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the astros have overrated clemens and pettitte and all of the sudden they are better than oakland? no way in hell.

 

harden is going to be big. BIG!!!

I did a post not to long ago about how the Asstros are really overrated and well they are and now their rotation is getting a lot of attention when it shouldnt be all it has is big names 2 and 1 that will be a major star in Oswalt. But Clemens is done the yankees with clemens, pettite, mussina, wells, contreras had a better rotation IMO and the marlins still beat them ( nothing against the yanks) . I can't wait to watch this team suck @$$

With Burnett back, the factor is whether your starters can stay clear of injury and if pavano will become any good. He was great in the postseason when it mattered, but he was otherwise never a dominant pitcher.

 

I am very conflicted about this subject concerning best rotation. When one assumes there will be no injury, you have to go with the Yankees, however in reality Oakland has shown some major consistency and harden is very underrated.

Once people get out of their Yankees fetish they could see that the Astros don't even have a top 5 rotation. Pettitte isn't that great, and there's no reasoning why he would perform better at home (he hasn't done well at the Ballpark in Arlington, and his family and friends haven't seen him in NY?) Clemens will put in only 20 starts of his degraded stuff. Miller hasn't shown his promise.

 

Nor the Phillies. Look at Milton's numbers! Even when injury-free!

With Burnett back, the factor is whether your starters can stay clear of injury and if pavano will become any good. He was great in the postseason when it mattered, but he was otherwise never a dominant pitcher.

Pavano was perhaps the Marlin's best pitcher all year. He was consistent, injury-free, and always kept the games close. He was the MLB's best fifth starter last year hands down. And the Cubs and A's are 1-2 not 3 and 5!

 

 

My list would be:

1. A's

2. Cubs

3. Red Sox

4. Marlins

5. Yankees if injury free which will not happen/Astros if Yankees aren't injury free.

 

1. A's: This is hands down, the best rotation in baseball. They lost a little in Ted Lilly, but hey, they replace every pitcher they lose, it seems with a better one or at least as good as the previous. (See Jason Isringhausen to Kieth Foulke)

 

2. Cubs: Self Explanatory. No team in the league has the one-two punch the Cubs do. And Clement and Zambrano ain't half bad when it comes down to it. Mark Prior is at the same talent level as J-beck, but J-Beck has got the fire and that is why he is going to be better than Prior. Wood is just consistent and dirty with his curveball.

 

3. Red Sox: Two future HOF, consistent third starter, knuckleballer, and a good fifth starter gives the Red Sox some of the most varied rotation in baseball. Pedro and Schilling with their fastballs, curves, sliders, and changes, are all HOF worthy as each aims for 200 wins. Derek Lowe has been very consistent over is Sox career. And then comes some variety, a knuckleballer who is very good at what he does and a submarine pitcher who has shown greatness but is somewhat inconsistent (Not to mention flagrant )

 

4. Marlins: The talent level is the highest in the MLB today. J-Beck's great fastball, dirty curve, and cocky attitude point all signs of being a great, if not legendary. pitcher. You know what is scary? A.J. is supposed to be BETTER than JBeck. Penny has a great curveball, but sometimes is too consciencous of himself and his velocity, and tends to overthrow. Willis, has all signs of being a great pitcher, putting himself with the likes of Vida Blue and Fernando Valenzuela, except all signs point toward it not being a fluke. Pavano is the best 5th starter in the league hands down.

 

5a. Yankees: Kevin Brown, Javier Vasquez, Mike Mussina, Jon Lieber, and Jose Contreras. In name, they sound like the best rotation in the league. But Jon Lieber hasn't played in over a year, Contreras was shaky all of last year, Mussina is well, Mussina, and Brown isn't invincible. Brown's groundball pitching pits one of the worse fielding teams against the ball. Their best fielder, Aaron Boone. When he was in the national league there were clearly two guys in front of him in terms of defense and offense: Mike Lowell and Scott Rolen.

