January 23, 200422 yr Ok I am going to say this short and sweet for you all. Marlins are the number four rotation in baseball and the yankees are number five. There that was easy. Juanky and I must be the only ones who consider the Marlins a top-five rotation. My impression of you: The Devil Rays are definitely a top five team, at least number four. Why? Just because. Who cares I USE NO EVIDENCE to formulate an argument, just because!!! Ok so you want me to spend an hour of my time sifting through the stuff when I can watch it right on the field, and believe me, stats aren't everything. If baseball conformed to stats, Peattite couldn't have won game 2, Beckett couldn't have won game 6, Wells would've beat Penny. the list goes on. The only thing stats are good for is making a person's check bigger or smaller. Why don't you go find an impact stat ok Soriano? Like in Basketball, with the impact number, Caron Butler is the best Heat player but his stats don't show it...
January 23, 200422 yr Yankees 7? That's surely laughable. If any other team had a rotation of Kevin Brown, Javier Vazquez, Mike Mussina, Jose Contreras, and Jon Lieber, they would not be ranked 7. If the red sox had that rotation, they would be ranked 1. the prejudice is disgusting. brown= injury prone vazquez= overated mussina= overated contreras= unproven lieber= garbage That's laughable. Since when is Vazquez OVERRATED??? How about Mussina for that matter? Is Contreras any more unproven than someone like Beckett? Since when was a 20 game winner with renewed velocity garbage? Since when is a fully recovered pitcher (like brown or pettitte) injury prone? Since when did people get away with saying so much stupid things in one post?
January 23, 200422 yr boston really isn't close. Besides pedro, what other edge do they have over the yankees (that being brown is statistically better than schilling.) None. You're asking others for statistical proof. Prove that to me. Dude, I have already done this in other threads, I am not doing it again. Let me put it this way. Brown is better than schilling (look up the stats) and that is the only new guy in the Boston rotation. Kim blew chunks starting for Boston and he is their 5 man pitching against Jon Lieber on the Yankees, who was dependable before injury and now he's fully recovered. Lowe's and Wakefield's era are not good, and Vazquez and Contreras eras are very good. PEdro is the best pitcher ever, but he can no longer give you innings (this has been consistant since 2001. So if you looked up the stats, there is no way the Red Sox can be put over the Yanks, because if the total talent of both rotations is assessed, the Yankees with Mike Mussina, Kevin Brown, Javier Vazquez, Jose Contreras, and Jon Lieber are better than Matinez, schilling, Lowe (high era), Wakefield (average era old knuckleballer), and Kim (didn't do so hot as a starter last year for boston.)
January 23, 200422 yr Ok so you want me to spend an hour of my time sifting through the stuff when I can watch it right on the field, and believe me, stats aren't everything. If baseball conformed to stats, Peattite couldn't have won game 2, Beckett couldn't have won game 6, Wells would've beat Penny. the list goes on. The only thing stats are good for is making a person's check bigger or smaller. Why don't you go find an impact stat ok Soriano? Like in Basketball, with the impact number, Caron Butler is the best Heat player but his stats don't show it... Don't insult my stat sifting. I am trying to build an argument unlike yourself. We both seen all of these pitchers and in my honest opinion Contreras can be one of the best starters in the AL next year and the same can be said with Brown. But that's only my eyes. What I see I cannot prove to you and you can't prove to me, so this is when stats become important. So to say "stats mean nothing", I suggest we pick the devil rays as the next years world champions. They have the most potential talent. so what they never SHOWED it, but I see something special in them. Dude, that's crap. The Yankees are better, I have watched or lsited to every single Yankee game and watched Expos, Dodgers, and even Marlins games. Our starters are better than yours if I go my observations. Furthermore when we go by statistics, the answer (yanks are better) is impossible to question.
January 23, 200422 yr Dude, I have already done this in other threads, I am not doing it again. Let me put it this way. Brown is better than schilling (look up the stats) Well, here are the career stats for Kevin Brown and Curt Schilling: Kevin Brown: 441 GS, 72 CG, 3051 IP, 2840 H, 1.21 WHIP, .246 oppAVG, 3.13 ERA, 197-131 Brown has one 44.67% of his starts Curt Schilling: 338 GS, 79 CG, 2586 IP, 2286 H, 1.12 WHIP, .236 oppAVG, 3.33 ERA, 163-117 Schilling has one 48.22% of his starts Besides a slightly better ERA, more starts, and more wins, the stats kind of favor Schilling more, but please, if I am missing some stats, bring them up.
