The decadence of a Society

[Lcyberlina]

(EDITED!)

My family has been coffee growers for three generations and we had been practically untouched by the social turmoil going on in Colombia... However, coffee is not what it used to be. Juan Valdez is broke and lonely. The world has turned its back on him. Colombia has only one friend, but that friend is just as lonely; the United States has helped Colombia combat the narcotraffic and the guerrillas for some time. But it seems that we are alone in this fight.

 

I came to the United States, because I wanted to study, learn and immerse myself in a culture that appeared to me as perfect compared to the decadence in Colombia's culture and society. I stayed, because I had more chances of survival and of becoming a decent person here than to going back to Colombia with a degree but no job or future.

 

Many immigrants like myself, leave their countries and families, because we do not have any other choice. Poverty, violence and corruption kill anybody's dreams of achieving success in life. Most of us come here with the idea of making a better living for ourselves and our families. We come to work in anything at any price. We just want to be able to have what you have. Peace of mind and a loaf of bread on the table.

 

We are not stealing people's jobs, we are taking the jobs you don't want. We are not equal to economic recession, because many of us bring money from our countries and spend it here.

 

You may still feel that illegal immigration is part of the problem, but if it is, Why the government of the United States has not really stopped it? USA has all the technology, the human resources and the power to stop illegal immigration, but only until the prospect of terrorism in the US came to the scene, nothing really drastic had been done.

 

Economists around the globe, and even in the US, agree that migrant workers are an essential part of economic growth. That is why I think the government had not really done anything to stop illegal immigration before. The sustained growth of this country's economy is due in part to migrant labor. Observe any other country that has little migration issues. Their economy is usually slumping and they try to boost it by "inviting" migrants to their country (i.e. Canada, Australia, UK and New Zealand).

 

Maybe you still think I or my other friends should leave, but consider everything I have said in this long message. We do not come here to steal, we come here to work and survive. If you still don't want us here, then help our countries be better. Do not ignore us anymore...

[cgator]

I am sorry to here of your loss, it is a tragedy that goes on unnotice all too often.

 

As far as your personal story, it is not one to be criticized but applauded. You came to seek a better life, become educated and are striving to make the world around you a better place. If that is not the very definition of what this country was founded on, I have no idea what is.

[Das Texan]

I agree with what the gator has had to say completely.

 

 

My main problem with immigrants are those that I dont know how to word it without sounding like some sort of racist but I will give it a shot.

 

 

Those that come to America, refuse to learn the generally accepted language, feel they are above all others, etc....

 

Now I know this does not apply to all, and I am basing my experience on San Antonio only.

 

I offer two stories, one dealing with an immigrant, another with an affluent Mexican family.

 

First the affluent Mexican family. Every year around Easter especially, all the Mexican families of wealth make their way up to San Antonio to buy American goods and spend their money. While this is great for the economy, these people are the biggest a**holes in the world. They demean people working in stores, resturants, hotels, etc just because they are spending their money and helping the economy. They let their brats run wild in stores making a huge mess, they yap nonstop in Spanish and give absolutely no respect to anyone, period. Yet if you were to go visit their homeland they would most likely expect for you to respect their culture and homeland, etc....

 

 

Second the immigrant. They come over to the United States for various reasons. They refuse to assimilate into American society by learning the language, learning the customs, learning how to do well in society without accepting help from others and such. These people turn to senior citizens and have done nothing to leave their mark on society in any way. I say this only because when my family immigrated to Texas in the 1850s primarily from Germany, we were forced to learn English, we were forced to adopt the customs of society or fall aprt. Now you can say that times have changed, but have they really. It is the same dream that people come to the United States to achieve. It has not changed has it? Whereas my ancestors were put into a much more difficult position, where they didnt have everything handed to them and were forced to either adopt or fail; today we have become a society that is much more willing to accept other societies and customs. While this is a great thing, perhaps we should also realize that there are norms and customs that have been estbalished in this country. Now I realize that Texas was a Spanish colony at one time, that really does not change things from the standpoints I have laid out.

 

 

Its stories like Lcyberlina's which help us remember how special this nation has been for so many people. All of us essentially are immigrants at some point. To those that have worked hard and done the best they can to better themselves, great. Maybe its not my place to judge, but I have the right to express my views. Hopefully this is not too jumbled up and too much of a ramble.

[g8trz2003]

i like it das

[SorianoFanHFW]

"We are not stealing people's jobs, we are taking the jobs you don't want. We are not equal to economic recession, because many of us bring money from our countries and spend it here.

