You mean the fact I haven't drank the Kool-Aid like some of you?

 

Here's Berardino's quote "...Bowyer has a big fastball and no second pitch. That's how he posted a 9.39 ERA in the Arizona Fall League. Tyler has a bum knee and projects as a middle reliever at best."

 

He takes Bowyer's worst possible stat, after the kid increased his innings 50% from the year before, ignores his IL AAA numbers (2.78 ERA, 74+ innings, 96 strikeouts), his first five appearances with the Twins where Bowyer put up a 1.04 ERA and a BAA of .192 before his last ill-fated appearance.

 

And if you start looking into Tyler's performance last season there are reasons to believe he'll be a much better pitcher than Berardino let's on. He's out to bury the Fish plain and simple.

 

And Swifty and Prin, it appears so are you.

 

 

Grow up.

 

 

You're spinning the Bowyer thing too, that stat that is such a horrific stat is also his most recent action against professional hitters. That ERA is the result of him trying to refine a pitch? It just speaks to his lack of a second option. Fact of the matter is, he's very very flawed.

 

And last I've checked, I've yet to reduce myself to name-calling.

 

As for Tyler, since you seem to think that Castillo is ready to fall apart (didn't you suggest that he needs a seg-way to simply get around?) because of hip problems at 30...shouldn't Tyler be more concering given his serious knee problems at 20?

Marlins2003,

 

I did notice that Berardino only used the stats that back up his argument. I personally think Bowyer is going to be a monster and don't necessarily think we got raped on this deal. His AZ Fall League stats weren't all that good - but not because he really did suck. From what I've read he used that time to work on his secondary pitches - changeup and slider. I couldn't care less what his stats were - I hope he used the time wisely and comes to spring training to refine his secondary pitches even more. If his changeup and slider both become MLB average he'll be very good given his heater. If he can make one of those pitches above average then I think he can be our closer this coming year.

 

Petit has been dominant in the minor leagues and I really think he can be an outstanding pitcher in the big leagues, a lot like Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine. He was great pickup and he'll be in our long term plans. Hanley Ramirez certainly has the tools we're looking for. Sanchez also has outstanding stuff. Psomas could end up being great. Same thing with Garcia.

 

The problem I've been having with all these trades is that we've only gotten one player that we know for a fact is major league ready - Jacobs. I personally think Jacobs will also become a monster - I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the ROY award and does better than Hermida. I would just like to see how the roster will be filled. I understand we might be going for lesser free agents or get some players through trades. However, it just seems like we're going to go with all young and unproven players. We traded Beckett, Lowell, Delgado, and Louie and have gotten one player that we know for a fact is major league ready. So how are we going to get MLB ready players through trades now? By trading some of the prized prospects we've received in other deals? That's worrisome.

Marlins 2003- While I support your general premise that the Marlins F.O. is doing what they have to and they shouldn't get the majority of the blame for the stadium debacle, I don't think this article is that bad. One thing I've been frustrated about in these trades is the lack of M.L ready or expereinced guys. I know we're looking for cheap labor, but why can't we get a guy who has at least a SEASON in the majors? Expecting these guys with little expereince to play a 162-game schedule, is, IMO, pretty irresponsible.

It's amazing to me how much Castillo meant to this team and everyone around here. Delgado, Lowell, even Beckett; the mood was, "I guess it had to be done." Now, with Luis gone, everyone's out for blood.

 

 

You know, it's so true. I was really OK with rest of the trades. But I find myself much more upset about losing Castillo for a couple of maybe's.

Marlins2003 has become way too condescending for my tastes. I used to respect his opinions even when I disagreed.

 

 

I'm an acquired taste.

 

As Rferry opined, guys ike Berardino, who picks his stats to fit his dialogue of hate, is playing with your heads.

 

There is nothing MB wants to do more than further the chasm between fan and team. To Dan, the prime minister of Marlins loathing in South Florida, this is just another opportunity to pour salt in the wound since he was frozen out of the McKeon hiring/Torborg firing story.

 

 

just because he hates the team and wants to pour salt in the wound doesn't mean he's wrong. I can't believe anyone would argue that the fans don't have the right to be upset at the team right now. yes, they did everything in their power to make this a compettive team over the past 3 years. but come on...that doesn't mean that this is any fun.

 

look - we are taking the shaft right now. it's part of being a small-market team. it's life, and we're gonna make the best of it and hope that the Marlins stay in South Florida forever. But let's not pretend it's something that it's not - it sucks. anyone in their right minds would rather be in the Red Sox shoes right now and have the money to afford to take on Beckett and Lowell at the cost of Ramirez. it sucks to be us right now. we can roll with it, we can keep supporting our guys, but we don't have to like it.