January 23, 200422 yr We're not talking about career stats. Schilling was better than brown earlier in his career but for the last 8 years that has not been the case, you seen the statistics, do you deny it? However in the last 3 years Schilling has been better only because brown was injured for two of them. However overall Brown has clearly had the lower ERA and I beleive adjusted era (I can't remember the numbers though, you can look them up.) Last year, Kevin Brown's era when adjusted for ballpark effects was 169 compared to Schilling's 159, making Brown the better pitcher when it comes to giving up earned runs, so with a better bullpen the yankees are going to win more games with brown than the sox will win with schilling. Nevertheless (because I have to get back to microeconomics work), I'll use AGS (average game score) for pitchers to assess which pitching staff is better (the yanks or red sox.) It does not adjust for ballpark effects (a weakness), but it helps. Game Score. Start with 50 points. Add 1 point for each out recorded, (3 points per inning). Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th. Add 1 point for each strikeout. Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed. Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed. Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed. Subtract 1 point for each walk. Majors average: 50.0 Yankees Kevin brown 59.8 Javy Vazquez 59.2 Mike Mussina 58.4 Jose Contreras 63.0 Team Average: 60.1 Red Sox PEdro MArtinez 62.8 Curt Schilling 62.3 Tim Wakefield 51.6 Derek Lowe 47.9 Team Average: 56.9 This of course is not the best way to do it, because it does not account for ballpark effects and does not properly judge the differences in K/BB in ground ballers, but still the Yankees win out.
January 23, 200422 yr Don't get me wrong, SorianoFanHFW, I'm not trying to bust your balls because you are a Yankees fan. I agree with you when you say that Oakland has the best rotation, but after that, I think the difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox is a lot closer than you might think (I've been through a lot of stats now, and it's getting tough to pick out the better one). When I'm not at school in PA, I live in Connecticut, so I watch my fair share of Red Sox and Yankee games, so I have watched these guys pitch and know what I am talking about. Kim blew chunks starting for Boston and he is their 5 man pitching Kim started 12 games last year, having an ERA of 3.38 (I don't know the adjusted ERA), 3-6, .231 oppAVG, 72 IP, 63 H, 23 BB, and 48 K Not to be a really annoying about it, but you say that Oakland is the best (which I wholeheartedly agree with), but their 5th starter is Rich Harden. Last year, he started 13 games, 4.46 ERA, 5-4, .263 oppAVG, 72.2IP, 71 H, 38 BB, and 66 K. I could (and you could for that matter) being giving statistics till we're blue in the face here, but it doesn't matter. From what I can see in these stats, the A's, Yanks, and Red Sox have extremely good pitching staffs. For argument's sake, I'll put the A's one, but after that, I dunno about the Yanks and Red Sox. Like you said, wait until the season starts and then get into all of this.
January 23, 200422 yr Ok so you want me to spend an hour of my time sifting through the stuff when I can watch it right on the field, and believe me, stats aren't everything. If baseball conformed to stats, Peattite couldn't have won game 2, Beckett couldn't have won game 6, Wells would've beat Penny. the list goes on. The only thing stats are good for is making a person's check bigger or smaller. Why don't you go find an impact stat ok Soriano? Like in Basketball, with the impact number, Caron Butler is the best Heat player but his stats don't show it... Don't insult my stat sifting. I am trying to build an argument unlike yourself. We both seen all of these pitchers and in my honest opinion Contreras can be one of the best starters in the AL next year and the same can be said with Brown. But that's only my eyes. What I see I cannot prove to you and you can't prove to me, so this is when stats become important. So to say "stats mean nothing", I suggest we pick the devil rays as the next years world champions. They have the most potential talent. so what they never SHOWED it, but I see something special in them. Dude, that's crap. The Yankees are better, I have watched or lsited to every single Yankee game and watched Expos, Dodgers, and even Marlins games. Our starters are better than yours if I go my observations. Furthermore when we go by statistics, the answer (yanks are better) is impossible to question. The only stats that matter are the number of wins and losses. Everything else is just baseball competetion. The stats are in indicator of a player overall but not an indicator of how he really does when it comes down to it. The only people on the staff of the Yankees that are probably going to play every game are Mussina and Vasquez...
January 23, 200422 yr Beinfest, and pettitte won 21 gams last year, was he better than mussina? yes according to your logic. Stats are important and observation cannot build a better argument, at least not this time. And Pavano is your only pitcher who started full season last year, so I guess mussina and vazquez, is 2 more than you... Clap, I see what you mean, but Lowe and Wakefield are not always the greatest of starters and people are udnerrating contreras, but yes, the season will answer our quetions.