 

You may still feel that illegal immigration is part of the problem, but if it is, Why the government of the United States has not really stopped it? USA has all the technology, the human resources and the power to stop illegal immigration, but only until the prospect of terrorism in the US came to the scene, nothing really drastic had been done.

 

Economists around the globe, and even in the US, agree that migrant workers are an essential part of economic growth. That is why I think the government had not really done anything to stop illegal immigration before. The sustained growth of this country's economy is due in part to migrant labor."

 

Exactly, corporations, small business, EVERYONE needs and wants immigrant labor. They are not stealing "good jobs", they are taking our lousy jobs, and with their little money, spill it all back into the economy. Those are good a** americans, some just don't speak English too well.

 

Come on over to the land of oppurtunity. Maybe if America didn't totally exploit latin america, they wouldn't NEED to come here.

[SorianoFanHFW]

Second the immigrant. They come over to the United States for various reasons. They refuse to assimilate into American society by learning the language, learning the customs, learning how to do well in society without accepting help from others and such. These people turn to senior citizens and have done nothing to leave their mark on society in any way. I say this only because when my family immigrated to Texas in the 1850s primarily from Germany, we were forced to learn English, we were forced to adopt the customs of society or fall aprt. Now you can say that times have changed, but have they really. It is the same dream that people come to the United States to achieve. It has not changed has it? Whereas my ancestors were put into a much more difficult position, where they didnt have everything handed to them and were forced to either adopt or fail; today we have become a society that is much more willing to accept other societies and customs. While this is a great thing, perhaps we should also realize that there are norms and customs that have been estbalished in this country. Now I realize that Texas was a Spanish colony at one time, that really does not change things from the standpoints I have laid out.

"Second the immigrant. They come over to the United States for various reasons. They refuse to assimilate into American society by learning the language, learning the customs, learning how to do well in society without accepting help from others and such. These people turn to senior citizens and have done nothing to leave their mark on society in any way. I say this only because when my family immigrated to Texas in the 1850s primarily from Germany, we were forced to learn English, we were forced to adopt the customs of society or fall aprt."

 

That's simply not true. Way past the 1850s, German was the SECOND MOST SPOKEN LANGUAGE IN AMERICA. You cannot tell me that very few Germans speak German any more than latinos speak spanish or polish speak polish. My grandmother JUST SPOKE ITALIAN IN THE HOUSE and her whole family had to work their butts off in school to learn English. Same with my grandfather.

 

Of course my other side of the family came here to make money selling uniforms to the union during the civil war, and because they were western Europeans no one opposed their arrival.

 

People just don't like others different from them. You family was probably just as different as any immigrant, but now that you and I are "white" (assimilated) we just do not remember it that way. The struggles to learn English are gone, and so we conveniently forget our own assimilationist struggle.

 

Of course the goal is that everyone should speak English, but it takes people time, don't take it as an insult to your culture. Believe me, people don't like being stigmatized.

[Lcyberlina]

I have to agree with Das Texan... There are certain immigrants (BTW not only latinos) who come here and want to impose their culture and way of life rather than learning and adjusting to the American culture. We all came here because we wanted to live differently. However, some come here and just do the same crap they used to do in their own countries. Steal, disobey and disrupt. This is were chaos begins. Americans feel threatened and robbed of their culture and space.

 

I think we all can conserve our cultural differences, but to impose your culture on someone else is just plain criminal. We would be no different than our ancestors, which took the indians land and way of life and imposed their own. We all know how the story ends.

 

My husband, who happens to be a natural born American, but who is son of a cuban immigrant, puts it this way from our latino perspective. If we feel threatened or bothered by new immigrants such as the Haitians, which are not latinos and speak a different language, imagine how an English-speaking American feels when he or she can not even speak his/her language in their own country.

 

Why come here and try to live your life as if you were still in your country? What was the reason you left?

[SorianoFanHFW]

I have to disagree with you:

"Steal, disobey and disrupt. This is were chaos begins. Americans feel threatened and robbed of their culture and space. "

 

Let's stop immigration all together. Poorer people usually immigrate because things suck wherever they came from. Statistically, you will get more crime this way too. Also, if you look at imprisonment rates for latinos, it is in proportion (1 to 1) with the percentage of latinos in america, unlike Blacks, who are incarcerated at much higher rates.

 

Furthermore, were the Italians who came here who didn't speak english a bad addition? Hell no, like the irish they brought some crime, but they brought a lot of hard workers that built this nation.

 

America isn't robbed of culture or space. White people have segregated themselves in subburbs, we do not feel threatened. The "undesirables" are pretty much in the city, and unless they work, they won't leave either.