I cant believe there are FO apologists still.

I have a general understanding of the Beckett and Delgado deals, but like most everyone else is saying this Castillo deal burns. We didn't get great value and it leaves us with our most gaping hole. If we had stood pat with what we had after the first two deals a competitive club could have been fielded for 2006 with Pierre/Duca getting dealt around the deadline if no palatable deal presented itself offseason 05. Berardino is exagerrating quite a bit on the other deals. Losing Castillo for those 2 arms burns, though.

Wait, are some of you suggesting that a bad return in a trade is somehow reflective of the front office's true intentions rather than simply a case of a difference of opinion of the players' talent? Or are we well past the point of rational discussion?

I have a general understanding of the Beckett and Delgado deals, but like most everyone else is saying this Castillo deal burns. We didn't get great value and it leaves us with our most gaping hole. If we had stood pat with what we had after the first two deals a competitive club could have been fielded for 2006 with Pierre/Duca getting dealt around the deadline if no palatable deal presented itself offseason 05. Berardino is exagerrating quite a bit on the other deals. Losing Castillo for those 2 arms burns, though.

 

 

I think we could have gotten a better deal, but Bowyer will be lights out. The kid has a nasty heater - 96-99 mph. He's working on his slider. He'll be the real deal soon. No worries. I'll also add that if he can make his slider above average I see him becoming a Brade Lidge type.

 

My problem with many of these trades is we haven't really gotten many MLB ready players. Bowyer and Jacobs are the only ones that have seen action in the big leagues.

Wait, are some of you suggesting that a bad return in a trade is somehow reflective of the front office's true intentions rather than simply a case of a difference of opinion of the players' talent? Or are we well past the point of rational discussion?

 

 

Well, considering there were as many as 5 teams in on this (Red Sox, Mets, Twins, Royals and Cardinals) I think it's safe to say that we could have done better. When the freaking Royals make an offer for a contract that your team has deemed unaffordable, you know that the player has value (and for the record, I think MacDougal is more in return talent than a one pitch reliever and a one kneed starter), .

A lot of you are underestimating Bowyer. He'll be a great addition to the bullpen next year.

A lot of you are underestimating Bowyer. He'll be a great addition to the bullpen next year.

 

 

So wouldn't that be contradicting your point that we didn't receive big league quality talent?

 

Just asking...

A lot of you are underestimating Bowyer. He'll be a great addition to the bullpen next year.

 

 

So wouldn't that be contradicting your point that we didn't receive big league quality talent?

 

Just asking...

 

No, I was saying that we only received one player we knew for a FACT was ready for the big leagues next season - that man being Jacobs. I said nothing of talent. Ramirez, Petit, Sanchez, and Bowyer all have big league talent - but they may or may not be ready for the big leagues next season. Bowyer I think will probably be ready and Petit may be ready as well. We don't know for sure if they'll be ready next season, but they'll make it eventually. I am just of the opinion that Bowyer will make it next season, but I can't be certain.

A lot of you are underestimating Bowyer. He'll be a great addition to the bullpen next year.

 

 

So wouldn't that be contradicting your point that we didn't receive big league quality talent?

 

Just asking...

 

No, I was saying that we only received one player we knew for a FACT was ready for the big leagues next season - that man being Jacobs. I said nothing of talent. Ramirez, Petit, Sanchez, and Bowyer all have big league talent - but they may or may not be ready for the big leagues next season. Bowyer I think will probably be ready and Petit may be ready as well. We don't know for sure if they'll be ready next season, but they'll make it eventually. I am just of the opinion that Bowyer will make it next season, but I can't be certain.

 

Well, you can't usually get big league quality talent for cheap, so it's usually one or the other...guess which direction we're going in.

I can't guarantee that Bowyer will be lights out next year, or ever.

 

But at the same time, I don't know if Beckett will miss six weeks with blisters, if Mike Lowell will hit .230 again, if Delgado will crash in the big Apple or Castillo's hip will end his season in May.

 

No one knows. Not me. Not any of you.

 

What's happened is our guys are gone and we've put them up on pedestals like they're gods. They aren't gods, they are ballplayers. Ballplayers get traded every day. Unfortunately, in the case of the Marlins they ARE being traded everyday.

 

Everyone seems to want to paint me as an apologist. If it helps you to get through this to tar and feather me, I'm tough, I'll survive. I survived a 2-28 CYO baseball season in my youth. You learn alot when you go through something like that. You want to feel pain? I suggest you try spending a summer actually losing every game every night.

 

After that, everything was a piece of cake.

