If you fools don't know when you're being manipulated I can't even feel pity for you.

 

 

Is that you David Samson?

start from scratch with the best potential talent.

 

 

Are they really doing that? Figuring what we got for Castillo and what we expect to get for Pierre?

 

PS:

 

I thought I made it clear in my post that the Delgado and Beckett trades were OK in the context of rebuilding, from here on in, it appears we're more preoccupied with clearing payroll than getting the best value back.

Again, could that not be a difference of opinion between Beinfest and you? How many trades have we questioned here over the years? You seriously don't think they're trying to build a winner?

 

Or is it simply that you don't care because you've convinced yourself that by the time they're done rebuilding they won't be your team any more?

 

 

Excuse me, but what's the point of being a crappy, mediocre team at .500? To support the handful of die-hards fans who've stuck it out? If your goal is to build another championship team, once you start disassembling the team, you might as well hit the "reset" button, and start from scratch with the best potential talent.

 

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe to show the fans that you care about them a little bit. I mean, throw us a bone at this point. Not to mention that it looks like these kids will have zero veteran leadership on the field next year. At this point, it looks like Cabrera will be the "veteran leader" of the squad. Now, don't get me wrong, Cabrera is a great player and I am a big fan of his. But all indications are that he is still immature, acting like a prima dona at times and generally not the player you want to be set up as an example for the rest of the team.

The restructuring isn't over yet. It's too soon to say the club won't bring in a few free agents or retain Conine.

 

However.. about this show the fans argument. Why? If the fans didn't come out for Delgado or the compettive 2003-5 teams... why now? Every effort taken has been rejected by local politicians and the potential fan base. Unlike some, I don't think they're done trying, but I am beginning to wonder why bother.

Excuse me, but what's the point of being a crappy, mediocre team at .500? To support the handful of die-hards fans who've stuck it out? If your goal is to build another championship team, once you start disassembling the team, you might as well hit the "reset" button, and start from scratch with the best potential talent.

 

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe to show the fans that you care about them a little bit. I mean, throw us a bone at this point. Not to mention that it looks like these kids will have zero veteran leadership on the field next year. At this point, it looks like Cabrera will be the "veteran leader" of the squad. Now, don't get me wrong, Cabrera is a great player and I am a big fan of his. But all indications are that he is still immature, acting like a prima dona at times and generally not the player you want to be set up as an example for the rest of the team.

The restructuring isn't over yet. It's too soon to say the club won't bring in a few free agents or retain Conine.

 

However.. about this show the fans argument. Why? If the fans didn't come out for Delgado or the compettive 2003-5 teams... why now? Every effort taken has been rejected by local politicians and the potential fan base. Unlike some, I don't think they're done trying, but I am beginning to wonder why bother.

 

Yes, the restructuring isn't over yet and they may very well bring in a few free agents. However, with all of the proven major league talent getting dumped I doubt other veterans will exactly be clamoring to come here. And that is assuming the Marlins are courting free agents or will court free agents. I have seen no indication of that yet.

 

As far as treating the fans right, the Marlins FO seems to have come to the conclusion you alluded to in your last sentence ? why bother. Fan attendance has been increasing in recent years, just not at the pace some would have liked. It takes awhile to build up a fan base when you decimate a good chunk of that fan base every five or so years.

You can complain about the FO all you want, but the fact remains that they own the team and can, unfortunately, do with it what they want.

 

This firesale is painful on so many levels but unless someone comes up with a whole bunch of cash, some land and a plan we, the fans, are flat-out stuck. Complaining about management is just complaining, although it really seems to me like there is a fixed plan to move already and that this "market correction" is just going to drive fans away thereby justifying the "move."

 

If MLB really believes this is a "big market," then step in and bail out the fish with all the money they're going to make by the impending sale of the Nationals. Until then hope and prayers seem to be the only chance we have.

 

Meh. :thumbdown

If MLB really believes this is a "big market,"...

Meh. :thumbdown

 

 

Every trade has to be approved by MLB.

I wrote an e-mail to Mike Berardino today and asked him a few questions. He's actually quite responsive. I've e-mailed him before and he was just as responsive.

If MLB really believes this is a "big market," then step in and bail out the fish with all the money they're going to make by the impending sale of the Nationals. Until then hope and prayers seem to be the only chance we have.

 

Why would they wish to set that precedent?

 

What would they demand of the Marlins and the county for the help? Would the two be willing to be bound by the decisions of the MLB office?

If you fools don't know when you're being manipulated I can't even feel pity for you.

 

 

We fools don't want your pity! SO THERE!

 

Wallow in your delusional hell all you want.

