March 12, 200620 yr Dade County has been the head at the table throughout this. The Marlins and the City of Miami are the big babies in this negotiation. The City of Hialeah is currently at the table and the team is getting impatient because the city is doing studies on the site near I-75.
March 12, 200620 yr My point is after ready the below, San Antonio can, and will support the Marlins. Both SA/Austin will market the team within both MSA's, as did Miami/FTL. SA/Austin combine is approx. 19th market. But, as some mention above, it's not about size, but cost. Let me size a few things in perspective: 1. Land is less costly in SA. (depending on the site/the county does own the land on 1 of 3 sites being proposed) 2. SA can build a Stadium lot cheaper than Miami/however, your City Mgr came out and said that the 300 million would not be enough. Well without a roof, and the cost of living in SA being less, perphaps he should think twice. 3. keep in mind if Miami's politicians don't thing SA is a thread, then they have nothing to worry about. yeah right, we'll see how soon they powwow. I lived in Palm Beach Gardens for 10 yrs, and went to a few Marlins game. However, it was too far of a drive. To include those areas more then a 45 minute drive, would be re-definding market size. By using the areas listed above Miami/Ft. Priece, we should then include the Rio Grande Valley, placing SA/Austin/Rio Grande Valley at 5.2 Million folks. But it's not how it works. Anyway, I do hope you're politicains do step up to the table. But, to think that SA is not a thread. :banghead Joe, Thanks for your note. I'm not printing stats that favor South Florida - I printed the SA number that the city was quoting back in December when the Marlins visited. Quite frankly, South Florida does not appear all that concerned about San Antonio's proposal. :o There's really not a whole lot of leverage to be had down here these days. :headscratch I guess we'll have to see what happens. Thanks again. Best, Sarah Sarah Talalay Sports-Business Writer South Florida Sun-Sentinel 200 E. Las Olas Blvd. Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301 tel: 954-356-4173 / fax: 954-356-4566 / cell: 305-439-4546 email: stalalay@sun-sentinel.com -----Original Message----- From: Joe R. Estrada Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:52 PM To: Talalay, Sarah Subject: San Antonio offers $200M Importance: High I understand printing stats that favor the Boward/Dade County. But, here are some 2005 stats: San Antonio 1.2 Million Bexar County 1.6 Million San Antonio MSA 1.9 Million Austin .8 Million Travis County 1.0 Million Austin MSA 1.2 Million Total SA/Austin MSA 3.1 Million :thumbup It's Interesting how Austin 65 miles north of San Antonio, or a 45 minute drive is not included in the mix. But, MSA like Miami/FTL are included in the market mix, which is about same distance as SA/Austin. Granted, Miami/FTL is still larger, but 3.1 Million seem more attractive then the 1.2 Million. In the event the Marlins do move, South Florida fans are going to ask themselves, how could the Marlin leave for only a market with 1.2MM. Then the media will step up and said oh yeah, we forgot the other 1.9MM folks within a 45 minute drive. But, my gut feeling is San Antonio is being use as leverage, regardless of what one may hear. Don't get me wrong if the Marlins do move to San Antonio, Personally will buy season tickets. However, there is a poll question being ask now on KSAT.COM , how would you vote for a new Stadium, 37M+ have taken the poll 52% in favor, 42% no, the remainder undecided. Regards, Joe R. Estrada San Antonio Resident
March 12, 200620 yr I don't see how not saying anything is not taking something seriously. Arriola will knock down every proposal, but the key players in Miami-Dade and Hialeah government have yet to respond to SA's proposal. Cape is right, the county is doing extensive studies because of the importance of the site and possible traffic problems that could occur on I-75 which is a vital route used by the many Broward residents that work in Miami-Dade County.
March 12, 200620 yr Dade County has been the head at the table throughout this. The Marlins and the City of Miami are the big babies in this negotiation. The City of Hialeah is currently at the table and the team is getting impatient because the city is doing studies on the site near I-75. The team isn't exploring other options because they're getting impatient, it's that they don't know if the city (or any municipality other than Dade in South Florida) will be able to do anything. They need all the information to arrive at the right plan to solve their problem. And it doesn't hurt to have some leverage. Cape, you're seriously beginning to be a bit too biased to be a trusted resource on stadium issues. Save the Marlins, Keep them in Florida... I'm down with all that, but let's not confuse the two with the stadium. Spreading propaganda may make you and your readers feel all warm inside, but it is in no way it will be beneficial to your goals. You know as well as I that the Marlins and MLB care about other things more than simply keeping the Marlins in Florida, and that aren't in position of bending. What you're doing is just preventing your audience from contributing to the other more important efforts you're involved in. Such as contacting their local politicians, the Marlins, MLB, the media and getting their family and friends involved. So what is it, Cape, do you want to make to people feel good or do you want encourage them to help?
