June 10, 200521 yr Here's a lesson for you Marlins. W/L is the worst way to gauge how good a pitcher is. Josh Beckett Career: ERA: 3.36 WHIP: 1.24 BAA: .228 K/9: 9.11 Dontrelle Willis ERA: 3.40 WHIP: 1.29 BAA: .257 K/9: 7.06 Advantage Beckett. Your numbers are a little off ESPN has not added tonights game yet. MLB.com says for Beckett: ERA: 3.43 WHIP: 1.25 AVG: .233 k/9: 9.09 I would expect someone who seems obsessed about runs and offense that you would like the guy who allows less runs on average.I guess we just ignored Beckett's edge in the other three categories then. How many shutouts has Willis thrown with a season, a series, anything on the line? Look, Trelle's a great pitcher, but arguing Willis over Beckett as Ace is just like saying you'd give Mark Redman the ball in the playoffs over John Smoltz. It's just silly. 803407[/snapback] Seems to me people only look at the runs the Marlins have scored, ignoring average, and other numbers. Whats wrong with looking at wins and ERA and downplaying the others? Is it not all about how many runs you let up in the end of the day? Who's carried this team and picked them up and who tends to stumble through and get hurt during the regular season? 803413[/snapback] We are talking about two different things. When we speak of the offense we are talking about their performance in a whole. Their job is to score runs and not pile up high or low batting averages. In this case we are comparing two pitchers. When comparing two pitchers you use individual stats on their performance. Wins depend on how and when the offense scores runs and doesn't properly gauge a pitcher's performance accurately.
June 10, 200521 yr Here's a lesson for you Marlins. W/L is the worst way to gauge how good a pitcher is. Josh Beckett Career: ERA: 3.36 WHIP: 1.24 BAA: .228 K/9: 9.11 Dontrelle Willis ERA: 3.40 WHIP: 1.29 BAA: .257 K/9: 7.06 Advantage Beckett. Your numbers are a little off ESPN has not added tonights game yet. MLB.com says for Beckett: ERA: 3.43 WHIP: 1.25 AVG: .233 k/9: 9.09 I would expect someone who seems obsessed about runs and offense that you would like the guy who allows less runs on average.I guess we just ignored Beckett's edge in the other three categories then. How many shutouts has Willis thrown with a season, a series, anything on the line? Look, Trelle's a great pitcher, but arguing Willis over Beckett as Ace is just like saying you'd give Mark Redman the ball in the playoffs over John Smoltz. It's just silly. 803407[/snapback] Seems to me people only look at the runs the Marlins have scored, ignoring average, and other numbers. Whats wrong with looking at wins and ERA and downplaying the others? Is it not all about how many runs you let up in the end of the day? Who's carried this team and picked them up and who tends to stumble through and get hurt during the regular season? 803413[/snapback] We are talking about two different things. When we speak of the offense we are talking about their performance in a whole. Their job is to score runs and not pile up high or low batting averages. In this case we are comparing two pitchers. When comparing two pitchers you use individual stats on their performance. Wins depend on how and when the offense scores runs and doesn't properly gauge a pitcher's performance accurately. 803417[/snapback] If you are comparing two pitchers wouldn't the biggest stat to look at is how many runs they allow on average? If you were given this: Pitcher 1: 3.40 ERA/34-19/7 CG/4 SHO/1.29 WHIP/7.09 k/9/.257 BAA Pitcher 2: 3.43 ERA/33-30/2 CG/2 SHO/1.25 WHIP/9.09 K/9/.233 BAA Who would you think is better? Pitcher 1 lets up 1 extra runner every 25 innings, and WHIP makes BAA a bit unnessacary since WHIP basically takes into account batting average and walks. Pitcher two strikes out more, but pitcher one seems to know how to perform for his team to win and can finish games. Oh yeah and pitcher 1 can hurt the other team in the batters box a career .222 hitter with 2 HRs and a .253 OBP versus pitcher 2 .135 hitter and a .172 OBP and no HRs. Did Dontrelle lay stinkers in the NLDS and NLCS in 2003? Yes but he did not let up a run in 3 apperances in the World Series. He also helped bring the team to the playoffs in 2003.