 

Hopefully all you haters will disappear into your bunkers with your conspiracy theories, hate and misplaced anger, and we can get back to talking baseball.

 

 

i don't get this. really, how are we supposed to look at this. I like the article, regardless of what analogies he used. Yes, this is a firesale. The only difference from 98 is that the team isnt up for sale. but still, its a cutting of salary to make the team somewhat profitable.

 

How are we being manipulated here? Veterans are being traded for AA and AAA talent. Most teams add talent to make themselves competitve and we are literally giving it away. You're telling me we couldn't get Veteran talent for Beckett and Delgado? Come on.

 

Oh, and btw, this is one of the biggest stories in baseball not to mention in marlins baseball right now. So please, enlighten me on what marlins news you rather talk about? Go ahead, I dare you to put a good spin on fielding a AAA team in a MLB uniform and make them play in Dolphins Stadium next year. Here, I'll give you a start; Parking will be easier and more plentiful and there will be more empty seats for you to put your feet up.

I don't think when it really comes down to it that this has anything to do with what kind of players we're getting in return for the deals we've made. That's a seperate issue. These are high-calibur players being dealt for prospects, any way you look at it. Even if they're good prospects, most fans aren't crazy about the fact that we're going through a fire sale again, and in that aspect Berardino is correct. If this isn't a fire sale then I don't know what is.

 

Yes the FO has money problems here. That being the case, why were they spending over their means when they have no stadium deal in place? What was Loria doing signing Delgado and Leiter to massive deals when a salary purge like this was inevitable? Yes it's nice that he wanted to make a run at the playoffs last season, but so what if they HAD made the playoffs & lost? The very same situation would be playing itself out now. Samson's said they could've drawn 4 million fans last year & they'd be in the same spot. I can't imagine that the FO had that much faith that a stadium deal was in the bag to go out & overspend.

 

Not sure where I'm going with that, but it seems like they could've made one or two fewer moves last year and saved themselves the trouble of one giant fire sale..

 

I am not negative, and I'll go to just as many games as I typically do next season. I loved watching the '98 team after that fire sale, and I'll love watching the '06 team. I have no problem with a team rebuilding with kids. But this was handled terribly.

 

You hit it on the head. The two things that keep eating at me that won't let me totally believe Loria are the Montreal situation and the Hampton money. The strike killed baseball in Montreal. Baseball Weekly ran an article around the time Loria sold them to MLB showing the drastic drop-off in attendance after the strike, but Loria was the one on watch when they ran into the ground. The Hampton thing bothers me, too. We were initially told we could afford Delgado because Hampton's contract would be up, and that money would cover Carlos. Well, now Hampton's contract is done, Carlos is gone, and we're still cutting payroll. Those numbers aren't adding up. And MLB has a long history of not allowing teams to open their books to prove their losses. All the secrecy around the finances is what fuels the conspiracy theories.

Do you advocate cutting off your nose to spite your face? Because that's exactly what the Marlins are doing. As recently as a week ago, the entire south florida media was united in saying that it was the fans fault, that Loria and Samson were just doing what needed to be done. Delgado came, not enough showed up to see him play, and now we're without him. Lowell had to go, Beckett was the price.

 

Now, though, it's evident that the Marlins have set their sights not on rebuilding, but on destroying. Destroying the team, the fanbase, and any sort of good will at all around the franchise.

 

Perhaps you don't have a problem with the Castillo trade, that's fine, but there's more to come, and I have this odd feeling it won't end well.

 

Obviously the fans aren't alone in disliking the way that this (so aptly named) nuclear winter has gone. The media, the politicians, anyone who has anything to do with this franchise can't stand to be witness to what this ownership group is doing. Heck, the only one who can seemingly find them friendly to deal with is a former lawyer for some of the most nefarious mob bosses in recent history...says something, doesn't it?

 

You hit it out of the park and out of the stadium as far as Im concerned. Its amazing how they were so creative with payroll in the past to make things work. But now they are as creative as an anger driven teenager taking out his angst on an abandoned house with a baseball bat. If they had even a tiny desire to continue to work things out in S. Florida, they would have stopped while they were ahead or at least drawn things out to make it easier on fans. They know exactly what they are doing and it doesn't involve flowers and hugs.

 

The only issue in my mind is whether or not the city that gets googly eyed with them next has some residents that see them for what they are and fight not to hand them a stadium.

 

Loria and Samson are like the serial wife beaters of owners. They beat their first wife pretty bad and got their buddy at the police station to let them off the hook. The second wife was a bitch and cheated on them, but they went too far when they beat the crap out of her. Who will be the third naive women to allow these men into her life?