March 12, 200620 yr Dade County has been the head at the table throughout this. The Marlins and the City of Miami are the big babies in this negotiation. The City of Hialeah is currently at the table and the team is getting impatient because the city is doing studies on the site near I-75. The team isn't exploring other options because they're getting impatient, it's that they don't know if the city (or any municipality other than Dade in South Florida) will be able to do anything. They need all the information to arrive at the right plan to solve their problem. And it doesn't hurt to have some leverage. Cape, you're seriously beginning to be a bit too biased to be a trusted resource on stadium issues. Save the Marlins, Keep them in Florida... I'm down with all that, but let's not confuse the two with the stadium. Spreading propaganda may make you and your readers feel all warm inside, but it is in no way it will be beneficial to your goals. You know as well as I that the Marlins and MLB care about other things more than simply keeping the Marlins in Florida, and that aren't in position of bending. What you're doing is just preventing your audience from contributing to the other more important efforts you're involved in. Such as contacting their local politicians, the Marlins, MLB, the media and getting their family and friends involved. So what is it, Cape, do you want to make to people feel good or do you want encourage them to help? http://capefish.blogspot.com/ Point out our propaganda. There is none. We just post articles from other sources on what's going on. As far as the second part of your post, I will just say that we're working on organizing our information to properly present the material to our readers.
March 12, 200620 yr The team isn't exploring other options because they're getting impatient, it's that they don't know if the city (or any municipality other than Dade in South Florida) will be able to do anything. They need all the information to arrive at the right plan to solve their problem. And it doesn't hurt to have some leverage. Cape, you're seriously beginning to be a bit too biased to be a trusted resource on stadium issues. Save the Marlins, Keep them in Florida... I'm down with all that, but let's not confuse the two with the stadium. Spreading propaganda may make you and your readers feel all warm inside, but it is in no way it will be beneficial to your goals. You know as well as I that the Marlins and MLB care about other things more than simply keeping the Marlins in Florida, and that aren't in position of bending. What you're doing is just preventing your audience from contributing to the other more important efforts you're involved in. Such as contacting their local politicians, the Marlins, MLB, the media and getting their family and friends involved. So what is it, Cape, do you want to make to people feel good or do you want encourage them to help? You need leverage to expedite your side in negotiations. Ricky, how about you examine the reporting we do. You will see that it is factual and more yet we have been up-front with everyone on examining markets the Marlins could move to. We reported Las Vegas as not being compatible with MLB long before MLB officially said so. We also have said that if the Marlins choose to relocate, it will have to be after a long research process MLB requires. Now, if you want to call the work Festa and I do propaganda, then you have no idea of the word's meaning. We have no doctrine that we seek to further in our work. We have no agenda towards or against any party. The fact is that as of right now there is nothing stopping a deal in South Florida other than funding. San Antonio not only has the funding issue, but also the issue of long-term market viability. These are MLB points and we consider them valid. If the Marlins cannot make a deal to stay in South Florida, then they should move. Sending a reporter to South Florida and then returning to San Antonio with a headline of "Floridians not Scared by San Antonio Marlins Proposal" is more likely to be propaganda than anything we have done in our reporting. Now raise a real issue or shut up, because you make accusations and then put no substance to back them up. Give me one example on the Marlins Ballpark News were we have been spewing propaganda?
March 12, 200620 yr It's Interesting how Austin 65 miles north of San Antonio, or a 45 minute drive is not included in the mix. But, MSA like Miami/FTL are included in the market mix, which is about same distance as SA/Austin. Granted, Miami/FTL is still larger, but 3.1 Million seem more attractive then the 1.2 Million. :banghead The stadium, for all intents and purposes, is in Broward county. Miami/FTL is one urban area. No offense, but anyone who lives here can tell you that separating the two would be absurd. They are not 80 miles apart. :lol :lol :lol Austin, on the other hand, is 80 miles from San Antonio (link). Combining it with San Antonio would almost be like combining Miami/FTL with Jupiter.