June 10, 200521 yr Here's a lesson for you Marlins. W/L is the worst way to gauge how good a pitcher is. Josh Beckett Career: ERA: 3.36 WHIP: 1.24 BAA: .228 K/9: 9.11 Dontrelle Willis ERA: 3.40 WHIP: 1.29 BAA: .257 K/9: 7.06 Advantage Beckett. Your numbers are a little off ESPN has not added tonights game yet. MLB.com says for Beckett: ERA: 3.43 WHIP: 1.25 AVG: .233 k/9: 9.09 I would expect someone who seems obsessed about runs and offense that you would like the guy who allows less runs on average.I guess we just ignored Beckett's edge in the other three categories then. How many shutouts has Willis thrown with a season, a series, anything on the line? Look, Trelle's a great pitcher, but arguing Willis over Beckett as Ace is just like saying you'd give Mark Redman the ball in the playoffs over John Smoltz. It's just silly. 803407[/snapback] Seems to me people only look at the runs the Marlins have scored, ignoring average, and other numbers. Whats wrong with looking at wins and ERA and downplaying the others? Is it not all about how many runs you let up in the end of the day? Who's carried this team and picked them up and who tends to stumble through and get hurt during the regular season? 803413[/snapback] We are talking about two different things. When we speak of the offense we are talking about their performance in a whole. Their job is to score runs and not pile up high or low batting averages. In this case we are comparing two pitchers. When comparing two pitchers you use individual stats on their performance. Wins depend on how and when the offense scores runs and doesn't properly gauge a pitcher's performance accurately. 803417[/snapback] If you are comparing two pitchers wouldn't the biggest stat to look at is how many runs they allow on average? If you were given this: Pitcher 1: 3.40 ERA/34-19/7 CG/4 SHO/1.29 WHIP/7.09 k/9/.257 BAA Pitcher 2: 3.43 ERA/33-30/2 CG/2 SHO/1.25 WHIP/9.09 K/9/.233 BAA Who would you think is better? Pitcher 1 lets up 1 extra runner every 25 innings, and WHIP makes BAA a bit unnessacary since WHIP basically takes into account batting average and walks. Pitcher two strikes out more, but pitcher one seems to know how to perform for his team to win and can finish games. Oh yeah and pitcher 1 can hurt the other team in the batters box a career .222 hitter with 2 HRs and a .253 OBP versus pitcher 2 .135 hitter and a .172 OBP and no HRs. Did Dontrelle lay stinkers in the NLDS and NLCS in 2003? Yes but he did not let up a run in 3 apperances in the World Series. He also helped bring the team to the playoffs in 2003. 803419[/snapback] I'd take the guy with the higher K ratio and the lower WHIP. #2 has better stats then #1 even though he's been injured for a part of his career. I really don't care about a pitcher's hitting stats. That won't help him pitch or become an ace.
June 10, 200521 yr Part of being an ace as well is who do you trust more on the mound in an important series. In the case of these two, the numbers are not that rapidly different...but who has the better history and who has a tougher mindset? Thats the type of thing you have to look at as well to figure who is an ace.
June 10, 200521 yr he did not let up a run in 3 apperances in the World Series. 803419[/snapback] It's probably in the best interest of your argument to not mention the 2003 World Series, it just makes the Beckett supporters case a bit stronger. I agree with the sentiment that if we have a game we need to win I want Beckett on the mound. I've seen what he can do when the game is a must... NLCS Game 5, NLCS Game 7, World Series Game 6
June 10, 200521 yr Part of being an ace as well is who do you trust more on the mound in an important series. In the case of these two, the numbers are not that rapidly different...but who has the better history and who has a tougher mindset? Thats the type of thing you have to look at as well to figure who is an ace. 803425[/snapback] I didn't see a damn thing you typed because of your sig. I think I love you.
June 10, 200521 yr Part of being an ace as well is who do you trust more on the mound in an important series. In the case of these two, the numbers are not that rapidly different...but who has the better history and who has a tougher mindset? Thats the type of thing you have to look at as well to figure who is an ace. 803425[/snapback] I didn't see a damn thing you typed because of your sig. I think I love you. 803429[/snapback] :kiss2
June 10, 200521 yr he did not let up a run in 3 apperances in the World Series. 803419[/snapback] It's probably in the best interest of your argument to not mention the 2003 World Series, it just makes the Beckett supporters case a bit stronger. I agree with the sentiment that if we have a game we need to win I want Beckett on the mound. I've seen what he can do when the game is a must... NLCS Game 5, NLCS Game 7, World Series Game 6 803426[/snapback] He woulda pitched a gem if it hadn't rained during Game 3.