The strike killed baseball in Montreal. Baseball Weekly ran an article around the time Loria sold them to MLB showing the drastic drop-off in attendance after the strike, but Loria was the one on watch when they ran into the ground.

 

Those are lies, purported by those who don't like MLB's financial structure and those who for whatever reason hated Loria in Montreal (and I can assure you, it wasn't simply for his role with the team).

When the Blue Jays came into being, MLB gave them a a near full share in the Ontario TV market. This cut the Expos' TV revenue significantly, and as the 1980s wore on, salaries climbed and teams were relying more and more on broadcast rights revenue, the orginal owner of the Expos decided to sell the team. When he left, he said he was unsure of Montreal's status as a major league market. He sold to a bunch of local investors, headed by Claude Brochu, who went about and traded every bit of talent the Expos had. By the time they invited Loria on, this team of rich local owners had soured relations with fans, politicians and local businesses to the point they had twice offered to sell the team to Bill Collins, a DC/N. VA resident who wished to relocate the team. Loria was the fall guy.

How can it be a lie? When the strike hit in 1994 the Expos were in first place, most likely going to win the NL East, and possibly finish with the best record in baseball. They had 22,390 fans per game, their highest average per game since 1983. After the strike the per game attendance dropped by about 20%. Then in 1998 it dropped to 50% of 1994's level where it remained until they moved.

 

The Blue Jays entered the league in 1977. It's ridiculous to claim that it took 20 years for the impact of the Jays to finally kill off the Expos. The exchange rate for salaries was a bigger part of the problem than that.

 

You also ignore Loria's failing to procure things like English-language radio broadcasts in the last years he owned the Expos. In a parallel with what's going on here, they hinged their entire ownership on getting a new stadium to generate revenue. They badly mishandled media/fan relations. Compare how Arte Moreno is seen as to Loria, and it's evident Loria isn't so hot. He may be well-intentioned, but he keeps giving off the vibe of someone who is in over his head. That's bad for the Marlins, and it's bad for baseball.

How can it be a lie? When the strike hit in 1994 the Expos were in first place, most likely going to win the NL East, and possibly finish with the best record in baseball. They had 22,390 fans per game, their highest average per game since 1983. After the strike the per game attendance dropped by about 20%. Then in 1998 it dropped to 50% of 1994's level where it remained until they moved.

 

The Blue Jays entered the league in 1977. It's ridiculous to claim that it took 20 years for the impact of the Jays to finally kill off the Expos. The exchange rate for salaries was a bigger part of the problem than that.

 

You also ignore Loria's failing to procure things like English-language radio broadcasts in the last years he owned the Expos. In a parallel with what's going on here, they hinged their entire ownership on getting a new stadium to generate revenue. They badly mishandled media/fan relations. Compare how Arte Moreno is seen as to Loria, and it's evident Loria isn't so hot. He may be well-intentioned, but he keeps giving off the vibe of someone who is in over his head. That's bad for the Marlins, and it's bad for baseball.

 

 

The english language broadcaster wanted to be PAID to broadcast the games, as opposed to the way all other radio deals go, where the broadcaster pays the franchise.

What reason do they have to lie? For one thing, to deflect blame from them and their constituents. And to attack something or someone they blame for their failings.

 

Why is it not the truth? Because the business of baseball was moving away where you could rely on simply good attendance. The Expos had been cut off from the more profitable television markets in Canada in the early 80s. At the time this was a bit of nothing, but as broadcast revenue became one of the key revenue sources for major league clubs and esclating costs elsewhere, it became a key reason in the longtim owner's decision to sell, the local owner's reason to cut back on salary and start the process of moving the club from Montreal. Under Brochu, local support among the fan base and business community suffered as they cut back on salary and weakened the team's talent. They had twice offered the team to someone who wanted to move them to DC BEFORE they even brought in Loria. The situation was hopeless by the point Loria got in, and rejected bids he found unacceptable. Yes, the fans suffered, but at a point you have to make some effort to right the ship. The Expos were going to have a hard time if they stayed in Montreal, but continuing to back down and reducing revenue sources which you and many others suggest Loria do for a fan base that 1. wasn't coming out and 2. were pretty much irrevalent in the question of Montreal being a major league town, you're only excelerating the path of destruction. Loria put the line in the sand, and the business community of Montreal showed it wasn't willing to help. Thus signally there was no market in Montreal to draw from. And no reason for the Expos to stay. It was just Loria to say it. However if Brochu had his way, that would have come 5 years previous.

 

Baseball is a business. The owners aren't ATM machines. They don't exist to reward you. If you want one to sell the club or contribute more to a new stadium or increase payroll or improve promotions, you have to make it worth it for them.