March 12, 200620 yr Miami-Fort Lauderdale is one market. There are 2 counties and Miami is the seat of Dade County and Fort Lauderdale is the seat of Broward County. Palm Beach County starts a new and seperate market that stretches until Indian River County in the north. Brevard County the starts the Orlando market. Now here is Texas:
March 12, 200620 yr Festa & Cape, I wasn't talking necessarily about the blog. What you do is great, but it's when you skip over pertinent information and distort something to a paint the picture you wants to see rather than what is is disturbing. That's still something worthy reading and taking into consideration. However, it is in drastic contrast to the reputation you made for yourself these past few years before being compromised by the fear of possibly losing your team. Everything is not going to have a happy ending. There's going to be bumps in the road. To ignore this when it comes to offers from South Florida and to make assumptions on nothing from offers from other cities. Or dismiss other cities for problems which South Florida offers no more protection from. It's very hard to trust that you're telling the full story against the other things I've read and are reading. And I don't see where telling us everything is going to be okay, the Marlins have nowhere to turn, MLB's coming to help, this or that city is pushing a bill through and so on helps with your other efforts which might have a greater chance of having an impact.
March 12, 200620 yr Festa & Cape, I wasn't talking necessarily about the blog. What you do is great, but it's when you skip over pertinent information and distort something to a paint the picture you wants to see rather than what is is disturbing. That's still something worthy reading and taking into consideration. However, it is in drastic contrast to the reputation you made for yourself these past few years before being compromised by the fear of possibly losing your team. Everything is not going to have a happy ending. There's going to be bumps in the road. To ignore this when it comes to offers from South Florida and to make assumptions on nothing from offers from other cities. Or dismiss other cities for problems which South Florida offers no more protection from. It's very hard to trust that you're telling the full story against the other things I've read and are reading. And I don't see where telling us everything is going to be okay, the Marlins have nowhere to turn, MLB's coming to help, this or that city is pushing a bill through and so on helps with your other efforts which might have a greater chance of having an impact. I think you may be seeing something that isn't there. Festa and I tackle the tough issues. Right now, we are not going to start pointing out where things went wrong when the process isn't done. If the process completes itself sucessfully or unsucessfully, either way, we will analyze where things went wrong. You can't damn an unfinished book, same goes here. The difference is you see this as a shut book on Baseball in South Florida, while most see this as the continuing troubles we have seen this team have.
March 12, 200620 yr We can certainly raise questions to an author's credibility and sincerity to report facts.
March 12, 200620 yr We can certainly raise questions to an author's credibility and sincerity to report facts. I think our news gathering ability is credible and we are very sincere in our commitment to report facts. I don't think that we have seen enough detail from San Antonio to consider them an MLB viable market according to MLB. Now, if MLB decides that San Antonio is viable, then we will certainly report that. Right now we carry the stance that MLB is investigating the viability of San Antonio, but we do not believe they will find favorable results. We have put that stance out and it is up to you whether or not you think San Antonio is MLB viable. We provided facts on TV markets, population, and income comparing San Antonio to other MLB and non-MLB markets including Miami. If the numbers do not back San Antonio up, then are we too blame for San Antonio's shortcomings?
March 12, 200620 yr I think our news gathering ability is credible and we are very sincere in our commitment to report facts. I don't think that we have seen enough detail from San Antonio to consider them an MLB viable market according to MLB. Now, if MLB decides that San Antonio is viable, then we will certainly report that. Right now we carry the stance that MLB is investigating the viability of San Antonio, but we do not believe they will find favorable results. We have put that stance out and it is up to you whether or not you think San Antonio is MLB viable. We provided facts on TV markets, population, and income comparing San Antonio to other MLB and non-MLB markets including Miami. If the numbers do not back San Antonio up, then are we too blame for San Antonio's shortcomings? Link Please I don't think that we have seen enough detail from San Antonio to consider them an MLB viable market according to MLB.
March 12, 200620 yr Yet somehow you saw enough to draw that San Antonio's offer was terrible and that without any record that they were requesting the full $100M contribution up front?
March 12, 200620 yr Link Please I don't think that we have seen enough detail from San Antonio to consider them an MLB viable market according to MLB. Asked if he had concerns about San Antonio, post: 688151"] Wolff said his proposal mirrors the plan the county used to build the AT&T Center for the Spurs"] http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories...s.1d1b9942.html Wolff intends to use the similar plan. After the stadium referendum was passed"] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBC_Center But in the previous use of the plan, the Spurs were able to secure financing and then were able to pay their share by selling the naming rights. The Spurs then had to pay $2.5M as their share for the arena. The AT&T Center opened in 2002 at a cost of $189 million. Voters in 1999 approved increases in the hotel-occupancy and car-rental taxes to finance the county's $146.5 million share. The Spurs provided the rest of the funding, including $41 million from the arena's naming rights. http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories...s.1d1b9942.html The difference between the at&t Center and this ballpark is that the private financing would have to be increased. Also, naming rights won't cover almost the entire team cost, so the team is going to have to prove they have the income to pay off the debt service. Dade County was offering to provide the financing for the Marlins by having the Marlins pay for it with annual rent payments. Right now, San Antonio is telling the Marlins to get a private loan.
