Just to clear something up, Thomas Jefferson did not found the Democratic party nor was he ever in it. His party was commonly known as the Jeffersonians, and they have no connection with the party that Andrew Jackson started (Democrats) except having some members transfer over when the Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians faded away and the Democrats and Whigs stood in their place. Democratic-Republican and Federalist are party titles attached by historians.

 

Besides, Thomas Jefferson was a very conservative man.

Just to clear something up, Thomas Jefferson did not found the Democratic party nor was he ever in it. His party was commonly known as the Jeffersonians, and they have no connection with the party that Andrew Jackson started (Democrats) except having some members transfer over when the Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians faded away and the Democrats and Whigs stood in their place. Democratic-Republican and Federalist are party titles attached by historians.

 

Besides, Thomas Jefferson was a very conservative man.

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A lot of Jeffersons egalitarian principles carried over enough to make him contructivley the father of the party. You could say the same about Lincoln and the Republican party today not being what he envisioned even though technically he started it.

whoa...whoa...whoa...

 

 

i read not even one page and i have these major two points:

 

 

 

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

-saying the Republican party is diverse is a joke.

The Republican party has already reached the point of no return on the right if they don't lose the election.

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The Republican party is not far right, sorry.

 

Excuse me... Any comments on the brilliant piece by Garrison? Or are we going to keep on beating the dead horse here. We already know we are divided in this country as we are on this board... Now let's please discuss the issue here. Do you think that the Neocons stand for the original Republican principles? Or do you agree with Garrison that they have bastardized their party???

 

Unless you have been living under a rock there is clearly a rift in the Republican party (the Democratic party is also divided but that is subject of another thread). Let's please drop the infantile attacks and talk once and for all, let's DISCUSS, DISCERN AND HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION HERE... Can we?

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Back to the article, yes the Republican party started as a radically left party. The Democratic party started as a rather conservative organization. What's your point? People change over time. Abraham Lincoln wouldn't be a Republican now, neither would Theodore Roosevelt. The parties have adjusted themselves into new phases of American Politics twice since the Republicans kicked the Whigs out of the picture, the Democrats have also twisted their views and updated with time. Alot of the Dems from the pre-Civil War time (because I believe all of two Dems were elected president between from the Civil War up to the Market Crash) would most likely be Republicans today.

Just to clear something up, Thomas Jefferson did not found the Democratic party nor was he ever in it. His party was commonly known as the Jeffersonians, and they have no connection with the party that Andrew Jackson started (Democrats) except having some members transfer over when the Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians faded away and the Democrats and Whigs stood in their place. Democratic-Republican and Federalist are party titles attached by historians.

 

Besides, Thomas Jefferson was a very conservative man.

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that is true.

 

 

 

besdies I for the most part disslike Jefferson and all he did while in the office. Talk about someone who changed his views like the way someone changes their underwear.

 

 

Monticello itself is a prime example of Jefferson's constant wavering in thoughts.

 

 

Not to mention he plagerised much of the Declaration.

Just to clear something up, Thomas Jefferson did not found the Democratic party nor was he ever in it. His party was commonly known as the Jeffersonians, and they have no connection with the party that Andrew Jackson started (Democrats) except having some members transfer over when the Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians faded away and the Democrats and Whigs stood in their place. Democratic-Republican and Federalist are party titles attached by historians.

 

Besides, Thomas Jefferson was a very conservative man.

600222[/snapback]

 

A lot of Jeffersons egalitarian principles carried over enough to make him contructivley the father of the party. You could say the same about Lincoln and the Republican party today not being what he envisioned even though technically he started it.

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Alot carried over but for the most part they associate better with conservative thought. The reason they carried over is that the poles were opposite the way they are now.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

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He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

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He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

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what?! This is welfare reforming pro law and order Clinton? What actions of liberalism did he engage in? I think this proves that for you, anyone not right wing is a far left liberal.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

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He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

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what?! This is welfare reforming pro law and order Clinton? What actions of liberalism did he engage in?

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The Clintons ruined my healthcare when they attempted to move us to socialized healthcare and instead ended up going halfway and sticking everyone in useless HMOs. It took us almost 5 years and my mother part of her lung before we could get into a PPO so she could get better healthcare. We were the guineau pigs because we were County (aka Gov't) Employed and our healthcare was whatever the county and Washington put out. The HMO took away all of our doctors, made us switch to other doctors and the dentist caused major damage to my mother's health because the system didn't work to protect patients and allow them to get emergency examinations and second or third opinions.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

600229[/snapback]

 

He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

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that is silly.