 

Immigration is not hurting this country, or robbing us of culture or language. That is just plain false.

[Lcyberlina]

Immigration is not hurting this country, or robbing us of culture or language. That is just plain false.

You completely misinterpreted my words. As you can see from my first post, I think immigration has had a positive effect in America's economy and society.

 

I just said that SOME, not all immigrants, come here to steal, disrupt, disobey and refuse to immerse themselves in the American culture. That is what causes so much discontent among the US nationals.

 

I also did not say, that immigration is robbing them of their culture or language, I said "They feel" this way.

 

I am a latina, 100%. I was not born here. English is my second language. I came here because I wanted to be better than what I was destined to become in Colombia. I did not come here just to make some dough. I came here to make a better living. That is the difference!

 

Some immigrants want to live in this country and "impose" their culture on everybody else. Some even refuse to learn the language and go to the extent of making others speak in their language, or else. If you have been to certain areas of Miami, you'll understand better of what I am talking about. I would feel pretty upset if we start getting a bunch of french-speaking migrants and be forced to learn that language in order to live in my community...

 

Sorianofan, please note that I did not say All, I said some. For that matter, I love the fact that we are able to experience such mix of cultural differences. Specially in NY where you can walk in the streets and in an afternoon meet the entire world population.

 

In essence, the majority of migrants come here and adjust. The proof is in the fact that even though your background is Italian, you feel pretty American, as your father or grandfather may feel as well. It is the same for others like me. We are not only migrants anymore, we are Americans. But it is this what makes us different from the "some" that I am talking about. This "some" feel that America owes them something, they come and take it without regard and they do it with an attitude.

[SorianoFanHFW]

Again, I must disagree on some points hey, its a free country!

 

I just said that SOME, not all immigrants, come here to steal, disrupt, disobey and refuse to immerse themselves in the American culture. That is what causes so much discontent among the US nationals.

Some natural born citizens steal, disrupt, disobey, and try not to immerse themselves in american culture...how about the KKK? And what culture in particular, white culture? Low socieconmic individuals "culture" is much different from steretypical white culture. Its not quite so black and white. The question is whether one can tolerate different cultures from one's own.

 

Yes I admit, I like when I go to a boston market that they understand my order, but in the most part the people who work their (usually latinos) know a minimal amount of english and could get my order. The "language" barrier does not ruin my day to day life, so I don't care if they speak soemthing else most of the time. They are immigrants. Immigrants on my italian side were the same way, their children learned english in school, and immigrants today are the same way. I cannot hold the two with different standards.

 

Some immigrants want to live in this country and "impose" their culture on everybody else. Some even refuse to learn the language and go to the extent of making others speak in their language, or else. If you have been to certain areas of Miami, you'll understand better of what I am talking about. I would feel pretty upset if we start getting a bunch of french-speaking migrants and be forced to learn that language in order to live in my community...

That's what happens in communities where all of these immigrants with the same culture and language are bunched up in the same place. Parts of NY are like this too (I live in an area of polish immigrants), but there is usually a minimal amount of english competency. furthermore, this "imposing" of culture is nothing new. Did you ever hear of "china town", "little italy", "arthur avenue", or anywhere else? Immigrants created their own centers within ny city, where if you wanted to get something there, be prepared to confront an entirely different culture. I got to chinatown all the time to get herbs, food, (and just recently acupuncture), and almost everyone there who is chinese speaks chinese, and or chinese immigrants. One can still get by fine and get what they need. Arthur avenue still has some guineas that can still speak and do speak italian :cool Nevertheless, getting along isn't impossible. So could I get by in an all french community? As much as I get by in chinatown at the very least.

Furthermore, white people as I said earlier, and all people pretty much, are segregated. This clash of cultures truly isn't a problem.

 

Sorianofan, please note that I did not say All, I said some. For that matter, I love the fact that we are able to experience such mix of cultural differences. Specially in NY where you can walk in the streets and in an afternoon meet the entire world population.

Point taken, I understand.

 

But it is this what makes us different from the "some" that I am talking about. This "some" feel that America owes them something, they come and take it without regard and they do it with an attitude.

Not being an immigrant, I really don't know of this attitude totally. Most immigrants I have seen want to make a living and make a better future. You say some don't have the proper attitude. Well, some Americans don't have the proper attitude and don't respect this nation. Half of this country doesn't vote, americans kill each other all the time...what respect? Black americans commit an improportional amount of arrestable crimes compared to all other populations. How about the respect then? I think the lack of respect transcends all socioeconomic classes, all ethnicities, and both immigrants and established americans.