March 12, 200620 yr Actually San Antonio is saying nothing and it is wrong to make such an assumption when they are looking to accept the much of the same if not all that was being negotiated between Dade, Miami and the Marlins. I'm sure you remember that the bulk of the Marlins' contribution was naming rights. Such an assumption leads a person to think the San Antonio deal is bad, when in fact is on par if not better with the most extensive negotiations the current Marlins owners have had with South Florida. Additionally the old Cape might have considered the circumstances of the situation and give us some foresight of what to look forward. In this case, you told it was a terrible deal and dead on delivery. However, it stands to reason that while San Antonio may want a similiar deal, they know just as you and I do that MLB and a relocating team have far more leverage than the NBA and a team just threatening to leave. That the SBC Center is a base for negotiations, not a model.
March 12, 200620 yr Actually San Antonio is saying nothing and it is wrong to make such an assumption when they are looking to accept the much of the same if not all that was being negotiated between Dade, Miami and the Marlins. I'm sure you remember that the bulk of the Marlins' contribution was naming rights. Such an assumption leads a person to think the San Antonio deal is bad, when in fact is on par if not better with the most extensive negotiations the current Marlins owners have had with South Florida. Additionally the old Cape might have considered the circumstances of the situation and give us some foresight of what to look forward. In this case, you told it was a terrible deal and dead on delivery. However, it stands to reason that while San Antonio may want a similiar deal, they know just as you and I do that MLB and a relocating team have far more leverage than the NBA and a team just threatening to leave. That the SBC Center is a base for negotiations, not a model. The bulk of the Marlins' contribution in South Florida was rent payments. The team retained naming rights to the facility, but rent had to be paid whether or not the rights were sold. The San Antonio deal contains a $100M+land gap as of right now. How is that better than what the Marlins currently have on the table? South Florida's plan still allows the Marlins the option of increasing annual rent payments to cover the gap. San Antonio has not offered any such plan or incentive. So this offer from San Antonio is effectively dead-on-delivery unless Loria decides to sell or wins the lottery. But if Loria did either of those things, then the Marlins state they would not leave South Florida as it is their preferred location. You have to await the finalizing of studies done by Dade County and the City of Hialeah before the Marlins get a hard offer for the Hialeah I-75 site. An offer cannot be tuned until all the variables are studied. Right now Dade County is putting a $50M reserve on all plans until studies are complete. That means Dade County has inflated costs by $50M in-case. Once studies are done and the numbers are crunched, the price gap in South Florida may close to a number below $100M or even $50M. The at&t Center is San Antonio's model for financing. I don't know of any other structure they have proposed publicly in Bexar County.
March 13, 200620 yr Now you're making things up. The Marlins' contribution was rent payments because they may not have been able to sell naming rights? That's like saying I'm going to have to pay in cash because I may not be able to get credit. It's the same damn thing. You honestly think the Marlins, upon their negotiation with South Florida and upcoming ones with San Antonio, are thinking they may not be able to sell naming rights. What you're saying is essentially because it doesn't exist in the present, it is not accounted for. There's a $100M gap in San Antonio? You mean the $100M the Marlins are to be responsible for? By that logic, there's over $200M in the latest proposal with South Florida. And the land situation is much worse in South Florida. San Antonio owns one of the parcels. And land is cheaper in Texas than in South Florida, even in Hialeah or next to Huizenga's parking lot. And you don't think San Antonio might be willing to extend the lease that keeps the team in the city and at the stadium in exchange of rental fee negotiated now instead of thirty years down the road when the stadium is old and outdated in some aspects? I know that's a really really crazy suggestion, but I think they might just be willing to agree to that should the Marlins enter negotiations with them. And this isn't the one and only financing plan. There will be adaptations in the future. This is a base for negotiations. You know this. Don't worry, Cape. I'm sure the Marlins aren't leaving any time soon. I hope they don't at all ever. There will be plenty of time for Hialeah to get prepared. And plenty of time for San Antonio too. And other cities as well. BUt your attempt to dismiss one offer to the benefit of another is very telling of where you stand and what you're all about.