 

5b. Astros: Overrated as Peattite and Clemens make for nice on paper but then it comes down to this. Their best pitcher, Roy Oswalt, has a propensity for groin injury that is unbelievable. Peattite is a good post-season pitcher in a pitchers park, and there is no guarenteeing he will shut down national league hitting. Same for Clemens as well as he is old and pulling a Nolan Ryan on this one. Just retire all ready and take the hummer! The other pitchers whether it be Miller, Fernandez, or Robertson, the fourth and fifth spots will be kind of iffy in the season.

Pavano was pretty consistent (save June). Below-average consistent though. A 92 ERA+ last year. (100 is average)

Pavano was like a Jeff Suppan last year, but Suppan has better stats in the national league. So unless, you consider Suppan an anchor of a rotation better than the yankees, you are out of your mind!

 

1. A's: This is hands down, the best rotation in baseball. They lost a little in Ted Lilly, but hey, they replace every pitcher they lose, it seems with a better one or at least as good as the previous. (See Jason Isringhausen to Kieth Foulke)

First we are talking about starting rotations, and now you bring up the As changing closers? How is this related? Nevertheless they have harden as their 5 starter (and he has great potential) and they nabbed one of your good starters (Mark Redman who pitched about as many innings as pavano but had a 3.59 era...) In all liklihood, this is the best rotation in baseball because of its age, though it is not the most skilled rotation in baseball.

 

2. Cubs: Self Explanatory. No team in the league has the one-two punch the Cubs do. And Clement and Zambrano ain't half bad when it comes down to it. Mark Prior is at the same talent level as J-beck, but J-Beck has got the fire and that is why he is going to be better than Prior. Wood is just consistent and dirty with his curveball.

 

Wood however is overrated. Sure he throws fast, but look at his era. Look how their "unstoppable" rotation worked in the postseason. Prior will be one of the best next year, but the rest of the rotation is not the quality of that (in my honest opinion) of the Yankees.

 

3. Red Sox: Two future HOF, consistent third starter, knuckleballer, and a good fifth starter gives the Red Sox some of the most varied rotation in baseball. Pedro and Schilling with their fastballs, curves, sliders, and changes, are all HOF worthy as each aims for 200 wins. Derek Lowe has been very consistent over is Sox career. And then comes some variety, a knuckleballer who is very good at what he does and a submarine pitcher who has shown greatness but is somewhat inconsistent (Not to mention flagrant )

Schilling is not a hall of famer. He has only 163 career wins if my memory serves me well. Derek Lowe has shown that 2002 was a fluke, but he is still a formidable 3 starter. However, Pedro Schilling Lowe Wakefield (who has a high career era and a high era last year) and Kim (who is a notorious anti-clutch choker who had had about a 3.60 era as a starter) is not some Godly rotation. Their front end is great, but their rotation has no lefties (like the yankees), but this is not of consequence. What is of consequence is the fact that Lowe, wakefield and kim is a medicore backend of a rotation at best. Wakefield for all we know can have a 5 era next year. The rotation is good, because of Pedro Schilling, but it is not better than the Yankees.

 

4. Marlins: The talent level is the highest in the MLB today. J-Beck's great fastball, dirty curve, and cocky attitude point all signs of being a great, if not legendary. pitcher. You know what is scary? A.J. is supposed to be BETTER than JBeck. Penny has a great curveball, but sometimes is too consciencous of himself and his velocity, and tends to overthrow. Willis, has all signs of being a great pitcher, putting himself with the likes of Vida Blue and Fernando Valenzuela, except all signs point toward it not being a fluke. Pavano is the best 5th starter in the league hands down.

 

Lieber, Kim, Harden...all better 5 starters than Pavano. Beckett is yet to pitch a full season. Burnett's lowest adjusted era after a full season is 121 and the lowest of his career is 123. Who is better in the Yankee rotation? Jose Contreras (133), Mike Mussina (129), Kevin Brown (163), and Javy Vazquez (153). Beckett's 132 adjusted era is worse than 3 yankee starters. Dontrelle Willis (I love the guy) has a 122, and that's worse than 4 yankee starters. So certainly, to say that the Marlins rotation overall (though not postseason, I would say that they were certainly clutch, but I am speaking of the totality of a pitcher's skill) is not better than the Yankees, so to put them ahead is dishonest.

