see Sham, i have come over to the dark side.....

see Sham, i have come over to the dark side.....

No you enter the Dark side now .... :thumbdown

i dont like him, but is more productive than i thought.... the stats back me up....

i dont like him, but is more productive than i thought.... the stats back me up....

Those stats are missleading like crazy.You tell me how many times you see him to something meaningful in a game this year.

im not gonna look it up.... maybe we should have a thread from now on how many runs he saves(game by game) and how many times he des something productive

im not gonna look it up.... maybe we should have a thread from now on how many runs he saves(game by game) and how many times he des something productive

I never said his D isn't great and it might save a run a on occasion but is not like his D is need all 162 games like his bat.

----> Shamrock Evil King

 

-----> Ramp Evil knight

 

 

LOL just having some fun fellas

 

 

CONINE CONINE !!!

 

Ok I'm done soliciting for Conine-Lee trade and some of you won't realize what I mean until the season is over but if Dereck Lee proves me wrong than I'll eat crow(99.9 percent he won't).

CONINE CONINE !!!

 

Ok I'm done soliciting for Conine-Lee trade and some of you won't realize what I mean until the season is over but if Dereck Lee proves me wrong than I'll eat crow(99.9 percent he won't).

Minus I'm on your team on this one. Sham and the rest of the stats obsessed posters probably felt Derrick's performance last night (0-4 with six (6) men left on base) was nothing to worry about because we won the game anyways. It just goes to show you that you can prove anything with stats as long as you start with a false premise or only know a bit about statistical analysis. There's an old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

 

My kid is in baseball camp this summer. The other day we were talking about how he did and as he listed off his accomplishments (homer, triple, four hits) and travails he mentioned coming in fourth in first base sprints. What he initially failed to mention was that there were four kids in the contest. Did he come in fourth or last? You be the judge.

 

We have a guy here who actually believes that theres no such thing as "clutch". It's almost laughable but with his limited knowledge of statistical analysis he has not surprisingly convinced himself that he alone is right and the hundreds of millions baseball fans who have followed the game over the last 100+ years are wrong.

 

Don't worry about it. You can't change a zealot's mind.

 

As for Lee and Conine, man I am in your camp. Lee's performance last night was a disgrace. If there was ever a guy who needs a change of scenery its Lee. Two homeruns at PPS since April is almost laughable from a infield corner.

 

Being an ex-Red Sox fan (fifty years of heartbreak) I've seen my share of first baseman from Mickey Vernon to Dick Stuart. If there is one thing I'm sure of its that Jeff Conine will not be an embarassment at first. The other thing I'm sure of is Conine wouldn't have left six men in scoring position last night.

 

I believe we need more than one bat, personally I'd like to see some wholesale changes in this team, at first, in right and left fields, and on the bench. Right now I'd gladly trade a few points of fielding percentage for points in ave/obp/slg. But trading Derrick for Conine would be a good start.

no, last night's performance by Derrek sucked, i cant argue with that, but he is the better option at 1B, and Conine would not put this team over the top

no, last night's performance by Derrek sucked, i cant argue with that, but he is the better option at 1B, and Conine would not put this team over the top

but there more positive out making that trade than keeping Dereck Lee.Like I said you can find someone with his type of D in some team minor league system and cheaper than him.You sound like your ok with just any body at 1b which is not ok.

but there more positive out making that trade than keeping Dereck Lee.Like I said you can find someone with his type of D in some team minor league system and cheaper than him.You sound like your ok with just any body at 1b which is not ok.

 

Minus, it's hopeless. :banghead

I am intrigued by this debate. I feel Lee is above average 1B; and he is fairly consistent (.270+ 23+HR .820+OPS). He has only grounded into 8 DPs this year, and is on pace for his usual 14. Hardly a reason to trade the guy away, and his D is among the best.

 

Now Conine is not going to hurt you with his D at 1B, but he isnt going to make spectacular plays there either. His OPS is lower than Lee's right now (.813) and has been consistently lower over the course of his career (usually high .700's whereas Lee has been above .820 the last 3 years). I know Conine will bring a veteran influence, but I dont think it will be as strong as Dutch's was in '97. I also think that if you were going to make a trade in-season, trading Lee for Conine would be very good for PR with the fans. I just dont think it is a wise move for this team unless the O's throw in someone else. If they gave us Lightenberg too, then we'll talk.

 

But those who support this trade would have you believe that Lee is the problem with our offense and that in getting Conine our problems clear up a lot. I disagree, I dont think we will really improve on offense to the point where you trade a guy who has more value than what you are recieving. The other thing to think about, is after this season, we probably wont have Lee again. It is a risk all around, do you break up team chemistry while hoping to win it now? Do you sacrifice now for the future? Either way, I dont see this happening because of the situation we are in. I think those of you who want another LF are in the right.

PS I am intrigued by this debate. I feel Lee is above average 1B; and he is fairly consistent (.270+ 23+HR .820+OPS). He has only grounded into 8 DPs this year, and is on pace for his usual 14. Hardly a reason to trade the guy away, and his D is among the best.

