I love the way McCain is marketing himself right now, his team is doing an excellent job. When Obama was in Berlin, McCain was at a local German restaurant/tavern in some small Ohio town.

 

If McCain can runaway with the middle American non college educated white man vote, that would be huge.

McCain seems kinda dead right now with media coverage, but he overcame worse odds in the primaries, so you never know.

I love the way McCain is marketing himself right now, his team is doing an excellent job. When Obama was in Berlin, McCain was at a local German restaurant/tavern in some small Ohio town.

I hope that's sarcasm...

I love the way McCain is marketing himself right now, his team is doing an excellent job. When Obama was in Berlin, McCain was at a local German restaurant/tavern in some small Ohio town.

I hope that's sarcasm...

 

Why would it be? It's stuff like that that is going to win him the middle American white male vote, who typically vote democratic. They don't like seeing their candidate campaigning and getting all this media attention in Europe, and John McCain was right their letting them know that he's just "one of them", a regular guy who will campaign in and cares about small town America.

 

Is it true? Of course not, but it's all about how you market yourself. That's why GWB is a two term president.

Obama will have plenty of time to talk to Americans from now until November. I'm glad that some politician who opposes Bush's failed foreign policy decided that they needed to reassure the world that the USA will again work with our European allies.

 

I also heard that McCain was going to fly out to an oil rig earlier this week, but it was canceled due to the hurricane in the Gulf, plus that major oil spill on the Mississippi River a few days back.

NO

Just because Obama is towing AIPAC's line, doesn't necessarily mean that he will use military force against Iran. Unfortunately it is basically a requirement for any successful Presidential candidate to say that they will do whatever they can to support Israel, if they want to get elected.

 

Obama has specifically said that he wants to have all troops out of Iraq 16 months after Jan 2009. That is not the same as the administration position. Of course, now even the administration has finally said that they are open to discussing a withdrawal 'horizon' (whatever that means), something that McCain does not support.

200,000 is impressive considering that John McCain that day was bitching about the price of milk at a grocery store, but that million people figure is indicative of how quixotic Obama supporters have become.

 

In Berlin did he reiterate his unwavering support of Israel that he declared the previous day? I hope so, because if Europeans resent our presence in the Middle East they haven't seen anything yet.

 

Zionism and sensible foreign policy simply do not compute.

Zionism and sensible foreign policy simply do not compute for America.

Corrected.

Zionism and sensible foreign policy simply do not compute for America.

Corrected.

 

Define your version of Zionism, or support for the only free, democratic country in the Middle East, founded on and based on the same laws and morals as America. It can't just be the aid that bothers some of you, as the amount of aid to the Arabs is also immense-yet there is just a slight difference in the value system. Or is it the European version-one that has a long history of-well, if I have to explain it then it is a waste of time. Or is it just the economics-you know, if it lowers the price of gasoline, well, then who cares who we support. Support for Israel does compute in every way meaningful to any higher evolved being who does not have a problem knowing good vs evil.

 

The only problem debating this issue is that by debating it gives it credibility as a debateable subject-one that has a basis in legitimate dissent. That is the false premise, just like debating Holocaust deniers-it is not a debateable subject, except maybe for the European intellingente and the president (noncapital letters for a reason) of iran. Please don't join their ranks. And if Obama has even a thread of the morality and sensibility that his followers profess, it won't take him long to realize who he is dealing with.

 

Europe is not going anywhere to the point of being enemies of America-why does anyone worry about kissing their collective butts.

I honestly don't see any way that there will ever be a successful Israeli-Palestinian peace process if the US is always seen to be fully behind Israel. We refuse to criticize Israel for any reason, even when they kill hundreds of innocent people in retaliation for the actions of one or two Hamas or Hezbollah members. If we are going to be seen as impartial, we have to stop linking our foreign policy so close to that of Israel's.

 

Are they a good ally? Yes. However, we should also be trying to get the EU to admit Turkey as a member, something that would be of additional help to Middle Eastern peace.

I honestly don't see any way that there will ever be a successful Israeli-Palestinian peace process if the US is always seen to be fully behind Israel. We refuse to criticize Israel for any reason, even when they kill hundreds of innocent people in retaliation for the actions of one or two Hamas or Hezbollah members. If we are going to be seen as impartial, we have to stop linking our foreign policy so close to that of Israel's.