 

5a. Yankees: Kevin Brown, Javier Vasquez, Mike Mussina, Jon Lieber, and Jose Contreras. In name, they sound like the best rotation in the league. But Jon Lieber hasn't played in over a year, Contreras was shaky all of last year, Mussina is well, Mussina, and Brown isn't invincible. Brown's groundball pitching pits one of the worse fielding teams against the ball. Their best fielder, Aaron Boone. When he was in the national league there were clearly two guys in front of him in terms of defense and offense: Mike Lowell and Scott Rolen.

Jon Lieber has already started pitching last year and has been fully ready since august. Furthermore, he will be 2 years removed from TJ surgey come April and he is already throwing harder than he ever has. Contreras was not shaky all year, he was injured, much like Beckett and Burnett were. However, when he did start he was hands down better than the both of them. In a full season, he might still be better than both of them because even though his era is inflated by his injury and horrible relief appearances, his adjusted era is still better than any marlin starter. Contreras is a major assett because he might have the nastiest stuff in the majors...but he also has nasty control too, but his era is great and as a starter it is ridiculously (sp) good. Kevin Brown is a groundballer, but he also strikes a lot of people out too. Boone's range factor is the best of all AL 3rd basemen.

 

5b. Astros: Overrated as Peattite and Clemens make for nice on paper but then it comes down to this. Their best pitcher, Roy Oswalt, has a propensity for groin injury that is unbelievable. Peattite is a good post-season pitcher in a pitchers park, and there is no guarenteeing he will shut down national league hitting. Same for Clemens as well as he is old and pulling a Nolan Ryan on this one. Just retire all ready and take the hummer! The other pitchers whether it be Miller, Fernandez, or Robertson, the fourth and fifth spots will be kind of iffy in the season.

The astros are definitely the worst of this bunch.

 

So my top 3 rotations are:

1. Oakland As

2. Yankees

3. Red Sox

 

The Yankees starting rotation (as debated in other threads) is better than the Red Sox, because Schilling is not any younger (or a better pitcher) than Brown, and while brown is probably going to be a hall of famer is he wins about 40 more games, schilling will not be. Pedro is the ebst pitcher in major league history and he is becoming a free agent, but last year he had his highest WHIP in years and his innings declined yet again. I'm confident he will have the AL era crown again, but there's not much more I can say for the man. The Yankees backend of the Rotation (Vazquez, Contreras, Lieber) is superior to (Lowe, Wakefield, Kim.) Lieber's last season with injury had an adjusted era of 109. Lowe last year had 105. Out of the bunch, Kim is the best (this is pretty scary), but he seems to blow games only when it truly counts (and he has done this several times.) Vazquez and Contreras would be 1 starters on some teams, none of the Red Sox backend contains a 1 starter.

 

The End (this was long, so there you go.)

Pavano was like a Jeff Suppan last year, but Suppan has better stats in the national league. So unless, you consider Suppan an anchor of a rotation better than the yankees, you are out of your mind!

 

 

4. Marlins: The talent level is the highest in the MLB today. J-Beck's great fastball, dirty curve, and cocky attitude point all signs of being a great, if not legendary. pitcher. You know what is scary? A.J. is supposed to be BETTER than JBeck. Penny has a great curveball, but sometimes is too consciencous of himself and his velocity, and tends to overthrow. Willis, has all signs of being a great pitcher, putting himself with the likes of Vida Blue and Fernando Valenzuela, except all signs point toward it not being a fluke. Pavano is the best 5th starter in the league hands down.

 

Lieber, Kim, Harden...all better 5 starters than Pavano. Beckett is yet to pitch a full season. Burnett's lowest adjusted era after a full season is 121 and the lowest of his career is 123. Who is better in the Yankee rotation? Jose Contreras (133), Mike Mussina (129), Kevin Brown (163), and Javy Vazquez (153). Beckett's 132 adjusted era is worse than 3 yankee starters. Dontrelle Willis (I love the guy) has a 122, and that's worse than 4 yankee starters. So certainly, to say that the Marlins rotation overall (though not postseason, I would say that they were certainly clutch, but I am speaking of the totality of a pitcher's skill) is not better than the Yankees, so to put them ahead is dishonest.