 

Now Conine is not going to hurt you with his D at 1B, but he isnt going to make spectacular plays there either. His OPS is lower than Lee's right now (.813) and has been consistently lower over the course of his career (usually high .700's whereas Lee has been above .820 the last 3 years). I know Conine will bring a veteran influence, but I dont think it will be as strong as Dutch's was in '97. I also think that if you were going to make a trade in-season, trading Lee for Conine would be very good for PR with the fans. I just dont think it is a wise move for this team unless the O's throw in someone else. If they gave us Lightenberg too, then we'll talk.

 

But those who support this trade would have you believe that Lee is the problem with our offense and that in getting Conine our problems clear up a lot. I disagree, I dont think we will really improve on offense to the point where you trade a guy who has more value than what you are recieving. The other thing to think about, is after this season, we probably wont have Lee again. It is a risk all around, do you break up team chemistry while hoping to win it now? Do you sacrifice now for the future? Either way, I dont see this happening because of the situation we are in. I think those of you who want another LF are in the right.

Stop OPS and start looking what really determines if a player is reallly productive offensive player and that is batting average while runners are on scoring position.I'm sorry OPS doesn't mean much if you are terrible are driving runs in and that how you determine how good a player has been offesively.I could point out guys that have good OPS who suck.

 

 

BATTING Average WHILE RUNNERS ARE IN SCORING POSITION determines a good offensive player.

 

 

Another thing Dereck Lee has never been a good hitter period unlike Conine.

I am intrigued by this debate. I feel Lee is above average 1B; and he is fairly consistent (.270+ 23+HR .820+OPS). He has only grounded into 8 DPs this year, and is on pace for his usual 14. Hardly a reason to trade the guy away, and his D is among the best.

 

Now Conine is not going to hurt you with his D at 1B, but he isnt going to make spectacular plays there either. His OPS is lower than Lee's right now (.813) and has been consistently lower over the course of his career (usually high .700's whereas Lee has been above .820 the last 3 years). I know Conine will bring a veteran influence, but I dont think it will be as strong as Dutch's was in '97. I also think that if you were going to make a trade in-season, trading Lee for Conine would be very good for PR with the fans. I just dont think it is a wise move for this team unless the O's throw in someone else. If they gave us Lightenberg too, then we'll talk.

 

But those who support this trade would have you believe that Lee is the problem with our offense and that in getting Conine our problems clear up a lot. I disagree, I dont think we will really improve on offense to the point where you trade a guy who has more value than what you are recieving. The other thing to think about, is after this season, we probably wont have Lee again. It is a risk all around, do you break up team chemistry while hoping to win it now? Do you sacrifice now for the future? Either way, I dont see this happening because of the situation we are in. I think those of you who want another LF are in the right.

even if lightenberg is included, it isnt good. Lightenberg is a free agent and Lee is way beter then conine even though he has no clutch. Lee is young and conine is close to 40!.

 

THere are relievers out there that can be had for nothing that are extreme quality. For example look at what san fran got for Herges and Royals got for Leskanic. We can go to other places like d-rays or mets and get a quality reliever for next to a nothing minor leaguer instead of breaking up one of our most important links in our infield. FORGET IT.

 

besides, we can get conine for prospects if beinfest works hard at it.

I am intrigued by this debate.? I feel Lee is above average 1B; and he is fairly consistent (.270+ 23+HR .820+OPS).? He has only grounded into 8 DPs this year, and is on pace for his usual 14.? Hardly a reason to trade the guy away, and his D is among the best.

 

Now Conine is not going to hurt you with his D at 1B, but he isnt going to make spectacular plays there either.? His OPS is lower than Lee's right now (.813) and has been consistently lower over the course of his career (usually high .700's whereas Lee has been above .820 the last 3 years).? I know Conine will bring a veteran influence, but I dont think it will be as strong as Dutch's was in '97.? I also think that if you were going to make a trade in-season, trading Lee for Conine would be very good for PR with the fans.? I just dont think it is a wise move for this team unless the O's throw in someone else.? If they gave us Lightenberg too, then we'll talk.?

 

But those who support this trade would have you believe that Lee is the problem with our offense and that in getting Conine our problems clear up a lot.? I disagree, I dont think we will really improve on offense to the point where you trade a guy who has more value than what you are recieving.? The other thing to think about, is after this season, we probably wont have Lee again.? It is a risk all around, do you break up team chemistry while hoping to win it now?? Do you sacrifice now for the future?? Either way, I dont see this happening because of the situation we are in.? I think those of you who want another LF are in the right.

even if lightenberg is included, it isnt good. Lightenberg is a free agent and Lee is way beter then conine even though he has no clutch. Lee is young and conine is close to 40!.

 

THere are relievers out there that can be had for nothing that are extreme quality. For example look at what san fran got for Herges and Royals got for Leskanic. We can go to other places like d-rays or mets and get a quality reliever for next to a nothing minor leaguer instead of breaking up one of our most important links in our infield. FORGET IT.