 

Next season is going to be ugly, I know that. But it's not the end of the world and I'll still going to fifty games next season regardless.

Wait, are some of you suggesting that a bad return in a trade is somehow reflective of the front office's true intentions rather than simply a case of a difference of opinion of the players' talent? Or are we well past the point of rational discussion?

 

 

Well, considering there were as many as 5 teams in on this (Red Sox, Mets, Twins, Royals and Cardinals) I think it's safe to say that we could have done better. When the freaking Royals make an offer for a contract that your team has deemed unaffordable, you know that the player has value (and for the record, I think MacDougal is more in return talent than a one pitch reliever and a one kneed starter), .

You missed the point. I'm not happy about the return. However I don't see why you'd jump to the conclusion of the front office having evil intentions, because you disagree with the return of the trade. Maybe Beinfest thought this was the best deal and that it wasn't going to be available for long. Were the Marlins trying to ruin their team when they did not munipulate the market when they deemed Brad Penny was expendable? No. They thought they had a good deal and took it. That just as easily could have been the case here.

Wait, are some of you suggesting that a bad return in a trade is somehow reflective of the front office's true intentions rather than simply a case of a difference of opinion of the players' talent? Or are we well past the point of rational discussion?

 

 

Well, considering there were as many as 5 teams in on this (Red Sox, Mets, Twins, Royals and Cardinals) I think it's safe to say that we could have done better. When the freaking Royals make an offer for a contract that your team has deemed unaffordable, you know that the player has value (and for the record, I think MacDougal is more in return talent than a one pitch reliever and a one kneed starter), .

You missed the point. I'm not happy about the return. However I don't see why you'd jump to the conclusion of the front office having evil intentions, because you disagree with the return of the trade. Maybe Beinfest thought this was the best deal and that it wasn't going to be available for long. Were the Marlins trying to ruin their team when they did not munipulate the market when they deemed Brad Penny was expendable? No. They thought they had a good deal and took it. That just as easily could have been the case here.

 

The "evil intentions" part of the argument came from (at least for me) the recognition that dealing Castillo was a real kick in the teeth to the one player who has shown a committment to the organization, but even more than that, that management is hellbent on absolutely gutting the team.

 

Before Castillo was traded, I know that I (and I'm sure some others did) thought that we were done making a major overhaul. We'd shaved our projectable opening-day payroll to about $30-$40 million, and if another move needed to be made, it would be Pierre going, but we'd at least have veterans to aid in the rebuilding. Now Castillo's gone, LoDuca and JP are probably going to be gone by this time next week (only a matter of when, not if), and the FO has completely stomach punched the fans in doing this. Minor roll-back, OK, I guess it had to be done...trading Delgado and Beckett, fine, I guess we can set our sights on .500...complete and total gutting when equal value is not brought back in return, unacceptable.

You mean the fact I haven't drank the Kool-Aid like some of you?

 

Here's Berardino's quote "...Bowyer has a big fastball and no second pitch. That's how he posted a 9.39 ERA in the Arizona Fall League. Tyler has a bum knee and projects as a middle reliever at best."

 

He takes Bowyer's worst possible stat, after the kid increased his innings 50% from the year before, ignores his IL AAA numbers (2.78 ERA, 74+ innings, 96 strikeouts), his first five appearances with the Twins where Bowyer put up a 1.04 ERA and a BAA of .192 before his last ill-fated appearance.

 

And if you start looking into Tyler's performance last season there are reasons to believe he'll be a much better pitcher than Berardino let's on. He's out to bury the Fish plain and simple.

 

And Swifty and Prin, it appears so are you.

 

 

 

 

Grow up.

 

 

 

 

agree

Wait, are some of you suggesting that a bad return in a trade is somehow reflective of the front office's true intentions rather than simply a case of a difference of opinion of the players' talent? Or are we well past the point of rational discussion?

 

 

Well, considering there were as many as 5 teams in on this (Red Sox, Mets, Twins, Royals and Cardinals) I think it's safe to say that we could have done better. When the freaking Royals make an offer for a contract that your team has deemed unaffordable, you know that the player has value (and for the record, I think MacDougal is more in return talent than a one pitch reliever and a one kneed starter), .

You missed the point. I'm not happy about the return. However I don't see why you'd jump to the conclusion of the front office having evil intentions, because you disagree with the return of the trade. Maybe Beinfest thought this was the best deal and that it wasn't going to be available for long. Were the Marlins trying to ruin their team when they did not munipulate the market when they deemed Brad Penny was expendable? No. They thought they had a good deal and took it. That just as easily could have been the case here.