Pavano is no Suppan. He was consistent against both leagues. Kim is a horrible fifth starter in the AL so he isn't better. Harden isn't a fifth starter. Lieber still hasn't proven he is back from his surgery so he is an if.

 

 

The Marlins starters were there when it counted, which was every game for them considering they don't buy the players like the Yanks do. Go ahead, talk about adjusted ERA's but the real stuff is the actual ERA's.

 

 

Sure Contreras has a lot of skill but he is only good when he was a setup man to Rivera. Mussina, is preatty consistent as well as Vasquez. Brown has had a number of injuries the past few years, so you aren't guarenteed their.

 

 

The Marlins have more skill and talent hands down. Rant all you want about proven pitchers in the Yanks, but hey, if there was a salry cap, you wouldn' be half as good.

The Marlins will quickly drop off these lists if we start having injury problems again. Last year, all of our starters missed time, in some cases months. If this didn't happen, we would have won almost 100 games. The Marlins can do almost the same if we can manage to keep our pitchers off the DL, and hope that Willis doesn't pitch like he did after the All-Star break last season.

Nor the Phillies. Look at Milton's numbers! Even when injury-free!

Yeah even when injury free he was an all star...

 

I know his ERA his high, but The Phils have enough offense where his win total should not drop off and I don't care what anyone says when you have Milton and Myers as your 4 and 5 guys you have a great rotation 1 - 5.

 

I think they deserve an honorable mention along with The Fish, the only thing keeping them off I guess is the question at #5.

The Marlins starters were there when it counted, which was every game for them considering they don't buy the players like the Yanks do. Go ahead, talk about adjusted ERA's but the real stuff is the actual ERA's.

Real Eras Marlins:

Pavano 4.30

Beckett 3.04

Penny 4.03

Burnett 4.70

Willis 3.30

 

Real Eras Yankees:

Javy Vazquez 3.24

Kevin Brown 2.39

Mike Mussina 3.40

Jose Contreras 3.30

Jon Lieber (last recorded era) 3.70

 

That's the real stuff. Either way, you are wrong, not a single yankee starter is over 4! What counts is a combination of things, which includes league and ballpark!

 

 

Pavano is no Suppan. He was consistent against both leagues. Kim is a horrible fifth starter in the AL so he isn't better. Harden isn't a fifth starter. Lieber still hasn't proven he is back from his surgery so he is an if.

Man, let me educate you.

 

Pavano played exclusively in the national league throughout his career, so how can you say he is consistant against both leagues? That's ridiculous. Only one league counts anyway, the league you pitch in. Suppan had a 3.57 era in the national league and pavano had a 4.30!

 

I don't have Kim's AL starting statistics (though I don't remember them being great because he was moved to the pen to close), but in the national league he had a 3.56 era as a starter...better than Pavano. Harden is a fifth starter for oakland unless you say Redman is the fifth stater, and redman is definitely better than pavano. Lieber is 100% recovered and he has increased velocity. There really is no IFs involved. He might of forgotten how to throw a change up or slider, but I find that very unlikely, because his surgery did not remove a part of his brain.

 

 

1. Sure Contreras has a lot of skill but he is only good when he was a setup man to Rivera. 2. Mussina, is preatty consistent as well as Vasquez. 3. Brown has had a number of injuries the past few years, so you aren't guarenteed their.

1. Um, what the heck are you talking about? How does rivera have anything to do with Contreras ability as a starter? Absolutely nothing! So your point is absolutely nothing. If you are insinuating there's no bridge to Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon, Heredia, Karsay, White might be the best bullpen in the major leagues.

 

2. Yeah...

 

3. And AJ Burnett is a guarenteed thing? Right...the difference is that brown is a full season removed from surgery.

 

Is he really as injury prone as he seems? Well here's some infro from an article:

Brown often sped through his rehabilitation, creating the belief that he bullied club officials into letting him pitch. His surly disposition didn't endear him to the public and he distanced himself from the media and teammates.