 

Now if you believe it is the social welfare system in america that makes these people feel entitled to ensure easy living, that's a problem with all americans. We have become a lazy, complacent people. We want easy jobs and a lot of possesions. That's the dream of many an american. I find such an attitude in the immigrant population (within the few you are speaking of) no surprise, because such an attitude transcends all parts of our society. However, the polish that live on the floor above me (all 20 or more in 3 bedrooms) work their butt offs all times of the day and no matter the weather work. That's the sort of American america needs. My mother at a fourth of july celebration not too long ago was among some african immigrants yelling "freedom, freedom!" That's the sort of American america needs. People are lazy and don't have an rugged individualist attitude- a problem with all americans. That's why you will see large segments of certain socioeconomic classes as disadvantaged groups, because if you start with less and don't work like my neighbors, you get left behind.

 

Now I'm going off in a tangent!

[Lcyberlina]

Mr. Sorianofan, it seems you are contradicting yourself here. You posted this picture on another thread... Do you really think like this or were you just busting my balls????

[$7KiddMike7$]

(sigh)

[DurableTear]

Come on over to the land of oppurtunity. Maybe if America didn't totally exploit latin america, they wouldn't NEED to come here.

You know, that's very true.

 

Some countries in latin america are in such bad state because of the huge exploitation going on.

[Das Texan]

and some latin american countries are in such bad shape because past US regimes supported dictators and/or military uprisings in said nations.

[Lcyberlina]

Come on over to the land of oppurtunity.? Maybe if America didn't totally exploit latin america, they wouldn't NEED to come here.

You know, that's very true.

 

Some countries in latin america are in such bad state because of the huge exploitation going on. Ok... From the point of view of someone who has lived "the explotation" herself, let me clarify this for you. United States has not exploited any latin country. Everything bad that is going on in Latin America and other third world countries has nothing to do with the economic policies of the United States. If anything, the French and some other European countries take more advantage. I have one reason and one explanation for our poverty, violence and missery. CORRUPTION.

 

To be corrupt in the United States is very difficult and easily punished. In countries like Colombia it is the rule not the exception. Therefore, instead of spreading the wealth and creating a better socio-economic environment, the politicians and the rich, divide the cake amongst themselves and forget to even throw the leftovers to the poor. This is what creates the battle of classes and general discontent. More violence, crime and poverty is created.

 

The error of the United States and other first world countries is to want to install a capitalist system that is a carbon copy of the United States model. However, this capitalist model does not work when corruption is so deeply engrained and when there is no way of spreading the wealth to the poor with programs similar to Medicare and Social Security... We have none of that and probably never will. This is the main reason Latin America seems like a cancer impossible to cure to the United States and the rest of the world. Iraq is doomed to fail for the same reasons.

 

I am not saying that United States is completely innocent, because some private corporations do take advantage of the situation in those countries and get themselves a big piece of the cake. However, this has nothing to do with the United States government in most cases. If anything, United States throws billions of American dollars to help our doomed countries with fruitless results in the majority of cases. Colombia alone has received about 19 billion dollars of help since the start of the War on Drugs. No one can say this country has exploit my country (Colombia), because if it was not for Americans, Colombia would be a communist regime or worse, the narcotrafficants would have taken over the government and no one would have been left alive.

[Das Texan]

i am thinking more along the lines of providing weapons and/or training to the gurellia forces... I am trying to recall now the exact countries but I am drawing El Salvador, Guatemala and other countries further north of Columbia....

 

I am far from an expert on Latin American policies, especially from a military standpoint, cause I just personally find military exploits to be boring and blah....

 

perhaps explotation is a bad choice of words, except in the economic sense...

 

 

i agree the problems in latin america stem from the corruption already in place there...and the point you raise about us wanting to implement a carbon copy of our system is the exact reason why Iraq is doomed to be a miserable failure in terms of enacting a government the way 'we' see fit. Its just not going to occur.

 

 

For those in office to think it will work is just ignorant on their part...but do we expect less?

[Lcyberlina]

I know... It seems that all the experts in economics are missing in this government...

[Das Texan]

what absolutely cracks me up is the energy policy of this administration and the methods they use to concoct the policy.

[Lcyberlina]

It is necessary for Colombia to get out of the hole, that they support our President. For those who do not know his name. It is Alvaro Uribe. Like the commet Halley, good presidents for countries like mine happen only once in a lifetime. Alvaro is one of those. Unfortunately, the corruption I am talking about has prevent him from doing a lot of good things. Nevertheless, the man has done everything we should have done in the past 4 decades and for the first time in years, we feel some kind of hope.