Loria got himself into a mess in Montreal. He got himself into a mess in Florida. Now he wants the city and county to save his ass. And if they don't, screw the fans, the Marlins are moving somewhere else! How wonderful!

He has inherited messes.

He has inherited messes.

 

 

Inherited makes it sound like he had no choice - he did have a choice. He could have never bought the Expos.

Then we'd just be blaming the next sucker to buy the Marlins. And I can assure it won't be your dream owner who will turn his back on his other owners and reward you for something you have not deserved nor is to his benefit.

Then we'd just be blaming the next sucker to buy the Marlins. And I can assure it won't be your dream owner who will turn his back on his other owners and reward you for something you have not deserved nor is to his benefit.

 

 

If Cisneros buys the team the Marlins would be playing in a brand new, state of the art beautiful stadium in Miami in 2009. It's obvious that's what would happen. Case closed. Marlins stay in South Florida, get their stadium, and get a billionaire owner/media mogul that will use his media prowess to attract fans to the stadium. Cisneros is the kind of owner the Marlins need: rich, media savvy, and Latin.

All of this still ignores the fact they had a first place team on the field with a growing fan base in 1994. The strike had a significant impact on baseball in Montreal and precipitated the demise of the franchise.

Then we'd just be blaming the next sucker to buy the Marlins. And I can assure it won't be your dream owner who will turn his back on his other owners and reward you for something you have not deserved nor is to his benefit.

 

 

If Cisneros buys the team the Marlins would be playing in a brand new, state of the art beautiful stadium in Miami in 2009. It's obvious that's what would happen. Case closed. Marlins stay in South Florida, get their stadium, and get a billionaire owner/media mogul that will use his media prowess to attract fans to the stadium. Cisneros is the kind of owner the Marlins need: rich, media savvy, and Latin.

Cisneros won't buy the team if it means paying Loria, Diaz and Arriola, building a stadium and making you dinner. MLB won't allow him to if he does any of the latter two.

 

All of this still ignores the fact they had a first place team on the field with a growing fan base in 1994. The strike had a significant impact on baseball in Montreal and precipitated the demise of the franchise.

 

A team that they could not afford to keep due to the limited non-game day revenue, and fan base that was destroyed by the dismantling of the team. This, by the way, occured well before Loria ever step foot in Montreal.

Absolutely it happened before Loria. I wasn't saying it did. My point was Montreal was a viable franchise that had opportunities to succeed, but a lot of inept management plus the strike killed it. There's a good explanation on the Expos' wikipedia site, but the relevant portion is:

 

The strike hurt the team's campaigns for a new stadium, and a local conglomerate failed to invest the necessary funds making it impossible for ownership (such as Jean Coutu and Stephen Bronfman) to retain the talented players on the team. Coutu and Bronfman had the resources to buy the team outright and also build new a "retro" stadium downtown. (Mitch Melnick, CKGM Team 990 and Pat Hickey, Montr?al Gazette). This conglomerate unsuccessfully launched a lawsuit against Major League Baseball years later.

 

In 1995, led by Claude Brochu and Jacques M?nard, general manager at the time Kevin Malone was ordered to release its major stars. Many of the leading players said in retrospect that they were willing to take pay-cuts in order to return in 1995 and compete once again for the World Series. On ESPN, Admin Walker, asked rhetorically, "I was willing to take a cut to keep the team together, but I was never offered a contract. Where did the money go? We may never know." This major overhaul proved to be damaging to the franchise and its temperamental fan base.

 

 

Montreal Expos - Wikipedia

This is Montreal part II.

Our Vlad is Miguel Cabrera and our Pedro Martinez is Dontrelle Willis.

Soon they will be helping other teams make the playoffs while we hope to get a new expansion team from MLB.

Post got erased. To be short...

The Expos' ON field success at the time was not a true reflection of the team's off field success or the market. There were many problems. This romanticized view you purport is one out of Hollywood, and has been used by those upset about the 1994-5 strike for reasons not always directly related to the problems the Expos were dealing with before and after the strike.

This is Montreal part II.

Our Vlad is Miguel Cabrera and our Pedro Martinez is Dontrelle Willis.

Soon they will be helping other teams make the playoffs while we hope to get a new expansion team from MLB.

 

 

So good of you to return spreading more of your poison.

 

I find it interesting that the naysayers and rabblerousers ignore the findings of not one but two courts, who found overwhelming in favor of Loria, or the Toronto Globe and Mail, the New York Times of Canada, who in an in-dept series concluded that to use their words, Loria was made the "fallguy" for the demise of the Expos by the (media) influential owners who in reality were the blame for ruining the franchise.

 

But just keep spreading your hate. You wear it well. I becomes you.