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Red Sox/ Yanks comparison


MVPosey

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position yanks/ sox/ edge

C. Posada/ Varitek/ Yanks

1B. Giambi/ Millar/ Yanks

2B. Soriano/ Reese/ Sox (Soriano's glove hurts the Yanks more than his bat helps)

3B. Boone/ Billy Mueller/ Sox

SS. Jeter/ Nomar/ push

LF. Matsui/ Ramirez/ Sox

CF. Williams/ Damon/ Yanks

RF. Sheffield/ Nixon/ Yanks

DH. Lofton/ Ortiz/ Sox

SP. Brown/ Pedro/ Sox

SP. Mussina/ Schilling/ Yanks

SP. Vazquez/ Lowe/ Yanks

SP. Contreras/ Wakefield/ Yanks

SP. Lieber/ ???/ Yanks

Bullpen: yanks

manager: yanks

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Bernie will probably DH, but Lofton still has an edge over Damon.

 

Soriano is a HOF caliber player as of now...reese is definitely not better. People forget Soriano's great play in game 7 against the Sox.

 

Schilling is probably going to out perform mussina, but not brown. Mussina will be given the day one start, so he's the "one starter", and pedro is the better of the two. but i would take brown over schilling.

 

 

however, you still demonstrate that the yankees clearly have an edge.

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You add nothing new to the argument. PEdro is good, but he has been injured for 3 straight years, compared to Brown's 2 out of the last 3 years. Vazquez off astroturf has a better era than Schilling.

 

I would take Brown Vazquez over Pedro Schilling any day. And then when you add mussina contreras and lieber to lowe wakefield and kim, it is obvious the yankees rotation is on paper vastly superior.

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These two teams are going to be very close. I think the 2003 RSox were playing better ball by the end of the year, but leaving Pedro too long costed them a trip to the WS.

 

This is definately the best division to watch next year, I look for an AL Champ matchup repeat.

 

I know something for sure, one of these two team will win the AL East and the other will be the AL Wild Card team.

 

Reese over Soriano? No way Jose

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I know I'm acting like an arrogant jerk, but unless someone shows me how a team which had a worse team last year, and less additions this offseason some how magically is equivalent or better than the yankees, I have to keep saying the Sox are inferior. The Yankees offense will perform better, its pitching is superior, and its defense is equally as crappy. I have compared runs scored, runs given up by pitching, wins, and player vs. player analysis. The yankees definitely have a better team, hands down, there is nothing more to it. Can freak injuries happen? Of course, they can also happen to boston. But on paper, the yankee team is absolutely spectacular- only joe torre's crappy managing and stein's and cashman's stupid moves can ruin this team...that or three starters going onto the DL.

 

stuff I have posted previously to do with this subject:

okay let's look at their careers, shall we?

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/b/brownke01.shtml

Brownie^^^

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schilcu01.shtml

Schilling

 

Schilling has a career era 3.33, but has had 4 years with injuries.

 

Brown has a career era of 3.16, and has had 5 injury years.

 

However with the dodgers he was injured twice, one season with 115 innings and a 2.65 era and another with 4.81.

 

Both are injury risk and the red sox will more likely abuse schilling's arm than the yanks will abuse brown's.

 

so the question is, which pitcher is better as of late?

since 1996 the eras have been:

Brown Schilling

1.89 3.19

2.69 2.97

2.38 3.25

3.00 3.54

2.58 3.81

2.65 2.98

4.81 3.23

2.39 2.95

 

 

Brown had definitley been the far superior pitcher.

 

You site that schilling has won 22 games, but he has only 163 career wins and brown has 197. With the Yankees, brown not only win 200, but with run support, has a shot at 230-240 if he doesn't get injured- a sure fire HOFer with his track record. Schilling, free of injury, has an outside chance at 200, bt with sox run support, he can do it too. However, both are old and are injur risk. Pitchers are not predictable, who saw Clemens getting injured in 2002 or pettitte for that matter. YEt, is pettitte an injury risk? In my eyes, in reality brown is only slightly a larger risk than schilling when all factors are assessed.

