Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

I wanna know where all the outcry was when Giambi, Juan Gone x 2, Mo Vaughn, Frank Thomas, and Canseco won it...defense was never part of it then...why should it be now?

 

People need to face the facts that the DH is a position and a big part of the American League and a player shouldnt be slighted because he plays that position, especially one who was more valuable to his playoff team's success then anyone.

 

 

 

In '95 I am with you and I think Joey Belle got robbed.

 

However, for almost every other case I think the races were pretty clear cut and easily decided.

 

Giambi's MVP came over Frank Thomas btw.

 

If the HRs, AVG and RBI were not so close, combined with such similar team records, defense would not have played a part in anyones mind.

 

 

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

 

 

Nobody is saying a DH can not win the award, I have yet to come accross that post. However, what is being said is when the final numbers and team performance is so similar, defense should have a role and that is a very logical and valid point.

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

Mo's slugging, OBP, and obviously OPS are lower. Edgar couldn't help it that Griffey and Buhner were clearing the bases in front of him.

 

:mischief

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

Mo's slugging, OBP, and obviously OPS are lower. Edgar couldn't help it that Griffey and Buhner were clearing the bases in front of him.

 

:mischief

 

How about Albert Belle that year?

 

He finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite batting 17 points higher, 11 more HRs, higher OPS, OBP, SLG, 2B, BB, TB and only 1 less RBI.

 

Oh yeah, his team finished with an MLB Best 100-44 record, 14 games better than the Mo Vaughn Red Sox.

 

Someone explain that to me.

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

Mo's slugging, OBP, and obviously OPS are lower. Edgar couldn't help it that Griffey and Buhner were clearing the bases in front of him.

 

:mischief

 

How about Albert Belle that year?

 

He finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite batting 17 points higher, 11 more HRs, higher OPS, OBP, SLG, 2B, BB, TB and only 1 less RBI.

 

Oh yeah, his team finished with an MLB Best 100-44 record, 14 games better than the Mo Vaughn Red Sox.

 

Someone explain that to me. That is the biggest bunch of bull in MVP voting.

Vaughn had the protection and greatness of Alicea, MacFarlane, Naehring, Tinsley, and O' Leary (not knocking you Troy, you are one of my favorite all time players) around him.

 

:plain

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

Mo's slugging, OBP, and obviously OPS are lower. Edgar couldn't help it that Griffey and Buhner were clearing the bases in front of him.

 

:mischief

 

How about Albert Belle that year?

 

He finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite batting 17 points higher, 11 more HRs, higher OPS, OBP, SLG, 2B, BB, TB and only 1 less RBI.

 

Oh yeah, his team finished with an MLB Best 100-44 record, 14 games better than the Mo Vaughn Red Sox.

 

Someone explain that to me. That is the biggest bunch of bull in MVP voting.

Vaughn had the protection and greatness of Alicea, MacFarlane, Naehring, Tinsley, and O' Leary (not knocking you Troy, you are one of my favorite all time players) around him.

 

:plain

 

So is that argument more valid than Arod playing defense?

 

Belle not only led Vaughn in almost every major category, but he also led the MLB in several of them I believe.

 

Just food for thought.

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

Mo's slugging, OBP, and obviously OPS are lower. Edgar couldn't help it that Griffey and Buhner were clearing the bases in front of him.

 

:mischief

 

How about Albert Belle that year?

 

He finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite batting 17 points higher, 11 more HRs, higher OPS, OBP, SLG, 2B, BB, TB and only 1 less RBI.

 

Oh yeah, his team finished with an MLB Best 100-44 record, 14 games better than the Mo Vaughn Red Sox.

 

Someone explain that to me. That is the biggest bunch of bull in MVP voting.

Vaughn had the protection and greatness of Alicea, MacFarlane, Naehring, Tinsley, and O' Leary (not knocking you Troy, you are one of my favorite all time players) around him.

 

:plain

 

So is that argument more valid than Arod playing defense?

 

Belle not only led Vaughn in almost every major category, but he also led the MLB in several of them I believe.

 

Just food for thought.

When it comes to pitching around players, RBIs, and runs...hell yeah its a valid point. I really dont care about the 95 MVP race, 10 years later although my child and probably biased mind remembers Vaughn as a beast that year. Plus, you will carry this out as long as you want, and I really have no pinion or heart in this argument.

 

And no, A-Rod's defense shouldnt carry weight against a player who doesnt play defense at all...you cant compare something to something that isnt there. Ortiz was the most valuable hitter in the league this year.

Speaking of Mo Vaughn, he didn't deserve his MVP. Edgar Martinez lost out on an MVP in 1995 with these stats:

 

.356/.479/.628 29 HR 113 RBI

 

Yeah, folks, that's an 1.100 OPS

 

And Vaughn had 10 more home runs, 26 more RBIs. Vaughn's team was better regular season as well. Those were more important in 95 then they are now. When it comes down to it, the MVP is batting, homers, RBIs, team success and player's value to the team.

