I think we have come to an agreement here. The Jewish leaders had a role in Jesus' death, although they did not physically kill him, they did conspire with the Roman authorities to have him "silenced". The Romans did all the punishment, the injuries and insults and finaly they are the ones that crucified him.

 

We cannot blame an entire race or group of people for the actions of a few. Besides, the vast majority of Jesus' followers were Jewish as well. Remember there was no such thing as "Christians" before Jesus' death. Therefore, if you are to blame the entire group of Jewish people that lived back then and today, you might as well blame yourself too. We are the descendents of all of them.

I don't believe in fully going around blaming Jews for Christ's death. But in the context of this movie, they played a significant role, and it has to be shown. History cannot denied. Thats all I have to say on the matter.

Yeah and Christians are innocent of all sin.....

 

 

 

See the Middle Ages.

They aren't, but that is a topic for a different conversation.

well yes i know that.

I think we have come to an agreement here. The Jewish leaders had a role in Jesus' death, although they did not physically kill him, they did conspire with the Roman authorities to have him "silenced". The Romans did all the punishment, the injuries and insults and finaly they are the ones that crucified him.

 

We cannot blame an entire race or group of people for the actions of a few. Besides, the vast majority of Jesus' followers were Jewish as well. Remember there was no such thing as "Christians" before Jesus' death. Therefore, if you are to blame the entire group of Jewish people that lived back then and today, you might as well blame yourself too. We are the descendents of all of them.

I mostly agree with that but there's 2 problems:

1. There were roman politicians involved as well

2. If the whole movie is based on the gospel's interpretation of history of the old testament, its going to be distorted. How true can it possibly be? Will the role of certain people be played up to great and others not represented?

 

If you guys read the links I provided, you would see where I am coming from.

 

However, yes I'm sure Jesus had jewish political enemies that conspired to get him arrested. Remember, jesus was a scary religous radical, that definitely upsets the status quo. The amount of "Blame" that could be placed on rome is unknown, because christiainity's new testament is all we really have to go on, and for the purposes of spreading the religion, it does not accurately show to what amount certain romans directly were responsible.

 

The viewer should just know that this is a reflection of the new testament- they don't have to believe the new testament is true. I, a believer of free press, see no problem with the movie. One should just know that it cannot be 100% true/factual.

Furthermore, some Jewish scholars have agreed that in fact the Jewish leaders did have a role in Jesus' death. This is an excerpt of the same article I linked earlier:

 

What's more, one of the only non-biblical discussions of Jesus' life, from the Jewish historian Josephus, also indicates that at least some important Jewish authorities wanted Jesus convicted. In 'Jewish Antiquities', he writes that Pilate condemned Jesus "upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us."

 

Nevertheless, in the name of objectivity, I think we need to take into account that the Gospels might have been inaccurate:

 

In arguing that the biblical accounts shouldn't be taken as history, liberal scholar John Dominic Crossan focuses on details found in Luke, Matthew, and John that are not found in the source document, Mark.

 

"Watch what happens to that Markan source as the story progresses through the later Gospels. Matthew 27:15-26 first copies Mark's 'the crowd' but then enlarges it to 'the crowds' and finally to 'all the people.' Luke 23:13-15 changes Mark to 'the chief priests, the leaders, and the people.' Finally, John 18:37-40 speaks simply of 'the Jews.' Recall, of course, that those expansions do not represent independent knowledge but dependent development. 'The crowd,' in other words, grows exponentially before our eyes."

 

The Jewish leaders of the time may not have had entirely clean hands, but, at least in terms of historical accuracy, neither did the writers of the Gospels

 

Yes, they might have exagerated the number of people involved at the time, but the main fact that Jewish authorities were involved still remains.

Someone had to kill jesus and it wasn't entirely rome...so yes, I totally agree.

Now, "The Passion" is just another movie. It seems to me that the Jewish scholars are making more of it than they should. If you are christian, you have probably seen this story a million times and played by a thousand different actors, so this movie is just one more for the pack.

 

It is the same story, only that it is done with all the hollywood technology and star power. I can understand that the Jewish scholars are aprehensive about it, but to say that the movie is anti-semitic is just too much. Maybe there will be some people that will use this turmoil to cause more trouble, but I really do not think the story told in the movie actually incites anyone to do harm onto others.

 

If anything happens, it would not be because of the movie, but because of all the bad publicity and adversity it has met and the emotions the Jewish are stirring up. I bet that if they would have stayed away from making public comments on it, we would not be even talking about it and Mel's movie would have gone unnoticed by those who are not christian.

 

I am pretty sure that this is not the kind of publicity Mel Gibson wanted for this movie, much less for it to be compared with Nazi propaganda. I think his sole purpose for doing this movie was to express his deep relationship with God and to reach out to those who have forgotten the meaning of that word "Christian".