 

Are they a good ally? Yes. However, we should also be trying to get the EU to admit Turkey as a member, something that would be of additional help to Middle Eastern peace.

As I said, the undebatable is now being debated. The "disproportionate response" argument is being brought up.

I really don't feel it is worth convincing you, though I am saddened by your vision of moral equivalency between a hamas and hizbollah with a pathology of death and hatred versus Israel, a nation who values life and liberty. This is for those many young people who are on this board who need to understand the facts of life, not propoganda or foolish false idealism. This would not be an issue if there were the same value of life on both sides, both I believe everyone can see from the reality of the world, that there is a warped sickness permeating the Islamic world and those that exploit it.

 

I guess it is just as easy to ask you, how many people were flying those jets into our buildings and how many people would it take to set off a nuke in one of our cities. Just a few, right? Thus, even if, say Iran trained and paid for it, they are not responsible for the actions of a few. It is horrible to think that you believe that the organizations (hamas may be in power but is far from a government)that fund, educate, support and provide the weapons are not responsible-the same ones that hide and shoot from schools, hospitals and within the walls of apartment buildings who then scream vicitims when you fight back. Basically it is the same old song "damn those Jews, who the hell are they to think they should defend themselves". If Hamas or Hizbollah had the weaponry to destroy Israel, as Israel does at this time, would they be so restrained?

 

Finally, the US does favor Israel, and the only question that should be asked of you is Why shouldn't they? In fact, the support for balance is far too even given the basic values of the peoples, yet in a desire for peace, which Israel clearly wants more or is the only one of the two parties who sincerely wants peace, the US has given billions in aid to a corrupt and morally empty "partner" in Fatah. How does one seek peace when the only peace being offerred is a temporary calm and the official charter calls for the annihilation of Israel.

 

Israel is not only criticized, it is unfairly criticized but you can now go back to your pro palestinian student group in your belief of the victims. Truly the victims are all the people of the middle east being used by the groups that only want hatred to exist and those in the rest of the world so easily swayed by their own biases or just plain ignorance-at best. Do you also believe, as many Arabs do, that the Jews kidnap their children to drain their blood for pastries for the holidays?

 

Look, this "debate" will not go on. One nation fights for its very right to survive from the desired elimination by its enemies. One day there MAY be peace, but until then don't hold your breath waiting for Israel to approve their own destruction. You may not like it, but "never again" pal, and I say this with the memory of my father's blue numbers permanently tatooted on his left forearm.

I am trying to separate the Holocaust from this discussion. Obviously that was one of the worst actions in the history of humanity. However, the Israelis are not Americans. We can't be tying our foreign policy so close to Israel, especially not when that might take us into war with Iran. An attack on Iran by the US OR Israel would be a disaster for the Western world in a myriad of ways. Economically the price of oil would explode, and then possibly increase some more if the Iranians launch a blockade of the Strait of Hormuz. Politically, the people of Iran, who have been voting to decrease the power of Ahmedinejad's regime over the past year or two, would rally behind their crazy leader and keep him in power. Militarily, our nation doesn't have the manpower to have an occupation in Iraq, an air or ground war in Iran, and a failing nation building operation in Afghanistan, all at the same time. Iraq has been bad enough for the military without an even bigger problem to throw their way. Our men (and women) in uniform have sacrificed way too much for this nation, with many of them spending the majority of their time stuck in Iraq. They aren't even getting the right care at home, thanks to this uncaring group of draft-dodgers running the nation.

I am trying to separate the Holocaust from this discussion. Obviously that was one of the worst actions in the history of humanity. However, the Israelis are not Americans. We can't be tying our foreign policy so close to Israel, especially not when that might take us into war with Iran. An attack on Iran by the US OR Israel would be a disaster for the Western world in a myriad of ways. Economically the price of oil would explode, and then possibly increase some more if the Iranians launch a blockade of the Strait of Hormuz. Politically, the people of Iran, who have been voting to decrease the power of Ahmedinejad's regime over the past year or two, would rally behind their crazy leader and keep him in power. Militarily, our nation doesn't have the manpower to have an occupation in Iraq, an air or ground war in Iran, and a failing nation building operation in Afghanistan, all at the same time. Iraq has been bad enough for the military without an even bigger problem to throw their way. Our men (and women) in uniform have sacrificed way too much for this nation, with many of them spending the majority of their time stuck in Iraq. They aren't even getting the right care at home, thanks to this uncaring group of draft-dodgers running the nation.