 

Our president would not have been able to accomplish some success if it was not for the ever present help of the US. US troops do not engage in active battle, but they do train the few and the brave Colombian troops. Plus, the military intelligence and equipment that they offer has enabled our troops to surmount the many difficulties we encounter against the Narco-guerrillas, who at one time could outspend our army by triples. I wish we did not have to wage such a violent war, but these communist guerrillas leave us no choice. For those who believe in peaceful solutions when battling terrorists, read more about Colombia's fruitless efforts in the previous governments. Our last president practically gave half of Colombia to the FARC (Spanish initials for Revolutionary Army Force of Colombia), a communist terrorist organization that has been killing Colombians for four decades, in order to have "peace talks" with them.

 

The only way to get out of our situation is to eliminate these groups, by force or if they surrender and become normal citizens (which I don't think it can ever happen). This is why the United States help in our case has been crucial. Whatever the underlying reasons for helping us are, I do not care. I would give everything I have in order to see Colombia in peace some day....

[SorianoFanHFW]

Mr. Sorianofan, it seems you are contradicting yourself here. You posted this picture on another thread... Do you really think like this or were you just busting my balls????

 

It is called satire, did you ever read the article that comes with the picture?

"http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

this is a funny article"-in my post where i included the picture...

If you read my posts, it is clear I'm not against immigration. The picture is SUPPOSED to be ridiculous, showing an inept american's perceived paranoia.

 

Instability is convenient for American interests. Perpetuating instability is as old as the first days of free trade after the days of Bolivar. Its keeps us dominant.

[Lcyberlina]

Now, I think we are getting off the subject here. However, it is interesting to talk about economics. I rather think about economics than think about what happened...

 

Anyway... The United States of America has in establishment the most successful socio-economic system in the world. However, some economic policies installed by different past governments have had negative effects in the growth and wealth of this country. Even though, recession in the United States means you have to buy more expensive or that a few may lose their jobs, while in Latin America a recession is catastrophic. Nevertheless, a government that overspends (deficit spending for the economics freaks) must be carefully watched and in some instances must be stopped before it gets out of hand.

 

In a past thread someone was arguing that the president had nothing to do with the current economic state of the country. They might be right, but not all the way. Alan Greenspan has the power of making decisions about the interest rates ONLY. He has no power over the tax policies or other economic strategies that the president might install. The president can decide, with congress approval, whether to give people tax cuts or to levy the taxes. He can decide if he wants to use a deficit spending or a budget constraint policy. In other words, the President does have an effect on the economy state of the country, may be not on his present term, but in the near future. We may be living the economic policy mistakes of another president. One who thought deficit spending was the key to take the country out of a slump (sounds like Bush Dad to me).

[SorianoFanHFW]

Can you at least acknowledge that I wasn't being a hypocrite by posting that picture! It would be nice

 

Americans have it better than anyone else, but that doesn't mean trade deficits and deficit spending are going to continue a good standard of living for us.

 

BTW cyberlina, you would not like the Arnie Schwarzennegger movie (collateral damage) about him going into columbia to kill a terrorist, it puts those FARC guys in sympathetic light.

[Lcyberlina]

Can you at least acknowledge that I wasn't being a hypocrite by posting that picture! It would be nice

 

Americans have it better than anyone else, but that doesn't mean trade deficits and deficit spending are going to continue a good standard of living for us.

 

BTW cyberlina, you would not like the Arnie Schwarzennegger movie (collateral damage) about him going into columbia to kill a terrorist, it puts those FARC guys in sympathetic light.

I was just joking around when I posted that thing... I know how you stand on the Immigration issues. You are Ok with me :thumbup

 

About Arnie's movie. It is just a piece of crap. The usual car blowing-I can save a country all by myself-movie. I actually thought it exagerated the power of those losers by suggesting they could bring the war to the US... That is a long shot! The FARC do not care about killing Americans here... They just want to take over the government of Colombia and follow Castro's steps... Nothing more. Are they willing to kill Americans who stand on their way... Of course. But that is why I do not recommend to any of you to travel to my country. Specially you Sorianofan... You look like the perfect Gringo target... :shifty

[SorianoFanHFW]

LOL! They would be after me in a second. There's so much to see in America, I have no interest in going abroad.

 

The usual car blowing-I can save a country all by myself-movie.

What do you have against rambo 3?

[Lcyberlina]

LOL! They would be after me in a second. There's so much to see in America, I have no interest in going abroad.

 

The usual car blowing-I can save a country all by myself-movie.

What do you have against rambo 3? Nothing... Great piece of crap! Perfect for the guys to get a dose of Macho excitement...