Two reasons why they made a big fuss:

 

A) Hollywood is a vast Jewish Majority

B) Mel Gibson, a first rate actor and Christian, is in the movie

Jesus does not exist

based on what evidence?

 

 

from what i recall reading, there is evidence that a man fitting the descrption of Jesus did in fact exist and was crucified by the Romans.

Jesus does not exist

You have to be joking.

 

Its ok guys, the Messiah is Barry Bonds.

Jesus does not exist

You have to be joking.

 

Its ok guys, the Messiah is Barry Bonds. *ignores giants comment*

 

Anyway. Yes, Juanky you are right. Those are two main reasons for that. However, we have to admit that there are crazy people out there that will in fact do stupid things in the name of Jesus and God. I just do not think that they will be incited by the actual story told in the movie. If those anti-semitic people do anything it would be in part to respond to the bashing of Jewish scholars on the movie. It would have been best to play low, but the damage is already done and now is "hard core" Jewish against "hard core" catholics....

Two reasons why they made a big fuss:

 

A) Hollywood is a vast Jewish Majority

B) Mel Gibson, a first rate actor and Christian, is in the movie

A)

http://www.fair.org/extra/9609/jewsownthenews.html

 

There isn't a jewish MAJORITY, that's a lie.Yes, there are a lot of Jews is many high up positions outside of politics, but that's because they get educated at much higher levels and they take professional jobs.

 

B) Gibson's father is a holocaust doubter (at least I heard that, thus people think that) so that will make some people wonder if there's anti-semitism :mischief2

Jesus does not exist

I agree, he has been dead for quite a while now. Did he exist? Probably, however to what extent is what's said about him real? That's a amtter of how much faith one has in biblical accounts.

Like I said. There are people who are anti-semitic. I do not know if Mel's dad was (or is?) but Why is that an issue? If his father was anti-semitic like some say; what does that have to do with Mel? If my father is an a**hole, would that make me one too?

 

I personally think that as there are hard core anti-semitic groups; there are hard core anti-christian Jews. I think they have done their share to fuel anti-semitism by simply denying the facts of the new testament (whether accurate or not, it is the base for the Christian faith). Also, why come out and make such waves, when you know it will only make the movie bigger and a medium for Jewish and Christians to go at it once more... They kind of created the monster they were afraid of to begin with. Now it has become a boxing match between the two faiths and Gibson's movie is only the excuse for both to throw the punches they have been wanting to throw for decades, centuries and milleniums...

There isn't a jewish MAJORITY, that's a lie.

If this is true, then why when Marlon Brando claimed that if you aren't a friend of the Jews you can't get anywhere in Hollywood he was blacklisted?

Like I said. There are people who are anti-semitic. I do not know if Mel's dad was (or is?) but Why is that an issue? If his father was anti-semitic like some say; what does that have to do with Mel? If my father is an a**hole, would that make me one too?

I don't think mel's father should really be an issue, but to many it is.

 

I personally think that as there are hard core anti-semitic groups; there are hard core anti-christian Jews. I think they have done their share to fuel anti-semitism by simply denying the facts of the new testament (whether accurate or not, it is the base for the Christian faith). Also, why come out and make such waves, when you know it will only make the movie bigger and a medium for Jewish and Christians to go at it once more... They kind of created the monster they were afraid of to begin with. Now it has become a boxing match between the two faiths and Gibson's movie is only the excuse for both to throw the punches they have been wanting to throw for decades, centuries and milleniums...

The jews believe the new testament is a lie (and you guys know my opinion on it) and they don't like to what degree the jews are being represented as jesus' killer. its a matter of context. However, I can't speak for every jew, some might say there was no involvment on the jews' part.

If this is true, then why when Marlon Brando claimed that if you aren't a friend of the Jews you can't get anywhere in Hollywood he was blacklisted?

Maybe Brando is a racist!

 

Think about it. A lot (not a majority) of the directors, writers, producers, and investors are jewish. in the real world people need connections with powerful people. If some of those powerful people are jewish, just use your imagination!

 

There's no jewish majority and i hate the fact people think that. This crap fuels anti-semitism, like there's some sort of jewish conspiracy. That's crap.

If this is true, then why do movies get made criticizing the Christian religion and not the Jewish religion? Why is there a new Holocaust movie every year but never anything on the Crusades? And its not just Christianity, show some love to the Muslims too. They could use a movie or four made about them.

 

But its ok, because like clockwork we have a new Holocaust movie every 1-2 years.

There's no jewish majority and i hate the fact people think that. This crap fuels anti-semitism, like there's some sort of jewish conspiracy. That's crap.