You make the false assumption that an attack on Iran would be a unilateral action not justified by the knowledge that it would be stopping an imminent attack by Iran. While it may be useful to your point to eliminate the Holocaust from any discussion of the middle east, the formation of Israel was borne by the horrors of the Holocaust, thus, you need to understand that despite those horrors, a nation of morality and values was born, not one of vegeance and hatred and that nation was placed on land, not on any indiscriminate land, but on the original land of its people, thus it is epicenter to any discussion of the middle east. No one wants sympathy when it will be "the nuclear attack on Israel by Iran is one of the worst actions in history". But it is of value to note that the current situation (it is more than a situation) can hold its own as to right vs wrong regardless of the Holocaust.

 

Clearly, I know my passion, my values and I know that a discussion about the middle east could go on and on. I did not want to get into it but I do not sense hostility in your statements and point of view, so I am OK discussing it. But I do feel that there you feel there is an equality in goals and desires in the positions of Israel and the Arab countries. How I wish it were so, but it is too clear that there is not and history, through multiple attacks by allied Arab nations on Israel, has proven that point.

 

It is misguided to believe that a nuclear Iran is not of importance to America and that their actions will not destabilize the world. We all know that the US and even silently Europe want Israel to take out Iran's nuclear capabilities. So, Europe can continue to try to play footsie with Iran, but it is a frightful thought. Reading what you say about the "crazy leader" and the people would not keep him around jars so many unthinkable fears. Put nuclear capabilities in the hands of a "crazy leader" and carry the hope that he would never do anything like that is frankly one of the scariest thoughts in the world.

 

It is difficult for anyone who believes that all that is needed is a common ground for peace without understanding the driving force behind the Islamic belief. While many Muslims have denounced that this is what Islam stands for, the ones with the weapons are not the moderates.

 

Israel stands alone as a free and democratic society in the Middle East. I have heard it too often, just like the Nazi's, that there would be no trouble in the world if not for Israel. Many say the same about the United States. It is a time tested method when there is a need to find blame to justify an unjustifiable cause. And the propoganda machine is strong and unrelenting, Goebbels would be very proud-his students have learned the lessons well.

 

At the end of the war, Europe was freed. The Germans were defeated and none of the countries of Europe was obliterated from the map, although many were in terrible shape. In the case of Israel, there is no recovery from a one-time devastation. There is no second chance. To the haters of freedom, America is also an infidel and represents the same cause. It was not Israel that was attacked on 9/11, it was not Israel that had its civilian trains bombed (Spain), it was not Israel that had its subway bombed (London), or Bali or American bases around the world. Or do we just accept an acceptable amount of terrorism, just so we don't make them any madder than they are.

 

Obama speaks of a global citizenship. This cannot be achieved when the idea is to stand by and not support what is right. I am not in Obama's corner, but I also sense in him that he will easily discern, if he hasn't already, where support and favoritism is justified. Thus, I am not so afraid as others might be if he wins, and maybe the rest of Europe will get it by then(although that is doubtful).

Well, I can guarantee that if Obama does get elected, I will personally do everything I can do make sure that he follows through on his promises. From what I have been reading in the liberal blogosphere and in newspapers, I believe that at least us progressives will do our part to make sure he withdraws from Iraq.

 

I do understand your point about Bush, however. He and his campaign convinced voters that he would move away from a Clinton-style foreign policy. Despite those promises, he went far beyond what Clinton ever would have conceived, and will now leave the next President with a destabilized Middle East.

 

As far as Iran goes, I get the feeling that they are going to be a lot more dangerous if provoked, rather than if we just observe their actions and stop them from doing something stupid. Most of the rhetoric about Iran's motives is completely overblown. We need to try and convince the Iranians that they can have nuclear power, but they will have to give up the development of nuclear weapons if they want our help with nuclear reactors. Of course I would not want to concede to all of their demands, but if we can successfully negotiate with a nation that had 10,000 nuclear missiles trained on us for 50+ years (USSR), then we can certainly find a way to solve this problem.

He bombed Iraq incessantly, killed thousands, cast us into the Balkans, and intervened unnecessarily in Somalia.

For the record, Bush I began our involvement in Somalia, and then Clinton started the withdrawal.