 

But his stubbornness also fueled his comeback from a pair of surgeries, and he re-established himself as one of the game's top pitchers this past season. Brown was 14-9 and his 2.39 ERA ranked second among National League starters.

 

"I'm definitely a lot closer but I think there's room for improvement," Brown said in September. "At least to be on the field and be competitive again is a step in the right direction."

Brown was initially injured because he hit a bump in the road, like Burnett. However, he was stupid and rushed back from surgery reinjuring himself. Now that the preceding injury is gone and dealt with, brown is going to be 100% (as 100% as a very good 39 year old pitcher could be), and the shoulder in no long a concern. Last year, is should was no problem, he sprained his groin. Rivera did too, am I questioning Mariano Rivera now? No. Kevin Brown's ability to avoid injury at this point is not that much worse than Curt Schillings, and neither should be injured next season, but of course, who knows.

 

The Marlins have more skill and talent hands down. Rant all you want about proven pitchers...

Look who's ranting. You told me "the real stuff is the actual ERA's", and now you say you have more talent? Based on what.

 

Contreras has some of the nastiest stuff in the bigs, same with vazquez. They're more talented than your whole team.

 

Kevin brown might be the third most talented pitcher in the big leagues.

 

Mike Mussina might be one of the all time most talented pitchers...

 

These aren't empirical arguments, I am presenting you with no evidence, so why should you take them seriously?

 

if there was a salry cap, you wouldn' be half as good

 

Man, please don't write like an unintelligent person. This argument has nothing to do with salary. NOTHING. When people feel beaten in an argument, they start mouthing off irrelevant stupid crap, so please, don't.

 

The Yankees could of been under the salary cap, or at least cut a lot of payroll of they did the things I wanted them to do. But they didn't, but that does not subtract from the skill of our starting rotation.

i dont think the stros staff is overated, especially when u have a guy like Roy Oswalt as your 3rd pick ... and Wade Miller your 4th ... that was their 1-2 punch last year so go figure. Either way i dont think they are best in the league and i think that Pettite's ERA will be higher at Minute Maid

 

1 - A's / Red Sox

2 - Marlins / Cubs

3 - Yanks

4 - Astros

5 - Phills

6 - Twins

Is it just me, or people like making decisions not based on evidence, reason, or logic? I have no problem with people disagreeing with me (like alkazoid's stance on kevin brown), but I really can't see how one can almost arbitrarily decide who they think is best without considering statistics.

Is it just me, or people like making decisions not based on evidence, reason, or logic? I have no problem with people disagreeing with me (like alkazoid's stance on kevin brown), but I really can't see how one can almost arbitrarily decide who they think is best without considering statistics.

Considering statistics is saying that there is a hell of a good chance Lieber won't be able to do well again as a starter.

1. Um, what the heck are you talking about? How does rivera have anything to do with Contreras ability as a starter? Absolutely nothing! So your point is absolutely nothing. If you are insinuating there's no bridge to Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon, Heredia, Karsay, White might be the best bullpen in the major leagues.

The best BOUGHT BULLPEN.

Considering statistics is saying that there is a hell of a good chance Lieber won't be able to do well again as a starter.

He did have a 3.70 era in 2002. Pavano had a 4.30 era in 2003. Lieber is throwing harder than he ever did and is fully recovered for 5 months now. So what hell are you basing what you just said on? So I reiterate my point, don't base one's opinions on nothing, have some evidence if you plan on disagreeing with someone that has some.

1. Um, what the heck are you talking about? How does rivera have anything to do with Contreras ability as a starter? Absolutely nothing! So your point is absolutely nothing. If you are insinuating there's no bridge to Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon, Heredia, Karsay, White might be the best bullpen in the major leagues.

The best BOUGHT BULLPEN. Coming from a man in his signiture that say "maddux???kendall???" what other all star do you want the marlins to buy?

 

Is it bought? Yes, how am I denying this? It it the best? You seem to agree it is.