 

Brown has definitely been the better pitcher and has always been. I would take brown and vazquez over one schilling. I would take one brown over one schilling. They both passed their physicals, the rest at this point is chance.

C

Jorge Posada vs. Jason Varitek

edge: J.P.

 

1B

Jason Giambi vs. Kevin Millar

edge: J.G.

 

2b

Alfonso Soriano vs god knows who

edge: A.S.

 

SS

Derek Jeter vs Nomar Garciaparra

edge: D.J.

I would usually not say this, but Derek's obp is .060 better, and Nomar hit in the mid .200s out of Fenway (.240 something I beleive.) He needs the monster or he's useless...Both are bad defensively, but Jeter is better, so Jeter does beat out Nomar.

 

3B

Aaron Boone vs. Bill Mueller

edge: B.M. Boone blows

 

RF

Gary Sheffield vs. Trot Nixon

edge: G.S.

 

CF

Kenny Lofton vs. Johnny Damon

edge K.L.

.801 ops 30 sb 9 cs Lofton

.750 ops 30 sb 6 cs Damon

 

LF

Hideki Matsui vs Manny Ramirez

edge M.R.

 

DH

Bernie Williams vs. David Ortiz

edge: tied

Bernie had 7 straight seasons with a better than a .900 ops until his injury in april. Ortiz had a career year and has never exhibited that sort of ability before. He's good, but a .800 something ops kind of good, not .900 something. Ortiz might have a slight edge, but he's simply not proven, and at this point Bernie should be better.

 

Starting pitching

Mike Mussina vs. Pedro Martinez

edge P.M

Pedro will win about as many games, but will pitch about 180 innings.

 

Kevin Brown vs Curt Schilling

edge K.B.

when both are healthy, brown was always better than schilling.

 

Javy Vazquez vs. Derek Lowe

edge J.V.

better of the two ground ball pitchers, better stuff

 

Jose Contreras vs. Tim Wakefield

edge J.C.

Jose has a low 2 era as a starter, but wakefield as a starter will give you about a 4 era and 200 ip.

 

Jon Lieber/David Wells vs. B Y Kim/Bronson Arroyo/Ramiro Mendoza

edge J.L./D.W.

Kim gave the fans the finger because he hated boston so much, and with lieber and wells fully recovered from surgery, the threesome in the 5 starter hole are inferior to the Yankees.

 

Bullpen

Closer

Mariano Rivera vs Keith Foulke

edge M.R.

 

RHP

Flash Gordon vs. Scott Williamson

edge F.G.

 

LHP

Felix Heredia vs. Alan Embree

edge tie, Heredia came off a great season, but Embree has been a fairly consistant LH fireballer

 

Quantrill vs Timlin

edge Quantrill, both have AL experience, but Timlin has not been as good as quantrill

 

Gabe White vs. Scott Sauerbeck

edge: G.W....the best of the two crappy guys

 

The Yankees have a superior bullpen, better starting, and better position players. Neither bench is going to put one over the other, and the only minor league system worst than the yankees is the red sox.

 

Edge: Yankees

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I know I'm acting like an arrogant jerk, but unless someone shows me how a team which had a worse team last year, and less additions this offseason some how magically is equivalent or better than the yankees, I have to keep saying the Sox are inferior. The Yankees offense will perform better, its pitching is superior, and its defense is equally as crappy. I have compared runs scored, runs given up by pitching, wins, and player vs. player analysis. The yankees definitely have a better team, hands down, there is nothing more to it. Can freak injuries happen? Of course, they can also happen to boston. But on paper, the yankee team is absolutely spectacular- only joe torre's crappy managing and stein's and cashman's stupid moves can ruin this team...that or three starters going onto the DL.

 

stuff I have posted previously to do with this subject:

okay let's look at their careers, shall we?

