmg to the inner city is the last thing we need in the country. Often, the illegal immigrants themselves are fine. The first generation Americans in the inner-cities are much worse. But who cares?? The fact of the matter is that we are in a war and endangering ourselves by having open borders. The fact we cannot be safe walking around in our own cities is just another minus.

 

Huckabee's program was a state program. So, suppose this program was offered in a state that had no state personal income tax (Florida, Alaska, Nevada, Texas, South Dakota, Washington or Wyoming), would the child of the illegal immigrant be more entitled to be part of that program because, presumably, his/her parents have contributed as much to the state's revenue as a family of legal status with similar economic means would have?

Technically, a state should be allowed to do any stupid thing it wants. However, the fact of the matter is that ideally ALL financial incentives for illegals should be rescinded as part and parcel in a program to end illegal immigration.

many illegal immigrants actually have valid social security numbers. so, it's actually a much higher number that file their taxes.

 

in addition, you neglect the fact that many illegal aliens actually use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes into the system but cannot get any returns. in other words, they can't get the credit you mentioned, so they pay into the system but don't get anything back.

Sources? A source you quoted put the number at 1.4 million...far below their number.

 

My source: my family and I. We came over illegally in the 80s fleeing the communist government/war of Nicaragua. Initially, my mother and older brother used a fake social security number to work, which meant they paid into the system but never received credit for such payment or a return.

 

Before you get your panties in a wad, we're all legal now (in fact, American citizens, and proud of it), my brother is an orthodontist, I am an attorney, and I went to a top college and law school.

 

Huckabee's program would have benefitted me (had I been illegal at that time and had I not decided to go to a private university) and definitely would have benefitted my brother (he did go to a state school). My brother and I together pay a ton of money in taxes now - well more than any benefits we might have ever received.

many illegal immigrants actually have valid social security numbers. so, it's actually a much higher number that file their taxes.

 

in addition, you neglect the fact that many illegal aliens actually use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes into the system but cannot get any returns. in other words, they can't get the credit you mentioned, so they pay into the system but don't get anything back.

Sources? A source you quoted put the number at 1.4 million...far below their number.

 

My source: my family and I. We came over illegally in the 80s fleeing the communist government/war of Nicaragua. Initially, my mother and older brother used a fake social security number to work, which meant they paid into the system but never received credit for such payment or a return.

 

Before you get your panties in a wad, we're all legal now (in fact, American citizens, and proud of it), my brother is an orthodontist, I am an attorney, and I went to a top college and law school.

 

Huckabee's program would have benefitted me (had I been illegal at that time and had I not decided to go to a private university) and definitely would have benefitted my brother (he did go to a state school). My brother and I together pay a ton of money in taxes now - well more than any benefits we might have ever received.

 

:thumbup

 

I'm going to be honest.... I can relate to those kids. My family departed to US from Colombia when I was seven years old. We were at one point in the U.S "with out green card". My parents with a lot hard work able to purchase the home we live in before their obtaining their residency (Now, we're U.S citizens). My dad always paid his taxes even before he was "legal" because he had acquired a social security in the early 80's, which was easily obtainable from IRS back in those days. I'm currently an A&P mechanic, which is short for Airplane mechanic. I'm also in my third year of my major, which is in International Business. How was my family or I a burden to this country? I’m thankful for the opportunities that United States have giving me and I’m sure so will those students who need that legal status to become the future educators, lawyers, doctors, etc.

many illegal immigrants actually have valid social security numbers. so, it's actually a much higher number that file their taxes.

 

in addition, you neglect the fact that many illegal aliens actually use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes into the system but cannot get any returns. in other words, they can't get the credit you mentioned, so they pay into the system but don't get anything back.

Sources? A source you quoted put the number at 1.4 million...far below their number.

 

My source: my family and I. We came over illegally in the 80s fleeing the communist government/war of Nicaragua. Initially, my mother and older brother used a fake social security number to work, which meant they paid into the system but never received credit for such payment or a return.

 

Before you get your panties in a wad, we're all legal now (in fact, American citizens, and proud of it), my brother is an orthodontist, I am an attorney, and I went to a top college and law school.

 

Huckabee's program would have benefitted me (had I been illegal at that time and had I not decided to go to a private university) and definitely would have benefitted my brother (he did go to a state school). My brother and I together pay a ton of money in taxes now - well more than any benefits we might have ever received.

Anecdotal evidence is not exactly convincing when we are talking about a group of people that are increasing who are a drain on the taxpayer base.

 

Again, I have nothing against immigrants. However, we can no longer afford the welfare state and open borders. If we did not have a problem with foreign terrorism and no welfare state, I would welcome anyone here.

Studies show immigrants are much less likely to seek welfare benefits than their American counterparts. This is easily verifiable. The main benefits are related to schooling and things of that sort, which everyone has access to.