Leaving out the draft, there hasnt been any significant signings from Latin America in the Beinfest era. Albeit its only been 3 years since he took the reins of the origanization, i cant recognize any up and coming players from the Marlins from Latin America. We need to be more aggreesive over there...its the formula thats worked for us in the past w/ players signed such as Edgar Renteria, Luis Castillo, Alex Gonzalez, Antonio Alfonseca, Felix Heredia and Miguel Cabrera. Those are the players right off the top of mind that have the most impact from LA. By now we should have at least 1 or 2 up and comers from LA and we have none. If I am wrong please correct me. Even D. Bautista was signed in 2000 by Al Avila who is now with the Tigers with Dave. If you guys know of any LA players that are good prospects which were originally signed by the Marlins, please list them here.

We also need to rebuild the rest of the farm system due to several trades this season. We had one of the best farm systems and now we have one of the worst. The following prospects were traded this year: Rob Henkel (one of our best pitchers and a lefty too), Ryan Snare, Denny Bautista, Will Smith, Adrian Gonzalez, and Don Levinski. Its a price i will gladly pay to win the world series and i am not whining. Beinfest has his work cut out for him. But i trust that he can build the farm system back to its prominence.

alfonseca was a rule 5 pick not signed from LA

'Significant' signings? You mean like spending millions on Cubans that defect? Because every day the Marlins are recruiting in Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and all over the region for the next Miguel Cabrera who I bet you didn't know of until two years after he signed his first Marlin contract.

So what's the agenda behind this post?

 

While I'll acknowledge we may not the as many high visibility propects as a year ago, this post is so full of inaccurracies it's almost laughable.

 

Loria, Beinfest et al have NOT had the team three years, in fact they've been in charge FOR LESS THAN TWO. We don't have one of the worst farm systems, anyone who follows the Marlins farm system knows from A to AA to AAA our farm teams were each regular season division winners. And the Mucats won it all in their league. And without Miggy and Dontrelle. Without Gonzalez, Smith and Snare.

 

Yes we lost Bautista and Gonzalez, yes a few others too, but our farm system is not as depleted as this Dolphin fan would lead us to believe.

 

It's also nice to find a diamond in the rough ala Miguel Cabrera, sign him and watch him blossom on a national stage, but player's like that are the exception that proves the rule. I have no doubt the Fish are out there look for the next Miguel Cabrera and when they find him, they'll sign him.

Our farm system isn't really that good...we are in the bottom third.

Our farm system isn't really that good...we are in the bottom third.

 

Sham we've had this debate, you and I, before. I would be the first to admit, as I did in my previous post that we've lost some high visibility prospects, the fact is the players remaining still found a way to win in each of their divisions. Whether its team chemistry (ala the Marlins in '03) or good management, or individual effort, somehow they found a way to win.

 

Look at the Mudcats or better yet the 'Topes, who went from having a dismal season in the first half to winning it all by August. It was a turnaround rivaling what the Fish did.

 

The objective of a minor league system is to provide a player or two every year that is major league ready to the parent club. Sometimes that player makes an immediate impact (Willis, Miggy) and sometimes that player or players may languish for years (Castro) on the bench. Sometime those players are traded to meet more immediate uses of the parent club.

 

The Fish still have significant prospects in the pipeline. Would we like to have more, certainly, you won't get an argument from me on that, but I don't see us being in the bottom third although I'm aware that some would-be "experts" say so. But as long as our minor league teams keep winning, and winning as we all know is contagious (to quote Trader Jack "winning is fun and fun is winning") and emotionally healthy for young players, I have no doubt we'll continue to feed the parent club with major league ready ballplayers as needed.

Theres no doubt i think are minor leagues will recover but i was just wondering why we hadnt heard about some phenom from low Class A ball (which would be most prob a Beinfest era signing) from LA. I know i jumped the gun and it takes more time for these guys to develop but i just wanted to discuss here my take to make good discussion. And please dont take my post to heart - just want to hear different views.

Well, Jeremy Hermida is a highly touted prospect who shined at low-A ball this year, but he was signed in the states.

I'm just trying to be a realist. We have four guys right now who project to be something other than a middle reliever/bench player in the majors...Allison, Hermida, Willingham and Olsen (and maybe Nunez, Aguila). Records don't matter that much especially if the games are being won by guys who are for the most part just filler. (Albuquerque) I follow our farm team as close as anyone else and I just can't say its any more than mediocre compared against other systems.

agreed Shamn, but you make a trade here or there and your farm can be replenished pretty quickly

agreed Shamn, but you make a trade here or there and your farm can be replenished pretty quickly

If we trade Lee and get SPivey + couple of arms we won't be looking so bad + 2003's draft needs their first season at A ball to see what we've got. Like I said its not hopeless, but we are in great shape either.

I'm just trying to be a realist. We have four guys right now who project to be something other than a middle reliever/bench player in the majors...Allison, Hermida, Willingham and Olsen (and maybe Nunez, Aguila). Records don't matter that much especially if the games are being won by guys who are for the most part just filler. (Albuquerque) I follow our farm team as close as anyone else and I just can't say its any more than mediocre compared against other systems.

Sham I understand your point of view and I respect it. Like you, I follow (admittedly from afar) the 'Topes with the same interest as you. I was surprised you didn't mention Erickson, Valdez and Wood.

 

But that said our disagreement, if we have one, regards the importance of creating a winning environment on minor league teams, which I believe is an important component in player development. Sure the Marlins organization has its share of journeymen minorleaguers, but if they help teach a Valdez or an Allison what it feels like to win, what's expected of them to win, I see value in that.