January 23, 200422 yr Yankees 7? That's surely laughable. If any other team had a rotation of Kevin Brown, Javier Vazquez, Mike Mussina, Jose Contreras, and Jon Lieber, they would not be ranked 7. If the red sox had that rotation, they would be ranked 1. the prejudice is disgusting. brown= injury prone vazquez= overated mussina= overated contreras= unproven lieber= garbage And yet, if the Giants acquired any one of them to start behind Schmit, they'd be vastly underrated. Give me a break.
January 23, 200422 yr dude it doesnt matter ... Darren Holmes & Julian Tavarez could pitch for the Yanks and they'll be the best 1-2 punch in history acording to this guy.... (soriano)... i mean after all its the yankess they only have the best. this is one way to look at it Yankees (loss Clemens and Pettite) ... (gained Vasquez, Brown) .... if your telling me that Vasquez and Brown are better than Clemens and Pettite than good for you and you only, because i really doubt that. Than ... u have Jon Lieber who hasnt pitched a full season in ages, yes he won 20 games a couple of years ago, but that doesnt make him a good pitcher .... Billy Swift won 20 games with SF ... was he good after? ... Lima?? ... Same with Contreras he has nasty stuff but hasnt proven anything. Yankees Lost Clemens/pettite/wells/weaver (im even counting him as part of your rotation) Gained Vasquez/Brown/Lieber (through injury / missed the last 45 years... still the guy is better than ever... riiiiight) DOWNGRADE Red Sox lost Burkett Gained Curt Schilling UPGRADE Cubs Lost Shawn Estes Gained Greg Maddux UPGRADE A's lost Ted Lilly Gained Mark Redman UPGRADE Marlins Lost Mark Redman Gained AJ Burntett UPGRADE Astros Lost --no one-- Gained Clemens Pettite UPGRADE Phills Lost Duckworth Gained Milton / Millwood (through free agency) UPGRADE .......... see the pattern soriano?, while most teams upgraded their rotation since last year, your yankees downgraded plus they dont have a lefty in their rotation, so thats another huge factor to look at. im no baseball genius so i dont knwo about crazy ERA's or whatever your all talking about, all i look at is the quality you gain or lose and i STRONGLY believe that the yanks staff was much stronger last year.
January 23, 200422 yr Your post is so udderly absurd and illogical, it is scary. It is not worth a trademarked number crunching response. If you wouldn't take Brown over Pettitte, Vazquez over Clemens, Lieber over Weaver, and Contreras over Wells, you have some major problems. No team upgraded their starting rotation more than the Yankees. To say the complete opposite is so unreasonable and ludicrous that it is boggling to the reasonable and logical baseball mind. If other people don't say, "You dude, Pettite is definitely not as good as Brown" people here have a big problem with analyzing the complete obvious. It is an impossibility for Pettitte to be considered better than Kevin Brown or Javier Vazquez...IMPOSSIBLE. To suggest a downgrade occurred is incredibly absurd and it is obvious that your mind has been brainwashed by the media. If you don't have the oppurtunity to watch these men pitch, rely on the statistics...they never lie. well, besides for armando benitez, I can never figure him out. P.S. Julian Tavarez and some schmoe? What kind of example is that, comparing two of the top ten pitchers in the majors (Brown and Vazquez) to those guys. You are completely off your rocker old man.
January 23, 200422 yr two of the top ten pitchers in the majors (Brown and Vazquez) I've tried to stay out of this but here we go anyways. Brown is in the top ten- Vazquez no. But there's no question he can be.
January 23, 200422 yr Vazquez was 10th in the NL in ERA, 7th in ERA+, and he pitched more innings than others who are ahead of him (a lot more because he pitched 230 IP.) In fact he is tied for 10th in the majors in ERA+ with Esteban Loiza. So he is in the top 10! Kevin Brown had the 4th best ERA+ in the majors last year. Not too shabby...not too shabby at all.
January 23, 200422 yr i never said he was bad, he's very good, but he's not top ten You can't be top ten when you go 13-12 (or something like that)
January 23, 200422 yr i never said he was bad, he's very good, but he's not top ten You can't be top ten when you go 13-12 (or something like that) I was always under the belief that run support has nothing to do with a pitcher's ability. Was Barry Zito or kevin brown bas last year? No, they got no run support.
January 24, 200422 yr Kevin Brown got no runs but still did better than Vazquez Yes, but run support is too much a matter of chance. That's why wins are erratic. On the Yankees, Mussina had the best era, but had less wins than Pettitte. Why? There are too many other factors and no one is going to say Pettitte is better than Mussina. Vazquez W-L does not concern me.
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