June 10, 200521 yr he did not let up a run in 3 apperances in the World Series. 803419[/snapback] It's probably in the best interest of your argument to not mention the 2003 World Series, it just makes the Beckett supporters case a bit stronger. I agree with the sentiment that if we have a game we need to win I want Beckett on the mound. I've seen what he can do when the game is a must... NLCS Game 5, NLCS Game 7, World Series Game 6 803426[/snapback] I know what Josh did in the 2003 playoffs versus what Willis did and I am not taking anything away from either. Lets not forget though in game one of the world series Penny left the 5th inning with a one run lead and Willis came in and kept the lead for a couple of inning before letting Urbina get the last 4 outs. This is after he had those bad games in the NLDS and NLCS talk about sucking it up. Game one of the world series and you are called on to nurse the lead for more than two innings in New York after blowing your last couple apperances. That is clutch. Beckett was hot all along and rolling. But Willis did win his last three starts of the 2003 regular season as well very important games as well. Willis also has show he can stay healthy and be the stopper when it comes to a losing streak. As I pointed out before Beckett has only won back to back starts 6 times, and never more than two consecutive starts from what I see. D-Train has won 7 in a row this year. An ace knows how to carry his team and let them know every 5 days he will deliever. Aces also are always there to pick their team up and be there every 5 days something Beckett has not shown he can promise yet either.
June 10, 200521 yr This is just hideous baseball. And I fault the players as much as I fault McKeon for not trying to start playing small ball again. For Example: Mariners game, bottom of the 5th. Lowell on first and Pierre at the plate. 0 outs. You SHOULD drop a bunt w/ one of the league's best bunter move Lowell to second. The worst case scenario is that pierre lays a horrible bunt and you have one out w/ a runner on first. Which ended up happening anyway (hindsight is 20-20). Come ON Jack! It's a close ballgame (at this point only 1-0) and you're offense has been struggling for the past 2 weeks. you KNOW runs are not going to come easy and you are going to have to make some small plays to string a couple along. Everyone knows that our hitting w/ RISP is horrible. And our defense has been somewhat shaky (minus the middle infield) and the bullpen has sucked. All around hideous baseball. But on the plus end Alex is helping himself out in this free agency year w/ a better bat (you can't help but wonder what degree of selfishness Alex has knowing that if he can swing the bat and end close to .300 he has a big payday coming. Read La Russa's book if you disagree with me)
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. The loser may be better than the winner, but he's a loser, so the winner is better. Willis brings you wins and success while Josh doesn't. So even if you say Josh is better, which statistics prove wrong, you should go with Dontrelle. If Josh were to go out and pitch the whole game allowing just 1 run and the Marlins wouldn't score anything and we'd lose 1-0 vs. Dontrelle pitching 7 innings and allowing 3 runs and the Marlins scoring 4 runs and winning 4-3--then you'd pick Dontrelle even though Josh pitched better because Dontrelle had success.
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. 803783[/snapback] So Brian Moehler has been a loser this season then?
June 10, 200521 yr Sure, people only caare about W-L for their team, but when it comes to evaluating a pitcher people look at ERA, WHIP, and Ks moe than W-L. Why? Because its a better gauge on his ability
June 10, 200521 yr He's not our ace, ok? One game playoff, any pitcher can pitch - Josh gets the ball. He is the ace.Josh is the Ace but Dontrelle is pitching like an Ace.I never said he wasn't, but that is irrelevent to the topic at hand. Trelle is pitching better, AJ has better stuff, Moehler has better numbers, all irrelevent. Josh is the ace. 803180[/snapback] Correct, and Agreed.
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. 803783[/snapback] So Brian Moehler has been a loser this season then? 803786[/snapback] No. Obviously when you get a pitcher in place of your hurt #5 starter you're happy with any production at all, and Moehler has been much better than we expected. However, he hasn't had success, unlike Willis who has had success, so I'd throw Willis out there before Moehler. You go with the hott hand and the guy who's bringing you wins, not good pitching performances and losses.
June 10, 200521 yr I'd throw Willis out there before Moehler. That wasn't my question, I was just questioning your point that wins is the only stat that matters. If wins is what makes a pitcher good then wouldn't Moehler's record this year make him not that good since you ignore other "unimportant" stats
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. The loser may be better than the winner, but he's a loser, so the winner is better. Willis brings you wins and success while Josh doesn't. So even if you say Josh is better, which statistics prove wrong, you should go with Dontrelle. If Josh were to go out and pitch the whole game allowing just 1 run and the Marlins wouldn't score anything and we'd lose 1-0 vs. Dontrelle pitching 7 innings and allowing 3 runs and the Marlins scoring 4 runs and winning 4-3--then you'd pick Dontrelle even though Josh pitched better because Dontrelle had success.803783[/snapback] How the f*** could you say that and truely believe it? The only stat Willis has in his favor by a wide margin is W/L. Is it Beckett's fault the offense didn't score any runs for him? No. Lets see: Beckett: CG, 1 run allowed Willis: 7 IP, 3 runs allowed Who had the better start? Josh Beckett. Judging pitching based on W/L and what the offense does for you in starts is idiot.