 

It isn't all stats stats stats. I would rather a prospect who comes from a winning team than one that perrenially loses, where individual stats are the only benchmark and winning is an abstract notion. It's a personal preference on my part.

 

I think every player on the Mudcats benefited from being part of a championship team, just like our Fish. They now have a much better idea now what it takes to win and they know how good it feels to be winners. And they each, in their own way, are better ballplayers for experiencing it.

If our farm system is so bad then why did the AAA Isotopes make the playoffs, AA Mudcats win the Southern League Championship and the A FSL Hammerheads win first-half championships? Remember Willis and Cabs were not with those teams during their runs, they were with the big club. I think our minor league system is stretched thin, but it is the end of a big season where we needed almost everyone and the next draft and round of signings should solve depth problems pretty quickly.

 

Remember Burnett really struggled in the Minors, he only made it to AA before being called up where he prospered with the big club. Once he got sent down he stank again. I think Stokes is going to be similar.

Dont forget Donnie Bridges - 10-2, 2.81ERA .186BAA, 109K/70Bb in 134.2IP.

 

I agree winning is a big advantage to player development. That motivates players to want to keep winning and in turn, increase their effort and focus. They prepare better which makes them better pros. That is just as important as having good stats. I think the Marlins farm system will be fine, but lets not focus on just latin american farm prospects.

I'm just trying to be a realist. We have four guys right now who project to be something other than a middle reliever/bench player in the majors...Allison, Hermida, Willingham and Olsen (and maybe Nunez, Aguila). Records don't matter that much especially if the games are being won by guys who are for the most part just filler. (Albuquerque) I follow our farm team as close as anyone else and I just can't say its any more than mediocre compared against other systems.

Sham I understand your point of view and I respect it. Like you, I follow (admittedly from afar) the 'Topes with the same interest as you. I was surprised you didn't mention Erickson, Valdez and Wood.

 

But that said our disagreement, if we have one, regards the importance of creating a winning environment on minor league teams, which I believe is an important component in player development. Sure the Marlins organization has its share of journeymen minorleaguers, but if they help teach a Valdez or an Allison what it feels like to win, what's expected of them to win, I see value in that.

 

It isn't all stats stats stats. I would rather a prospect who comes from a winning team than one that perrenially loses, where individual stats are the only benchmark and winning is an abstract notion. It's a personal preference on my part.

 

I think every player on the Mudcats benefited from being part of a championship team, just like our Fish. They now have a much better idea now what it takes to win and they know how good it feels to be winners. And they each, in their own way, are better ballplayers for experiencing it.

I didn't mention those players mostly because at their age they are not considered prospects because their "ceilings" have been reached and can't be relied upon for anything but bench help. Although, I have a special liking for Erickson his defense will keep him from ever being a ML regular.

 

It isn't all stats stats stats. I would rather a prospect who comes from a winning team than one that perrenially loses, where individual stats are the only benchmark and winning is an abstract notion. It's a personal preference on my part.

 

Our rift goes philisophical from here in that you place a large value on players coming from winning minor league environments and I place value on said players talents. I'm tempted to dig up data on prospects that were highly rated and came from winning environments as opposed to losing environments to see if there is a difference in ML performance, attitude, etc. I won't so lets agree to disagree.

 

I will disagree with you, however, on your last statement. I don't believe that Billy Hall or Chris Aguila will have an increased batting eye or more defensive prowess because of a championship won.

 

Again Capefish I don't equate higher level prospects with the amount of minor league success their clubs have had, but in the skills they bring to the table which are measured by my preciousssss statistics. You see most of you label me as a stat junky and withdrawn from the game, but I use the stats to judge the skills or talents players possess.

And if you actually look up AJ's stats you will find that he didn't struggle much at all by the standards set for such a young pitcher. He dominated at every level of the minors and injuries are the only thing holding him back from being a top 10 starter in this league. He will be 27 starting the 2004 season.

Guys we might not be breaking the bank for top talent but the organization is signing players from other countries. OF Kenny Berkenbosch was signed by Freddy out of the Netherland, also remember "the next Vlad" Ulyssess aka Juan Lindesey. He hasn't been the next Vlad but maybe that was a little unfair to put that kind of label on the kid. You have Pablo Sosa from the Marlins Dominican School who really came on strong this year in both GCL and short-season in the NYPENN league. LHP Jon-Micha Nickerson another find by Freddy who was the top Lefty in the GCL and I believe had a no-hitter this year.RHP Henricu Vanden Hurk is another name freddy brought over to the organization. Mauro Zarate is one of the top pitcher in the Venezuelan Summer League who plays for the Marlins who could be brought over this year to play in the CGL. So the names might not be will known but they are active. And Freddy is leading the charge, which again I point out how important he is to this organization. The Marlins can't let him go!

Fred Ferreria (sp) is not going to leave is he?

I guess someone read my post because I got this e-mail shortly after,

 

"Don't forget about RHP Yorman Bazardo(Venezuelan signing) who has K'ed 8 batters in 6 innings, posting a 1.35 ERA in 5 games for Aragua(Venezuelan Winter League). He's yet to walk a batter. Since the Marlins traded away quite a few talented prospects in their title run, Bazardo is a 19-year-old kid worth watching."

 

 

Thanks :thumbup

Was it Bazardo or Ronald Belizardio that got shut down for tired arm this past season?