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/b/brownke01.shtml

Brownie^^^

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/schilcu01.shtml

Schilling

 

Schilling has a career era 3.33, but has had 4 years with injuries.

 

Brown has a career era of 3.16, and has had 5 injury years.

 

However with the dodgers he was injured twice, one season with 115 innings and a 2.65 era and another with 4.81.

 

Both are injury risk and the red sox will more likely abuse schilling's arm than the yanks will abuse brown's.

 

so the question is, which pitcher is better as of late?

since 1996 the eras have been:

Brown Schilling

1.89 3.19

2.69 2.97

2.38 3.25

3.00 3.54

2.58 3.81

2.65 2.98

4.81 3.23

2.39 2.95

 

 

Brown had definitley been the far superior pitcher.

 

You site that schilling has won 22 games, but he has only 163 career wins and brown has 197. With the Yankees, brown not only win 200, but with run support, has a shot at 230-240 if he doesn't get injured- a sure fire HOFer with his track record. Schilling, free of injury, has an outside chance at 200, bt with sox run support, he can do it too. However, both are old and are injur risk. Pitchers are not predictable, who saw Clemens getting injured in 2002 or pettitte for that matter. YEt, is pettitte an injury risk? In my eyes, in reality brown is only slightly a larger risk than schilling when all factors are assessed.

 

Brown has definitely been the better pitcher and has always been. I would take brown and vazquez over one schilling. I would take one brown over one schilling. They both passed their physicals, the rest at this point is chance.

Pedro/ Brown:

k/9 IP 9.93/ 7.89

G/F 1.14/ 3.327

IP/HR 26.7 19.2

IP/BB 3.97 3.77

K/BB 4.38 3.330

now if you can see, Pedro clearly beats brown

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Dude, PEdro is the most dominant pitcher in history, but I would rather have brown for 220 innings than pedro for 180.

 

Minus both of their major injury years, the fact remains brown will give you pedroesque performance for over 200 IP and Pedro cannot reach that point anymore.

 

Anyhow, this was not even the question. It was a schilling brown comparison, and brown is clearly better.

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yes, clearly brown > schilling. the yanks' best pitcher is better than the sox' second-best pitcher. so what?

 

but when comparing the teams, the premise that mussina is better than kevin brown is flawed, and it's really just an attempt to add another "yanks" edge to that list up there. the rationale you use to merit another "yanks" by comparing brown to schilling is a little annoying. it's silly if you ask me, since there's no question that the yanks are better than the sox, regardless.

 

brown < pedro

mussina < schilling

vazquez > lowe

contreras > wakefield

lieber ??? bk??

 

 

you also compared brown's and pedro's last three seasons, noting that pedro was injured in all three and brown was injured in only two of three. here are the stats for those three seasons:

 

PEDRO:

 

  Season  TM  G  GS  CG SHO  IP   H   R  ER  HR  BB  SO   W   L   SVHLDBLSV  ERA2001Bos181810116.28433315251637300--2.392002Bos303020199.11446250134023920400--2.262003Bos292930186.2147524674720614400--2.22Career--35528841152079.0155366759714955424261666731412.58

 

BROWN:

 

  Season  TM  G  GS  CG SHO  IP   H   R  ER  HR  BB  SO   W   L   SVHLDBLSV  ERA2001LA201910115.294413483810410400--2.652002LA17100063.2683634923583401--4.812003LA323200211.01846756115618514900--2.39Career--45144172173051.0284012351072189847226419713102--3.16

 

in those 3 seasons:

pedro: 502 and 2/3 IP

brown: 390 and 1/3 IP

 

your point was?

 

 

Dude, PEdro is the most dominant pitcher in history, but I would rather have brown for 220 innings than pedro for 180.

 

Minus both of their major injury years, the fact remains brown will give you pedroesque performance for over 200 IP and Pedro cannot reach that point anymore.

 

your suggestion that pedro will only pitch 180 innings while brown will pitch 220 innings is so off that i'm tempted not to even waste my time pasting more stats. your suggestion that a healthy pedro can't top 200 innings is equally absurd. prior to those injury seasons, pedro consistently pitched in the 220 IP range.

