i did not change my mind at one second throughout this ordeal. i dont listen to what the jerkoffs on espn say. and if you dont believe me you could go back and check my first post on this trade way before espn dispensed their opinions on it.

and you think marlin fans are pissed?! go check up on dodger fans, they feel like they were raped. calling penny a "fatass" and saying they traded their team leader in loduca and their main set up man. so please stop letting your emotional attachments talk for you.

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i looked at dodger boards, and it appeared to me that most mature posters there liked the trade except for the emotional loss of lo duca. you could liken it to us losing something of a jeff conine...it means nothing to the team that would get him, but it would make a lot of marlin fans disappointed.

 

here's a link to an intelligent dodgers board if you'd like to read their comments:

http://mb3.theinsiders.com/flosangelesdodgersfrm1

 

i can assure you my dislike for this trade transcends any emotional attachment i might have for choi. on paper, and by the numbers, it's a terrible deal....that's why i don't like it.

Shaq-man,

 

You are right on with your arguments and logic. The marlins front office and anyone who thinks this is a good deal is foolish. Rotonews explained it perfectly. This whole ordeal just shows that the Heat are the best franchise is so. fla. I question why I am a Marlins fan after a deal like this; such ineptitude in the front office is very discouraging. I can accept trading Penny or another high-priced player for prospects - because that's the reality of the business - but I cannot accept stupidity from a GM.

I disagree and here is why:

 

Did we give up a lot of future talent? Yes. Did we help our chances of winning right now? Yes.

 

If you know anything about baseball and its history, teams normally have to give up something to win. Last year, some were crying about the Conine and Urbina deals. We gave up too much in prospects. But you know what? It paid off. Did we give up a lot? Sure - if all those players pan out.

 

Look at what we gave up here. We gave up 2 MLB players for 3 PROVEN MLB'ers. One is an all-star the other is arguably one of the better relief arms IN THE GAME. Choi for Mota? Penny for Lo Duca? You could argue for or against either one of those deals - but you have to take into consideration the context with which those deals are made. We have Conine who can play 1B. We just acquired Valdez to pitch for Penny while also getting the upgrade at catcher that this team does need.

 

Now, I said all along that the bullpen wasnt as bad as some made it out to be. But Benitez was not going to hold up for the rest of the season and possibly the playoffs at that rate. Mota can spell him from time to time and his presence also increases the effectiveness of guys like Koch, Howard, Bump, Manzanillo who all dont have to pressure themselves to hold on to shutouts to do their jobs. Not to mention, the offense gets better.

 

Yes, it does. The offense gets better because Lo Duca helps spread the wealth and the repsonsibility on offense. If you wedge him between Lowell and Castillo at 3, you now have 1-5 hitting around or above .300. The OBP also looks good. Factor in a healthy and hot hitting Conine at the 6, a wildcard Enc at 7 and a streaky AGon at 8 and this offense is much improved.

 

So lets see: we needed a stronger bullpen, a more potent offense and better defense. We got all that in this deal while also increasing our team speed and baserunning, as well as acquired a solid starter to plug the hole left by Penny in the rotation. I fail to see how this is a bad deal.

 

Plus, if you think about the finances, we were NOT going to keep Penny and Pavano after this season. Penny we would have more control over, in that we would have his rights, but he was going to get an increase in pay anyway. We would have been forced to pay him whatever arbitration said. With Pavano, we risk losing him but getting a draft pick as compensation. I like our chances of re-signing him if we win though.

 

Lo Duca and Mota are cheap ($4M and $1.5M, respectively). Both are arby eligible and with Benitez on his way out, more than likely, we have insureance with Mota as our closer. Enc has a contract through next year but could always be dealt again to free up money.

 

So, we were not going to keep Penny, most likely, and eventhough Choi is young and very talented, he is apparently not irreplaceable (Conine, Cabrera, Stokes, Willingham all options to play 1B at this point). I dont see how this is damaging for this franchise.

One more thing:

 

We won it all last year without AJ Burnett. And he is WAY more talented than Penny is.

Jonny, we usually agree but not here.

 

Last year we gave up prospects for Urbina and Conine. That's what we did with the Valdez and Seanez trades, I have nothing against those two trades. Prospects for immediate help in a pennant race is the right idea.

 

This year we gave up our third best hitter and second best starter for 30 innings of good relief, a rental catcher heading into his worst two months and a guy who produces an out 71% of the time. It does not help the club now, and hurts us in the future when next year we have Redmond/Castro back at catcher and Willingham at first.

You're right, we do disagree here. This team gets a lot better NOW, no doubt about it. Because what you failed to address is the moves you dont have a problem with. If you dont have a problem trading for a starter and a reliever, then you understand that one of those moves was made to address a hole made by the very deal you DONT like.

 

Let's face it, Penny has been inconsistent for his career. He has the tools, but I dont know if he has the heart or the mentality to ever put those things together. That said, he has 3.15 ERA and is 8-8. With an ERA like that, you would think he would have gotten better results. So, how much of a hole is really left?

 

We dealt:

 

Travis Chick

Abraham Nunez

Hee Seop Choi

Brad Penny

Bill Murphy

 

for:

 

Paul Lo Duca

Guillermo Mota

Juan Encarnacion

Ismael Valdez

Seanez

 

We gave up 2 prospects, a lame-duck OFer, a young talented 1B and starter to get an Allstar catcher, a top notch reliever, a gold-glove caliber OF, a solid starter and a righty specialist. No contracts are killing us. Sometimes to win, you have to give up something.

One more thing:

 

We won it all last year without AJ Burnett. And he is WAY more talented than Penny is.

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We also won it last year with Encarnacion starting in right during the season, something some people here seemed to have forgotten.

We dealt:

 

Travis Chick

Abraham Nunez

Hee Seop Choi

Brad Penny

Bill Murphy

 

for:

 

Paul Lo Duca

Guillermo Mota

Juan Encarnacion

Ismael Valdez

Seanez

 

We gave up 2 prospects, a lame-duck OFer, a young talented 1B and starter to get an Allstar catcher, a top notch reliever, a gold-glove caliber OF, a solid starter and a righty specialist. No contracts are killing us. Sometimes to win, you have to give up something.

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I think you could also call Encarnacion a lame-duck outfielder with the year he's having, I wouldn't call Valdez a solid starter, he's an acceptable 5th starter and that's it. (I liked that deal btw.) No contracts are killing us now, but we have to be realistic. Lo Duca will not be with this team next year, I hope to God Encarnacion won't be with the team next year. Mota's a solid pickup, I've never disputed that, but why deal a guy who has a world of potential, is a solid player right now, and that we could've held onto for at least 3 or 4 more years? While not getting a significant upgrade to that player in the proces

The bottom line is that LoDuca (2nd half) and Encarnacion are not an upgrade from Choi and Redmond. LoDuca is better (even in the 2nd half) than Redmond...but the drop-off from Choi to Encarnacion is large.

 

Then count that we gave up a good pitching prospect, and a very good starter for a reliever who is only valuable in situations where we are up after 7 innings (which, as rferry pointed out we are 40-4 anyway)...and this deal sucks.

 

The only way this trade can be salvaged is if:

1) Encarnacion can change his horrendous batting ways (not counting on it)

2) Valdez turns out to be a quality 5th starter...essentially Valdez will have to = Penny for our pitching staff to not get worse

3) Mota will have to live up to the hype

4) Lo Duca will have to break his 2nd half trend