 

The "evil intentions" part of the argument came from (at least for me) the recognition that dealing Castillo was a real kick in the teeth to the one player who has shown a committment to the organization, but even more than that, that management is hellbent on absolutely gutting the team.

 

Before Castillo was traded, I know that I (and I'm sure some others did) thought that we were done making a major overhaul. We'd shaved our projectable opening-day payroll to about $30-$40 million, and if another move needed to be made, it would be Pierre going, but we'd at least have veterans to aid in the rebuilding. Now Castillo's gone, LoDuca and JP are probably going to be gone by this time next week (only a matter of when, not if), and the FO has completely stomach punched the fans in doing this. Minor roll-back, OK, I guess it had to be done...trading Delgado and Beckett, fine, I guess we can set our sights on .500...complete and total gutting when equal value is not brought back in return, unacceptable.

 

Excuse me, but what's the point of being a crappy, mediocre team at .500? To support the handful of die-hards fans who've stuck it out? If your goal is to build another championship team, once you start disassembling the team, you might as well hit the "reset" button, and start from scratch with the best potential talent.

start from scratch with the best potential talent.

 

 

Are they really doing that? Figuring what we got for Castillo and what we expect to get for Pierre?

 

PS:

 

I thought I made it clear in my post that the Delgado and Beckett trades were OK in the context of rebuilding, from here on in, it appears we're more preoccupied with clearing payroll than getting the best value back.

Excuse me, but what's the point of being a crappy, mediocre team at .500? To support the handful of die-hards fans who've stuck it out? If your goal is to build another championship team, once you start disassembling the team, you might as well hit the "reset" button, and start from scratch with the best potential talent.

 

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe to show the fans that you care about them a little bit. I mean, throw us a bone at this point. Not to mention that it looks like these kids will have zero veteran leadership on the field next year. At this point, it looks like Cabrera will be the "veteran leader" of the squad. Now, don't get me wrong, Cabrera is a great player and I am a big fan of his. But all indications are that he is still immature, acting like a prima dona at times and generally not the player you want to be set up as an example for the rest of the team.

Excuse me, but what's the point of being a crappy, mediocre team at .500? To support the handful of die-hards fans who've stuck it out? If your goal is to build another championship team, once you start disassembling the team, you might as well hit the "reset" button, and start from scratch with the best potential talent.

 

 

Oh, I don't know, maybe to show the fans that you care about them a little bit. I mean, throw us a bone at this point. Not to mention that it looks like these kids will have zero veteran leadership on the field next year. At this point, it looks like Cabrera will be the "veteran leader" of the squad. Now, don't get me wrong, Cabrera is a great player and I am a big fan of his. But all indications are that he is still immature, acting like a prima dona at times and generally not the player you want to be set up as an example for the rest of the team.

 

show the fans

 

what fans? you and me and everyone on this board? Maybe if the rest of the bandwagoning, fairweather doofuses down in South Florida had gone to a freaking game every once in a blue moon, the real fans wouldn't have to go through this hell.

I've never been a fan of Berardino and I know he's had issues with the Marlins' FO that go way back. However, the fact he has an ax to grind doesn't negate all the truth in this article.

 

This did go from rebuilding to firesale very quickly and Samson's ridiculous little play on words isn't cutting it. To say that anyone "drank the Kool-Aid" is ridiculous. It is possible to fully support the team and not agree with everything the FO does. In fact, who drank who's Kool-Aid is up for interpretation.

 

So far, we do not have a major league ready team and that is not rebuilding -- it's a minor league team.

I don't think when it really comes down to it that this has anything to do with what kind of players we're getting in return for the deals we've made. That's a seperate issue. These are high-calibur players being dealt for prospects, any way you look at it. Even if they're good prospects, most fans aren't crazy about the fact that we're going through a fire sale again, and in that aspect Berardino is correct. If this isn't a fire sale then I don't know what is.

 

Yes the FO has money problems here. That being the case, why were they spending over their means when they have no stadium deal in place? What was Loria doing signing Delgado and Leiter to massive deals when a salary purge like this was inevitable? Yes it's nice that he wanted to make a run at the playoffs last season, but so what if they HAD made the playoffs & lost? The very same situation would be playing itself out now. Samson's said they could've drawn 4 million fans last year & they'd be in the same spot. I can't imagine that the FO had that much faith that a stadium deal was in the bag to go out & overspend.

 

Not sure where I'm going with that, but it seems like they could've made one or two fewer moves last year and saved themselves the trouble of one giant fire sale..

 

I am not negative, and I'll go to just as many games as I typically do next season. I loved watching the '98 team after that fire sale, and I'll love watching the '06 team. I have no problem with a team rebuilding with kids. But this was handled terribly.