 

the fact is, a 32 year old pedro martinez is much more likely to pitch more innings than a 38 year old kevin brown.

 

i think anyone would take pedro over brown in a heartbeat. i'm sorry, but you're being unbelievably biased this time.

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A factor that a lot of people don't think about with the Red Sox is that guys like Mueller and Nixon and Varitek and Ortiz and Millar all had career years last year, so I would expect a significant drop off from the Red Sox in terms of offense. They still are going to score a lot of runs, but they won't be able to match their numbers from last year.

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Sox rotation > Yanks

 

Period.

I was about to disagree with you but then I looked at the stats and saw that you are clearly right.

2003 stats:

Mussina/ Schilling:

k/ bb 4.88/ 6.06

g/ f 1.13/ 1.05

Vazquez/ Lowe

k/ bb 4.23/ 1.53

g/ f 0.83/ 3.92

As you can see, Schilling is better than Mussina. He is only slightly lower in grounder to flyball ratio, but schilling has a much higher strikeout to walk ratio. Also, Vazquez and Lowe were about equal in 2003. Vazquez had a much better strikeout to walk ratio, but Lowe has the best grounder to fly ball ratio in baseball while Vazquez is a lousy .83.

Over the last 3 seasons, Vazquez's g/f has slipped from 1.51 to 1.28, from 1.28 to .94, and from .94 to .83.

So Lowe's grounder to fly ratio more than makes up for his lack of control.

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yes, clearly brown > schilling.? the yanks' best pitcher is better than the sox' second-best pitcher.? so what?

 

but when comparing the teams, the premise that mussina is better than kevin brown is flawed, and it's really just an attempt to add another "yanks" edge to that list up there.? the rationale you use to merit another "yanks" by comparing brown to schilling is a little annoying.? it's silly if you ask me, since there's no question that the yanks are better than the sox, regardless.

 

brown < pedro

mussina < schilling

vazquez > lowe

contreras > wakefield

lieber ??? bk??

 

 

you also compared brown's and pedro's last three seasons, noting that pedro was injured in all three and brown was injured in only two of three.? here are the stats for those three seasons:

 

PEDRO:

 

  Season  TM  G  GS  CG SHO  IP   H   R  ER  HR  BB  SO   W   L   SVHLDBLSV  ERA2001Bos181810116.28433315251637300--2.392002Bos303020199.11446250134023920400--2.262003Bos292930186.2147524674720614400--2.22Career--35528841152079.0155366759714955424261666731412.58

 

BROWN:

 

  Season  TM  G  GS  CG SHO  IP   H   R  ER  HR  BB  SO   W   L   SVHLDBLSV  ERA2001LA201910115.294413483810410400--2.652002LA17100063.2683634923583401--4.812003LA323200211.01846756115618514900--2.39Career--45144172173051.0284012351072189847226419713102--3.16

 

in those 3 seasons:

pedro: 502 and 2/3 IP

brown: 390 and 1/3 IP

 

your point was?

 

 

Dude, PEdro is the most dominant pitcher in history, but I would rather have brown for 220 innings than pedro for 180.

 

Minus both of their major injury years, the fact remains brown will give you pedroesque performance for over 200 IP and Pedro cannot reach that point anymore.

 

 

 

the fact is, a 32 year old pedro martinez is much more likely to pitch more innings than a 38 year old kevin brown.

 

i think anyone would take pedro over brown in a heartbeat. i'm sorry, but you're being unbelievably biased this time. Realistically alkazoid, Torre is probably going to use mussina as the game one starter to be perfectly honest.

 

And to be perfectly honest, going starter for starter, the yankee rotation is better. Disregarding for injury proneness (knowing knuckleballers and mike mussinas aren't injury prone while the Pedros and Contrerases are...), Lieber would probably be better than Kim because he has increased velocity, Contreras over wakefield, and, Vazquez over lowe. That's 3 starters, and the yankees have 4 starters with 1 starter caliber stuff. When one does not cut it starter to starter, the yankee rotation still is overally better on paper, there should be no doubt. However, you agree with me on this point.