 

But then again Edgar was a DH, so that automatically boots him out per this board.

Mo's slugging, OBP, and obviously OPS are lower. Edgar couldn't help it that Griffey and Buhner were clearing the bases in front of him.

 

:mischief

 

How about Albert Belle that year?

 

He finished 2nd in the MVP voting despite batting 17 points higher, 11 more HRs, higher OPS, OBP, SLG, 2B, BB, TB and only 1 less RBI.

 

Oh yeah, his team finished with an MLB Best 100-44 record, 14 games better than the Mo Vaughn Red Sox.

 

Someone explain that to me. That is the biggest bunch of bull in MVP voting.

Vaughn had the protection and greatness of Alicea, MacFarlane, Naehring, Tinsley, and O' Leary (not knocking you Troy, you are one of my favorite all time players) around him.

 

:plain

 

So is that argument more valid than Arod playing defense?

 

Belle not only led Vaughn in almost every major category, but he also led the MLB in several of them I believe.

 

Just food for thought.

When it comes to pitching around players, RBIs, and runs...hell yeah its a valid point. I really dont care about the 95 MVP race, 10 years later although my child and probably biased mind remembers Vaughn as a beast that year. Plus, you will carry this out as long as you want, and I really have no pinion or heart in this argument.

 

And no, A-Rod's defense shouldnt carry weight against a player who doesnt play defense at all...you cant compare something to something that isnt there. Ortiz was the most valuable hitter in the league this year.

 

Alright Ill drophere it bc I did not mean this to become an argument or debate, I was just trying to prove a point but I just wanted to point on a couple of things:

 

1. You talked about getting pitched around for Vaughn, but Belle had more walks that year

 

2. I can agree Ortiz was probably the most valuable hitter, but the award is MVP not MVH.

I don't see where Ortiz had an advantage offensively. A-Rod had slightly better raw numbers and a huge advantage once adjustments for ballparks were made. The RBI issue is moot when you consider A-Rod had outstanding MOB & RISP splits and got 20% of his at bats from the 2-hole. If I had to guess, Ortiz lost as many votes for being a DH as A-Rod for being the highest paid player and scapegoat of nearly all Yankee fans over the past 2 years.

I don't see where Ortiz had an advantage offensively. A-Rod had slightly better raw numbers and a huge advantage once adjustments for ballparks were made. The RBI issue is moot when you consider A-Rod had outstanding MOB & RISP splits and got 20% of his at bats from the 2-hole. If I had to guess, Ortiz lost as many votes for being a DH as A-Rod for being the highest paid player and scapegoat of nearly all Yankee fans over the past 2 years.

 

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...ndpost&p=993345

So, is this the most clutch award? No reason to put Ortiz ahead simply because his are incredible and A-Rod's just outstanding. Neither was a fault in their game. And A-Rod came out with better numbers overall, raw and adjusted.

Ortiz was the most valuable hitter in the league this year.

 

I agree. Isn't that what the Silver Slugger award is for?

 

Then, they have the award for the person with [supposedly] the best defense. That person gets a gold glove.

 

For the MVP, in most people's opinions, you should be in the running for both awards. ARod won the Silver Slugger and came in 2nd in voting for GG. With that in mind ARod was the best PLAYER, Player... :hat

So, is this the most clutch award? No reason to put Ortiz ahead simply because his are incredible and A-Rod's just outstanding. Neither was a fault in their game. And A-Rod came out with better numbers overall, raw and adjusted.

 

Of course he did, and I had no problem with him winning, I stated that in this thread.

 

My argument was that it wasnt the slam dunk many of you think it was, that Ortiz was the better hitter, and that Ortiz shouldnt be discoutned because of the position he played.

I give it to A-Rod. In my opinion he contributed more to his teams chances of making the playoffs than Ortiz did.

 

Let's not forget the rotation that New York had last season.

 

Yankees team ERA: 4.52

Red Sox team ERA: 4.74

 

Ortiz contributed more to his team's success: http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...ndpost&p=993345

It wasn't a slam dunk, each had MVP seasons. Certainly there's a good amount of the baseball fan base that thought Ortiz was a slam dunk selection. I heard it, and I don't even pay attention to the AL and the Red Sox as much as you.

 

I don't think Ortiz had to overcome beyond the stats that A-Rod didn't. Remember a lot of media members dislike highly-paid players, and they've been taking cheap shots at A-Rod for years before he demanded out of Texas and landed in New York instead of then-underdog Boston. That incredibly stupid 'A-Rod struggles under pressure' crap that's been repeated throughout the years must have helped win Ortiz a few votes too.

its too bad A-rod's extremley poor post season performance wasnt looked at in this situation. i have friends that are Yankee fans and think its pathetic he won when he couldnt even perform when it counted most.