 

WOW, I AM USING BIG LETTERS, MY GOD AM I GOOD AT SNAPPY COMEBACKS, WOO!

Yankess of 04 ... OVERATED

Maybe your spelling is (just kidding), but put up or shut up. I have the stats, prove me wrong.

 

I won't go into my list of overrated teams so I don't offend people. Possibly it would be kind of you to do the same in return for me, especially when your argument is baseless.

Maybe your spelling is (just kidding), but put up or shut up. I have the stats, prove me wrong.

 

I won't go into my list of overrated teams so I don't offend people. Possibly it would be kind of you to do the same in return for me, especially when your argument is baseless.

They certainly aren't overrated, but they aren't that great anymore.

1.? Um, what the heck are you talking about?? How does rivera have anything to do with Contreras ability as a starter?? Absolutely nothing!? So your point is absolutely nothing.? If you are insinuating there's no bridge to Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon, Heredia, Karsay, White might be the best bullpen in the major leagues.

The best BOUGHT BULLPEN. Coming from a man in his signiture that say "maddux???kendall???" what other all star do you want the marlins to buy?

 

Is it bought? Yes, how am I denying this? It it the best? You seem to agree it is.

 

WOW, I AM USING BIG LETTERS, MY GOD AM I GOOD AT SNAPPY COMEBACKS, WOO! When was the last all star the Marlins bought other than Huizenga in 97. Tell me.

 

 

 

Of course I agree it is. Any bullpen with Mariano Rivera, Tom Gordon, and Paul Quantrill is going to do one hell of a job. Of course if every other team had the Yankees money there wouldn't be any problem with this other than monster contracts...

They certainly aren't overrated, but they aren't that great anymore.

Not good anymore? We were the 2003 AL champions! We UPGRADED MAJORLY this offseason. We're good. On paper, better than the 98 team though I doubt it.

 

Last year Runs scored/runs given up

 

Yanks=1.22

Braves=1.23

Red Sox=1.19

Marlins=1.08

 

The MArlins certainly were a new team since mid may (and that's all that matters), but the Yanks and Red Sox were the only two teams that upgraded out of this bunch, and the yankees not only did better than the Sox, they upgraded more so. So "not good anymore" would not be a true statement.

When was the last all star the Marlins bought other than Huizenga in 97. Tell me.

 

 

 

Of course I agree it is. Any bullpen with Mariano Rivera, Tom Gordon, and Paul Quantrill is going to do one hell of a job. Of course if every other team had the Yankees money there wouldn't be any problem with this other than monster contracts...

Alex Fernandez? Moises Alou? I'm not making fun of the marlins, I have ntohign against the acquisition of all-stars, just the absurd acquisition (yankees) of too many all stars.

 

Dude, I'm against big acquistions on the yankees too. Our payroll is absurd. I was hoping we would sign kelvim escobar (better against lefties) and pat hentgen to replace lost starters and keep chris hammond and resign heredia for the bullpen. Getting rid of weaver though was a good move (because brown is worth about 8 million a year in today's market.) Otherwise, I was against sheffield and all other inefficient signings.

They certainly aren't overrated, but they aren't that great anymore.

Not good anymore? We were the 2003 AL champions! We UPGRADED MAJORLY this offseason. We're good. On paper, better than the 98 team though I doubt it.

 

Last year Runs scored/runs given up

 

Yanks=1.22

Braves=1.23

Red Sox=1.19

Marlins=1.08

 

The MArlins certainly were a new team since mid may (and that's all that matters), but the Yanks and Red Sox were the only two teams that upgraded out of this bunch, and the yankees not only did better than the Sox, they upgraded more so. So "not good anymore" would not be a true statement. And that is because of your hitting and clutch performances by Peattite. Otherwise, the pitching staff was ordinary.

 

 

The Marlins didn't upgrade? I mean Benitez is better than Urbina except for last year, and he is certainly better than Looper, though Looper could become just as good. Mike Neu isn't an upgrade either? He pitches very well against lefties and could become the Marlins closer of the future when Benitez leaves.