 

your suggestion that pedro will only pitch 180 innings while brown will pitch 220 innings is so off that i'm tempted not to even waste my time pasting more stats.? your suggestion that a healthy pedro can't top 200 innings is equally absurd.? prior to those injury seasons, pedro consistently pitched in the 220 IP range.

Pedro has been healthy for two years now and has not topped 200 and brown was rushed to recover from surgery after 2001 and has become better and 2003 and guess what, he's brown of old. I don't believe my suggestion is so ridiculous.

I am not trying to be dishonest. Pedro is the better pitcher, no doubt, but Brown is still incredible and will pitch more enemies. Forget age, look at last season. Pedro has been showing declining endurance and has definitely reach a turning point in his career- he's no longer a "work horse." However, Brown was always a workhorse, had an injury and when time permitted for full recovery he's a workhorse again. That's the difference.

 

edit: A class was canceled so I'm quickly writing this: In my honest opinion, the best pitcher in history is Pedro Martinez. However, if one assesses the fact that he seems to be breaking down at an incredible rate (I say this because we are talking about pedro, a lost of about 10 or so innings a season continously is a major break down for an all time great) while Brown as finally recovered from a surgery he rushed to recover from. I see no reason why Brown should have continued troubles next season aside from his elbow (which put him onto the DL), but Pedro's shoulder and so on seem to be more highly suspect at this point. Look at PEdro's 2003 postseason. He said it was because he was playing hurt. He can be telling the truth. His innings went down last season and his WHIP went up. By the end, it took until about 5 innings for him to be able to throw close to the mid 90s. I beleive Pedro is telling the truth when he said he was playing hurt, and with the steady decline in innings and no sign of any true recovery, Pedro in my mind (and I can be totally wrong) is a major health threat, even more so then the now recovered brown. Would I take Pedro over one start than Brown? Yes, definitely, in a second. However, for a full season such as next? I'm not entirely sure. Probably Pedro now that I think of it again, but there are legitimate concerns nonetheless.

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Sox rotation > Yanks

 

Period.

I was about to disagree with you but then I looked at the stats and saw that you are clearly right.

2003 stats:

Mussina/ Schilling:

k/ bb 4.88/ 6.06

g/ f 1.13/ 1.05

Vazquez/ Lowe

k/ bb 4.23/ 1.53

g/ f 0.83/ 3.92

As you can see, Schilling is better than Mussina. He is only slightly lower in grounder to flyball ratio, but schilling has a much higher strikeout to walk ratio. Also, Vazquez and Lowe were about equal in 2003. Vazquez had a much better strikeout to walk ratio, but Lowe has the best grounder to fly ball ratio in baseball while Vazquez is a lousy .83.

Over the last 3 seasons, Vazquez's g/f has slipped from 1.51 to 1.28, from 1.28 to .94, and from .94 to .83.

So Lowe's grounder to fly ratio more than makes up for his lack of control. Lowe wouldn't last a day as a groundballer on astroturf...look how he did in seattle years ago. That's the main difference, but Vazquez on grass and his era is about a full earned run lower than Lowe's. Case closed.

 

People forget that Pedro Schilling does not compensate for Lowe, Wakefield, and Kim. And Lowe is definitely not better than Vazquez. Lowe had a 4.47 era!

 

When adjusted for ballpark effects, the adjusted era of Vazquez and Schilling is apart by 6, a whopping 4% difference (schilling technically being 4% better)! The difference between Vazquez and Lowe is 31% (Vazquez being better.)

 

Vazquez is young, but it is really not age that matters, but the fact that he's getting better and better. Pedro and Schilling are probably not going to improve (not that Mussina and Brown will), but Vazquez has a lot of room for it and he's already so good.

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