 

 

 

clinton has been recognized as one of the most moderate democrats in recent history in terms of policy in any major position of political power.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

600229[/snapback]

 

He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

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that is silly.

 

 

 

clinton has been recognized as one of the most moderate democrats in recent history in terms of policy in any major position of political power.

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he was considered moderate because the democrats have taken such a sharp turn left.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

600229[/snapback]

 

He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

600234[/snapback]

 

what?! This is welfare reforming pro law and order Clinton? What actions of liberalism did he engage in?

600236[/snapback]

The Clintons ruined my healthcare when they attempted to move us to socialized healthcare and instead ended up going halfway and sticking everyone in useless HMOs. It took us almost 5 years and my mother part of her lung before we could get into a PPO so she could get better healthcare. We were the guineau pigs because we were County (aka Gov't) Employed and our healthcare was whatever the county and Washington put out. The HMO took away all of our doctors, made us switch to other doctors and the dentist caused major damage to my mother's health because the system didn't work to protect patients and allow them to get emergency examinations and second or third opinions.

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even in HMO's you have choice.

 

 

just not as much as PPO plans. and you sound extremely bitter...doesnt mean Clinton was a far extreme liberal as you make him out to be.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

600229[/snapback]

 

He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

600234[/snapback]

 

 

 

that is silly.

 

 

 

clinton has been recognized as one of the most moderate democrats in recent history in terms of policy in any major position of political power.

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he was considered moderate because the democrats have taken such a sharp turn left.

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clinton has not been labeled a moderate in the last couple years.

-when did clinton magically move from being a moderate democrat to a far left liberal demorcrat.

 

600229[/snapback]

 

He was a far-left liberal, but the polls in '94 showed people wanted the Contract with America Republicans better than the Democrats and he came a bit more to the center. Then once the Democrats regained some more power, he went farther left.

600234[/snapback]

 

what?! This is welfare reforming pro law and order Clinton? What actions of liberalism did he engage in?

600236[/snapback]

The Clintons ruined my healthcare when they attempted to move us to socialized healthcare and instead ended up going halfway and sticking everyone in useless HMOs. It took us almost 5 years and my mother part of her lung before we could get into a PPO so she could get better healthcare. We were the guineau pigs because we were County (aka Gov't) Employed and our healthcare was whatever the county and Washington put out. The HMO took away all of our doctors, made us switch to other doctors and the dentist caused major damage to my mother's health because the system didn't work to protect patients and allow them to get emergency examinations and second or third opinions.

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Ok, that says nothing about Clinton being a far left liberal. How, may I ask, did he force you into the HMOs?

This thread disgusts me and shows the problems with American politics today.

 

B4P- Please, stop now. There is no imminent Civil War. We all know you have your problems with Bush, that's fine. This is a thread about history not about spitting venom in the face of everyone that thinks differently.

 

About your signature, I am conservative because I am idealistic. I am conservative because I am a dreamer, and I'd like to think I'm not a stupid person. I guess that's up to people here and elsewhere to determine though. Descartes has nothing to do with liberalism, and I'd fight for my ideals too, btw. The world doesn't completely share your ideals, even though it's easy to think you're alone here but have friends elsewhere. I guess it's an era of fear, even though I just checked and I'm not too scared. I dream, I think, I don't agree with some wars or the way they are fought, I have my own thoughts, btw. But in spewing things like you are you continue to do what you accuse the other side of doing. This goes for all of you no matter what side you are on.

 

Chewie: Calm down, please. We know you hate Kerry. We don't need to be reminded of this every second of every minute. This goes for every Republican here.

 

Hey, btw. To everyone. Stop spewing just venom you hear on the major sources of news, or the opinions of other people. It gets tired and boring. Are you sure you have an opinion, or are you reciting someone else's thoughts constantly? Those who do this know who I am talking to, it does not apply to all.

 

Now, back to history, because history rules.