 

besides, we can get conine for prospects if beinfest works hard at it. Earth to Hollandworthless

 

Lee ain't coming back period and his market value isn't exactly high.

 

People the problem is how some of you overate Dereck Lee so much and no he is not that much better than conine if any.

Lee ain't coming back period and his market value isn't exactly high.

earth to your face, Marlins are winning and with the Ballpark talks, Loria might increase the payroll. If he doesnt, then he wont keep up the fan increase and might not get support for the ballpark.

 

Also, Lee is ARBITRATION ELIGIBLE, which means hes going to make about 6.5 mil. we can trade him in the offseason when we have more time to think and get a better deal instead of rushing everything. We probably will even keep him.

 

WOooo WOoooo, clue train, All aboard, next stop: you

Lee ain't coming back period and his market value isn't exactly high.

earth to your face, Marlins are winning and with the Ballpark talks, Loria might increase the payroll. If he doesnt, then he wont keep up the fan increase and might not get support for the ballpark.

 

Also, Lee is ARBITRATION ELIGIBLE, which means hes going to make about 6.5 mil. we can trade him in the offseason when we have more time to think and get a better deal instead of rushing everything. We probably will even keep him.

 

WOooo WOoooo, clue train, All aboard, next stop: you LOL

 

Yes Loria and Beinfest would consider rasing payroll to pay for a over price and overated 1b basement.You must be dreaming if you think Dereck Lee will be back in a Marlins uniform and ask Shamrock himself on what are the chances of Lee coming back.

 

Of course they can keep him and trade in offseason but the Marlins need production now out first base not someone who occasionally produces and more than half the time in meaningless games.His trade value won't increase any higher than it is unless he start hitting.

first of all please give me some names of players who have good OPS that suck....

 

you think some overrate Derrek Lee, but you underrate him.... Conine will NOT put us over the top..... that is just being foolish

Lee ain't coming back period and his market value isn't exactly high.

earth to your face, Marlins are winning and with the Ballpark talks, Loria might increase the payroll. If he doesnt, then he wont keep up the fan increase and might not get support for the ballpark.

 

Also, Lee is ARBITRATION ELIGIBLE, which means hes going to make about 6.5 mil. we can trade him in the offseason when we have more time to think and get a better deal instead of rushing everything. We probably will even keep him.

 

WOooo WOoooo, clue train, All aboard, next stop: you LOL

 

Yes Loria and Beinfest would consider rasing payroll to pay for a over price and overated 1b basement.You must be dreaming if you think Dereck Lee will be back in a Marlins uniform and ask Shamrock himself on what are the chances of Lee coming back.

 

Of course they can keep him and trade in offseason but the Marlins need production now out first base not someone who occasionally produces and more than half the time in meaningless games.His trade value won't increase any higher than it is unless he start hitting. you cant get what he does for 6.5 million. NO way. His defense is the best in the majors and saves 1-2 runs a game. Thats like hitting a HR a game. His offense is very nice despite he has no clutch. Hes among the top 5 1b in the NL and probably the AL as well. Unless you want to see some sorry 1b signed like the Redsox did when they stacked up in 1b for 1 mill each then I would be ok, but i dont see there being david ortiz's, kevin millar's in next year free agency that will go for 1-2 mill. NO way. MIght as well stick with LEE.

shamrock? who cares about shamrock? i thought that was a wrestler?

 

unless beinfest is registered under shamrocks name i dont care about a shamrock.

 

The hollandworthless will lay the rock bottom on shamrocks candy as$

first of all please give me some names of players who have good OPS that suck....

 

you think some overrate Derrek Lee, but you underrate him.... Conine will NOT put us over the top..... that is just being foolish

youre avatar thing makes me sick. i loathe darren and his family

first of all please give me some names of players who have good OPS that suck....

 

you think some overrate Derrek Lee, but you underrate him.... Conine will NOT put us over the top..... that is just being foolish

How am I underating him?

 

Awsome Defense

 

Best defensive 1b right now with out a doubt

 

Mediocre offensively

 

He can't drive runs in when runners are on and he non existance when the Fish need to make a comeback and only reason he is mediocre and not below average is because of his power.

 

 

AS fas as OPS

 

I might have exaggerated a little bit but you can find player who aren't very good hitters and don't excel at driving runner while scoring position.

possible 1B free agents:

Frank Thomas

Scott Hatteberg-thats who i want

Brad Fullmer

Scott Spezio-arn eligible but may nto be resigned

Rafael Palmeiro

Mark Grace

Julio Franco

Eric Karros

Fred McGriff

Tony Clark

JT Snow

 

this doesnt include any arb eligible players(besides Spezio)

first of all please give me some names of players who have good OPS that suck....

 

you think some overrate Derrek Lee, but you underrate him.... Conine will NOT put us over the top..... that is just being foolish

youre avatar thing makes me sick. i loathe darren and his family i just think its a funny picture... im not a fan either