I think you are right. However, the few that have power exercise it forcefully enough to make waves. It would have been simpler and easier on them to not make such a big deal of the movie, when they know very well how the Catholics stand on the Jesus issue.

 

I have said many times through out this board that one can not try to convince others that they are wrong; it only brings agravation. I do not care if the Jewish do not recognize the new testament or that Jesus is the Son of God, as well as I do not agree with those who take this as an excuse to hate Jews. It is not my task to "make" anyone believe in what I believe, but I think it is necessary that our religions come to a middle point and stop going back and forth on the issue.

If this is true, then why do movies get made criticizing the Christian religion and not the Jewish religion? Why is there a new Holocaust movie every year but never anything on the Crusades? And its not just Christianity, show some love to the Muslims too. They could use a movie or four made about them.

 

But its ok, because like clockwork we have a new Holocaust movie every 1-2 years.

Okay, you need better evidence then this! Its not even statistical, its just accusations. 1. You're wrong, there's no jewish media conspiracy.

 

Movies that criticize the christian religion, but not jews? Hmm...

 

2. Minorities are really not made fun of like the majority. Think about it, things could make fun of whites in ways they cannot make fun of blacks. There are 13 million jews on earth, criticizing such a small religion seems kind of useless (however, michael moore's bowling for columbine criticized israel...)

 

Its the minority effect. I can think of only one movie that directly makes fun of the christian religion: dogma. However, that movie makes a mockery out of religion on a whole, so I don't know how much truth is behind your claim.

 

3. Holocaust movies are about world war II, a very popular genre in film making. Sure, a good movie can be made about how chrisitan crusaders slaughtered muslim, jew, and christian alike when they ransacked the middle east, but that's not recent. Historical epics aren't "in" anymore. People like seeing World war II and especially the holocaust, because the mass killings of that era were the most well organized and horrific ever.

 

Now, there isn't a holocaust movie every year, every three just about.

 

And muslims? What kind of movie can we make, one about how much palestine sucks and what drives them to blow people up? Hmmm, that would make a good movie, but it would be so controversial no one would want to touch it. People like good vs. evil movies. Good (us) vs. evil (nazis), or good vs. slavery (amistad), and etc.

 

So no, you did not prove there's a jewish anything, that's ridiculous.

 

However, the ethnicity that was brutalized the most during world war II wasn't the jews, it was the ukranians. As many as 27,000,000 people died in the ukraine during world war II and ukrainians made much of that amount.

If this is true, then why do movies get made criticizing the Christian religion and not the Jewish religion? Why is there a new Holocaust movie every year but never anything on the Crusades? And its not just Christianity, show some love to the Muslims too. They could use a movie or four made about them.

 

But its ok, because like clockwork we have a new Holocaust movie every 1-2 years.

Juanky, I know where you are coming from. However, the crussades is not something Christians should be proud of. Our forefathers inflicted much pain and suffering in the name of God.

 

There are many more movies coming out on the holocaust because it was the most horrific event in human history. Many people are tired of seeing movies made about it, but some cannot forget it, it is just too painful. I am not Jewish, but I still cry when I see one of such movies. So much pain, so much hate for nothing. All for the vanity of one man.

 

There are much more movies criticizing the Christian religion because our religion has been used to create all kinds of brutal events in history, such as the Crussades, the Inquisition and in some part The Holocaust.

I have said many times through out this board that one can not try to convince others that they are wrong; it only brings agravation. I do not care if the Jewish do not recognize the new testament or that Jesus is the Son of God, as well as I do not agree with those who take this as an excuse to hate Jews. It is not my task to "make" anyone believe in what I believe, but I think it is necessary that our religions come to a middle point and stop going back and forth on the issue.

The truth is as long as the christian religion goes by what has been literally said in the new testament and certain jews don't take any responsibility for what some people of their faith have done, the truth will never be understood. I'm from the position that the "jew conspirators" were so few, that we cannot look at it as an religious attack, but rather a political assasination.

 

I think you are right. However, the few that have power exercise it forcefully enough to make waves. It would have been simpler and easier on them to not make such a big deal of the movie, when they know very well how the Catholics stand on the Jesus issue.

Yeah, but people get pissed off from everything and want it edited, which is stupid. The movie "bubbleboy" met stiff resistance because 10 people really have that condition.

 

If the jews controlled the media, the movie would of never been made. I know lcyberlina you don't think that, but now that I am on the issue, I ask juanky this:

 

Do you see any movies about Jesus being a trickster, faking everything? SOme people think jesus wasn'tmuch more, and just a mortal. However, such a movie would be SO offending, it would never see the light of day.

 

So don't take holocaust movies as an attack of the jewish underground.