We didn't get as much choice in the HMO back in 1995. You know why? Because back them managed care plans were new and no one wanted to work with them. That was why we had to get new doctors. We finally became eligible for a PPO and thank god we were. I may sound bitter because as a third grader I lost my mother for 17 days, she was in the Hospital, they didn't knwo if she would live or what was wrong with her. I couldn't visit her, most days I couldn't even call her. I had to stay home, clean the house, cook, and take care of my younger brother as my mother, my father and the doctors did everything to try and figure out what was wrong. She ended up having part of her lung removed because a cist had gone from her jaw to her lung and if it had not been caught, could have killed her. Sorry if I sound bitter, but after that we swore off the Democrats for good. We had to wait 5 years until the PPO would take her because of the preexisting condition not making it affordable. It was a very scary 17 days, I am very close with her and had never been seperated ever.

 

The Clintons made us give up our traditional insurance for the HMO crap. Hillary Clinton cost my mother part of her lung. now you know why is detest the Clintons. That is the truth.

and still that fails to show why Clinton is a far left liberal.

 

 

 

and HMOs have actually been around since before 95.

How, may I ask, did he force you into the HMOs?

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Back in the early 90's, almost all government employees...heck everyone moved into these things called HMOs. The Clintons had pushed to try and get a national socialized healthcare system like Canada and thank god it was not passed. They failed, so the HMOs filled the gap because all the traditional insurance companies went to managed care. Before all you needed was to fill out the claim and the insurance would pay the doctor, now the plan needs to approve it. PPO gives a bit more freedom as to which doctors take it, but it is nowhere near in quality to the traditional insurance before Clinton's attempt to socialize medicine.

and still that fails to show why Clinton is a far left liberal.

 

 

 

and HMOs have actually been around since before 95.

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but they were a minority of insurance plans, now they are the majority. Socialized medicine is a liberal idea. Communists, Socialists, and Liberals pushed for it. Just look at Canada.

you also do realize the skyrocketing costs of healthcare also right?

and still that fails to show why Clinton is a far left liberal.

 

 

 

and HMOs have actually been around since before 95.

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but they were a minority of insurance plans, now they are the majority. Socialized medicine is a liberal idea. Communists, Socialists, and Liberals pushed for it. Just look at Canada.

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so lets go back to the old system where only a few can actually afford any real health care.

you also do realize the skyrocketing costs of healthcare also right?

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Thank Hillary and Bill Clinton who messed with the structure of insurance in this country.

and still that fails to show why Clinton is a far left liberal.

 

 

 

and HMOs have actually been around since before 95.

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but they were a minority of insurance plans, now they are the majority. Socialized medicine is a liberal idea. Communists, Socialists, and Liberals pushed for it. Just look at Canada.

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so lets go back to the old system where only a few can actually afford any real health care.

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a few? i thought we had an all time high according to the Democrats now? oh wait, that's right...the problem we have right now is the Democrats fault because they totally messed up the American healthcare system socializing most of how it works. It may be a private company running it, but the manager treats everyone just like a social healthcare manager in Canada does. The only difference is Doctors in Canada are gov't employees in gov't hospitals that cannot be sued while here they are private doctors in private hospitals that can be sued.

and still that fails to show why Clinton is a far left liberal.

 

 

 

and HMOs have actually been around since before 95.

600256[/snapback]

but they were a minority of insurance plans, now they are the majority. Socialized medicine is a liberal idea. Communists, Socialists, and Liberals pushed for it. Just look at Canada.

600258[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

 

so lets go back to the old system where only a few can actually afford any real health care.

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a few? i thought we had an all time high according to the Democrats now? oh wait, that's right...the problem we have right now is the Democrats fault because they totally messed up the American healthcare system socializing most of how it works. It may be a private company running it, but the manager treats everyone just like a social healthcare manager in Canada does. The only difference is Doctors in Canada are gov't employees in gov't hospitals that cannot be sued while here they are private doctors in private hospitals that can be sued.

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ok you have successfully confused me.

 

 

are you talking about an all time high now...

 

 

or in 1995.

 

 

 

cause if its now...i fail to see what the hell your real arguement is.

my argument is that Democrats made all that noise about how terrible the traditional insurance was in the early 90's in an attempt to convince the American public to form a socialized medical system ala Canada but instead could not get thier way but were able to change the insurance industry into managed care. so when was insurance worse...early 90's or now? Either way, the Liberal democrats and the Clintons are to blame for messing up the American health system...Bush certainly didn't do it and neither did Reagan.