March 13, 200620 yr San Antonio owns one of the parcels. Hialeah also owns one of the parcels in Hialeah Heights.
March 13, 200620 yr Now you're making things up. The Marlins' contribution was rent payments because they may not have been able to sell naming rights? That's like saying I'm going to have to pay in cash because I may not be able to get credit. It's the same damn thing. You honestly think the Marlins, upon their negotiation with South Florida and upcoming ones with San Antonio, are thinking they may not be able to sell naming rights. What you're saying is essentially because it doesn't exist in the present, it is not accounted for. There's a $100M gap in San Antonio? You mean the $100M the Marlins are to be responsible for? By that logic, there's over $200M in the latest proposal with South Florida. And the land situation is much worse in South Florida. San Antonio owns one of the parcels. And land is cheaper in Texas than in South Florida, even in Hialeah or next to Huizenga's parking lot. And you don't think San Antonio might be willing to extend the lease that keeps the team in the city and at the stadium in exchange of rental fee negotiated now instead of thirty years down the road when the stadium is old and outdated in some aspects? I know that's a really really crazy suggestion, but I think they might just be willing to agree to that should the Marlins enter negotiations with them. And this isn't the one and only financing plan. There will be adaptations in the future. This is a base for negotiations. You know this. Don't worry, Cape. I'm sure the Marlins aren't leaving any time soon. I hope they don't at all ever. There will be plenty of time for Hialeah to get prepared. And plenty of time for San Antonio too. And other cities as well. BUt your attempt to dismiss one offer to the benefit of another is very telling of where you stand and what you're all about. Right now, San Antonio's answer to the Marlins $100M gap is do it yourself. In South Florida, Dade County would issue bonds and the Marlins would repay them, similarly to the way the Dolphins currently have it at DS. In effect, the County would extend the Marlins credit. That is why Dade County was asking for the Marlins to get their TV deal extended (done) and why the City of Miami was asking for MLB to give some guarantee.
March 13, 200620 yr Here's the piece of land the city of Hialeah bought in HH for $22M. http://gisims2.miamidade.gov/myhome/propma...Dis=&Mkt=&HexV= http://egvsys.miamidade.gov:1608/wwwserv/g...o=0420200010150
March 13, 200620 yr GO CAPE GO CAPE GO...you are the man and you report things and back it up with where you found the information...i find its pretty hard to argue with the facts...but go figure...there will always be people stubborn enough to look truth in the face and say you're lying
March 13, 200620 yr San Antonio owns one of the parcels. Hialeah also owns one of the parcels in Hialeah Heights. I know. Both San Antonio and Hialeah in the same leg, but when it comes to buying additional parcels or parcels at another site, San Antonio has a clear advantage. However for some reason people care to argue that indisputable fact. Right now, San Antonio's answer to the Marlins $100M gap is do it yourself. In South Florida, Dade County would issue bonds and the Marlins would repay them, similarly to the way the Dolphins currently have it at DS. In effect, the County would extend the Marlins credit. That is why Dade County was asking for the Marlins to get their TV deal extended (done) and why the City of Miami was asking for MLB to give some guarantee. YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVEN THIS. You did not prove it when you came to this conclusion minutes after the proposal was made. You did not prove it in any of your posts then or today when questioned. At absolutly no point has San Antonio said they need the $100M up front. That you are relying on this to prove its a bad deal is illogical. Additionally this was an opening offer to be be negotiated. To ignore that and what it means to it might mean to its final terms is quite unprofessional. Why are you making it a point to smash holes in San Antonio's proposal and overlook that in Miami or Hialeah's?
March 13, 200620 yr The Marlins will have to secure financing for their $100M share. That is why he says public & private financing in the article. I deal with facts. San Antonio may not provide another offer, they might, but right now the current offer is dead in the water unless San Antonio makes some big changes.
March 13, 200620 yr And the same situation exists in South Florida. The Marlins will have to secure over $100M (I believe $130M was the last figure) for a park in South Florida. What is your point? Where is your proof that San Antonio is requiring it be upfront? Where is your proof the Marlins have any better luck fulfilling their requirements in South Florida than in San Antonio? Why are you making it a point to smash holes in San Antonio's proposal and overlook that in Miami or Hialeah's? You deal with facts? Well, I know a little something about facts too. Often they give you a better view of the present and some foresight on the future. That's why we study history, son.
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