Belle didn't win it in 1995 because the media hated him.

 

Just like Bonds wouldn't have won it the last few years if there was anyone else they could pretend deserved it.

its too bad A-rod's extremley poor post season performance wasnt looked at in this situation.

 

The voting is done prior to the post season. Your friends are also among the group of Yankee fans who feel like ARod still has to prove himself. This group of fans believe that ARod isn't worth all that $ if he doesn't help us win a WS.

 

If you go back to when we signed ARod, I thought it was a bad idea. Even with his MVP award, I don't like the ARod signing. He cost too much money and prevented us from signing a Mulder or Zito or Colon. I would have MUCH rather given up his bat for a steady 3B and a stud pitcher who isn't a member of AARP.

 

With that said, ARod is starting to win me over. The Yankees hurt themselves by playing poor D, having no rotational depth thanks to injuries to a batch of morons, and not creating runs. ARod's performance in playoffs [1 error aside] didn't hurt us as much as all the rest.

I give it to A-Rod. In my opinion he contributed more to his teams chances of making the playoffs than Ortiz did.

 

Let's not forget the rotation that New York had last season.

 

Yankees team ERA: 4.52

Red Sox team ERA: 4.74

 

Ortiz contributed more to his team's success: http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...ndpost&p=993345

I don't think stats are the best way to decide this.

 

However, those ERAs you provided are very misleading.

 

I was talking about the poor rotation that the Yankees had to put up with for the entire season. If you look at the team ERAs AS STARTER, the ERA for the Yankees is higher. Although it may be only be higher by 0.03, it refutes the point that the Sox had a worse rotation.

 

Also note that the Red Sox play in a hitter's park, so that inflates the ERA's of the starters. So pretty much anyway you look at it, the Yankee starting pitching was worse. Randy Johnson's ERA was more than 1.00 higher than last year and Pavano was a complete bust. For a large portion of the season the Yankees didn't even know who to put in the 5th spot.

 

And those stats for Ortiz don't really tell me anything. They are too situational. I think in determining MVPs it is best to use your own intuition.

They are situational, as in when the game gets tight or close, who steps up more? Ortiz did. Thats more valuable then someone who puts up their best numbers when their team is blowing someone out.

I'm not aware that any of the MVP candidates, certainly not the only one to finish ahead of Ortiz, did not put up great numbers in the so-called clutch statistics.

I'm not aware that any of the MVP candidates, certainly not the only one to finish ahead of Ortiz, did not put up great numbers in the so-called clutch statistics.

 

Since you won't look back at the stats I posted per Jayson Stark...Ill repost my post again... :banghead

Alex Rodriguez had 24 more at-bats with runners in scoring position than David Ortiz this season -- and still drove in 18 fewer runs.

Ortiz hit 62 points higher than A-Rod did with runners in scoring position (.352 to .290) overall.

In the late innings of close games, A-Rod hit .176 with men in scoring position; Ortiz batted .313. That's a humongous, 137-point difference.

Ortiz's OPS (on-base plus slugging) in those situations was 1.224 -- to A-Rod's .813. That's a 411-point chasm.

A-Rod was vastly more productive in the Yankees' blowout wins than he was in games where a hit either way was the difference between winning and losing.

In the 20 games each of their teams won by six or more runs, A-Rod hit .549, had an OPS of 1.793 and racked up 46 of his 130 RBI (35 percent). Ortiz, on the other hand, batted .277, had an OPS almost 800 points lower than A-Rod's (.999) and drove in only 33 runs (22 percent of his overall total).

In close games -- and each team played exactly 65 of them -- A-Rod batted only .243, had an OPS of .805 and drove in just 38 runs (29 percent). Ortiz, meanwhile, clearly tapped some mysterious force that made him even better in moments like that -- batting .321, running up an OPS of 1.116 and knocking in nearly a run a game (62 -- or 42 percent of his overall total).

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stor...yson&id=2224114

Again, what's the difference between great, outstanding and incredible?

 

None of these players put "up their best numbers when their team is blowing someone out."

Again, what's the difference between great, outstanding and incredible?

 

None of these players put "up their best numbers when their team is blowing someone out."

 

In the 20 games each of their teams won by six or more runs, A-Rod hit .549, had an OPS of 1.793 and racked up 46 of his 130 RBI (35 percent). Ortiz, on the other hand, batted .277, had an OPS almost 800 points lower than A-Rod's (.999) and drove in only 33 runs (22 percent of his overall total).

 

Can you read?

I can read that A-Rod had outstanding numbers in the clutch situations. That Ortiz was better - okay, much better - is worthless to the argument IMO.