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. 803783[/snapback] So Brian Moehler has been a loser this season then? 803786[/snapback] No. Obviously when you get a pitcher in place of your hurt #5 starter you're happy with any production at all, and Moehler has been much better than we expected. However, he hasn't had success, unlike Willis who has had success, so I'd throw Willis out there before Moehler. You go with the hott hand and the guy who's bringing you wins, not good pitching performances and losses. 803797[/snapback] you didnt answer the question he asked if moehler had been a loser, not if he was better than ______ or if he was the ace of the staff
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. The loser may be better than the winner, but he's a loser, so the winner is better. Willis brings you wins and success while Josh doesn't. So even if you say Josh is better, which statistics prove wrong, you should go with Dontrelle. If Josh were to go out and pitch the whole game allowing just 1 run and the Marlins wouldn't score anything and we'd lose 1-0 vs. Dontrelle pitching 7 innings and allowing 3 runs and the Marlins scoring 4 runs and winning 4-3--then you'd pick Dontrelle even though Josh pitched better because Dontrelle had success.803783[/snapback] How the f*** could you say that and truely believe it? The only stat Willis has in his favor by a wide margin is W/L. Is it Beckett's fault the offense didn't score any runs for him? No. Lets see: Beckett: CG, 1 run allowed Willis: 7 IP, 3 runs allowed Who had the better start? Josh Beckett. Judging pitching based on W/L and what the offense does for you in starts is idiot. 803803[/snapback] I'm not saying it's Beckett's fault. But if you continue seeing that one pitcher pitches great and looses and another pitcher pitches "OK" and wins then you're going to go with the 2nd pitcher.
June 10, 200521 yr This may be a small point, but Dontrelle's superior fielding and hitting skills may cover for small disadvantages in things like WHIP and ERA, and lead to more wins than would normally be expected. I'm hardly saying that this is the case right now, but over the course of his career, it would hardly surprise me if those things translated to 5 extra wins for him, and possibly even more. I think some of you go too far in discounting the value of the wins stat.
June 10, 200521 yr I think some of you go too far in discounting the value of the wins stat. 803810[/snapback] I think they do too considering these two guys play for the same team meaning they have the same team behind them. Its not like Josh is playing for Kansas City.
June 10, 200521 yr I'd throw Willis out there before Moehler. That wasn't my question, I was just questioning your point that wins is the only stat that matters. If wins is what makes a pitcher good then wouldn't Moehler's record this year make him not that good since you ignore other "unimportant" stats 803801[/snapback] Moehler has been pitching good but his results haven't been so great. Results>Performance
June 10, 200521 yr I'd throw Willis out there before Moehler. That wasn't my question, I was just questioning your point that wins is the only stat that matters. If wins is what makes a pitcher good then wouldn't Moehler's record this year make him not that good since you ignore other "unimportant" stats 803801[/snapback] Moehler has been pitching good but his results haven't been so great. Results>Performance 803814[/snapback] you are absolutely retarded
June 10, 200521 yr People only care about results. They don't care how you got them, just as long as you got them you're fine. Success is what matters. Winners win and losers lose, that's how it goes. The loser may be better than the winner, but he's a loser, so the winner is better. Willis brings you wins and success while Josh doesn't. So even if you say Josh is better, which statistics prove wrong, you should go with Dontrelle. If Josh were to go out and pitch the whole game allowing just 1 run and the Marlins wouldn't score anything and we'd lose 1-0 vs. Dontrelle pitching 7 innings and allowing 3 runs and the Marlins scoring 4 runs and winning 4-3--then you'd pick Dontrelle even though Josh pitched better because Dontrelle had success.803783[/snapback] How the f*** could you say that and truely believe it? The only stat Willis has in his favor by a wide margin is W/L. Is it Beckett's fault the offense didn't score any runs for him? No. Lets see: Beckett: CG, 1 run allowed Willis: 7 IP, 3 runs allowed Who had the better start? Josh Beckett. Judging pitching based on W/L and what the offense does for you in starts is idiot. 803803[/snapback] I'm not saying it's Beckett's fault. But if you continue seeing that one pitcher pitches great and looses and another pitcher pitches "OK" and wins then you're going to go with the 2nd pitcher. 803808[/snapback] No, you go with the guy that pitches great and hope he wins in the crucial situations. Once upon a time the Marlins had an OK pitcher that found a way to win. Come playoff time he was exposed. Along came the guy with career .500 record. Everyone knew he was the better pitcher and his record didn't show how great he is. Long story short that pitcher shut out the Cubs game 5, pitched relief game 7. Then proceeded to shut out the Yankees to clinch the world title. The one that found a way to win during the season bombed in the WS.
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