fanfish

I am worried about the high level of emotional debate going on in the legislature concerning the property vs sales tax proposal. In order to secure votes, legislators usually compromise on other issues that are not as important to them, or to their political futures. This, I am afraid, may soften the support of the Marlins stadium aid by some of the leaders who consider the tax debate a more pressing issue.

It seems that the discusion is now centered about which plan has a better chance to be approved by the legislature: 1. Lump sum of $100 million dollars to be divided equally among the Marlins, Lightning and Magic. 2. A $2 million yearly rebate to the Marlins along with the other 9 professional sport teams. Senator De la Portilla (from Miami) seems to be changing his mind about which plan to support, now prefering #2 ( no doubt politically motivated) and this seems to be causing some uncertainty with other legislators. Most believe that plan #1 would have been easier to pass. Here is the Herald article. LEGISLATURE | SPORTS Dade lawmaker unsure about Marlins subsidy A proposal that would cut the Florida Marlins a one-time, $32.6 million check is facing trouble from Miami-Dade lawmakers. BY YUDY PINEIRO AND MARC CAPUTO ypineiro@MiamiHerald.com TALLAHASSEE -- The Miami-Dade delegation's long-sought attempt to use tax money to build a new Florida Marlins baseball park is experiencing resistance from the unexpected: Miami-Dade's own delegation members. Noting the state's stingy budget that cuts services for the developmentally disabled, Miami Sen. Alex Diaz de la Portilla is balking at the price tag of a new economic development package that would help the Marlins. The proposal: Take about $100 million from the state's budget and divide it equally among three teams: the Marlins, the Tampa Bay Lightning hockey team and the Orlando Magic. But Sen. Rudy Garcia of Hialeah said he believes his fellow Republican senator -- and sometime-rival -- might have a ''political agenda.'' Diaz de la Portilla verbally agreed on the plan last week. Diaz de la Portilla said he has had a ''gut check'' since that discussion and since he voted for a bill that cuts up to $120 million in services for mentally and physically disabled people. He's considering changing his vote. ''Before we take care of billionaires, we need to take care of the neediest and poorest citizens,'' said Diaz de la Portilla, a Republican, echoing the sentiment of black lawmakers and Democrats. Diaz de la Portilla's solution: Revert to language in rival bills filed by both him and Garcia to extend a $2 million yearly subsidy for a Marlins ballpark. Through a procedural move, Diaz de la Portilla has filed a number of amendments to the new bill to ensure the language sticks. The bill is supposed to be heard today at the Senate's Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations, but could be postponed. REPEAT SUBSIDY The Marlins subsidy has died year after year for a variety of reasons. The main argument against it: The Marlins franchise received it in the 1990s under a previous owner. This year, though, lawmakers support giving the Marlins and all other nine professional sports franchises in the state the same break. But they say the state can't commit to a year-after-year expense as the budget slows. Instead, they want to spend a relative surplus of one-time money for one-time projects, such as the Marlins stadium. Sen. Mike Fasano, a New Port Richey Republican who chairs the economic development committee, said he thought the $100 million plan was perfect. Until now. `QUITE SHOCKED' ''I'm quite shocked at what I'm hearing and what I'm finding out. I'm shocked there's opposition to the bill with someone who said he was OK with it,'' Fasano said. The bill would have these safeguards: The facility must be owned by local governments in Orlando, Tampa and Miami. The team has to stay in the state for 15 years and have an attendance of 300,000 a year. At least $60 million of local money must be invested. Garcia said if the proposal doesn't have backing, he's willing to go back to the subsidy option -- as long as Miami-Dade County and Miami get the $30 million they're missing to build the Marlins a $490 million publicly-owned stadium. Democrats are criticizing the notion of spending money to help sports teams but not the poor. House members won't support the $100 million plan, said state Rep. David Rivera, a Miami Republican who controls the flow of legislation on the floor of the chamber. He said the 30-year subsidy has more appeal because it's supposed to operate as a rebate in which the state remits dollar-for-dollar sales-tax collections on the first $2 million each year. Said Diaz de la Portilla: ``It's a good idea at the wrong time.''

Julio's control still an issue in latest outing Click-2-Listen By Tom D'Angelo Palm Beach Post Staff Writer Monday, April 16, 2007 ATLANTA ? The Marlins were hoping to restore Jorge Julio's confidence by pitching him in non-pressure situations. So much for that plan. The erstwhile closer allowed a run on four walks and a wild pitch in the sixth inning of Florida's loss to Atlanta on Sunday. He threw 38 pitches, 17 for strikes. In 42/3 innings this season, Julio has walked 10 and struck out one. He has allowed 10 hits and seven runs. Julio's struggles have forced the Marlins to go to a closer-by-committee approach. "We got to get him back and that's the only way, we got to keep getting him in there," manager Fredi Gonzalez said following the game. "We'll keep running him out there every situation we can, because we need to get him fixed." Marlins pitching coach Rick Kranitz came out to talk to Julio after he went 2-0 on Jeff Francoeur. Julio walked Francoeur, scoring Kelly Johnson. No shows: Former Marlins pitcher Joe Borowski ripped South Florida fans after the Indians drew an average of 17,488 for three "home" games in Milwaukee. At the same time, the Marlins were averaging 11,140 at Dolphin Stadium for three games against the Brewers. "Whatever they do down there, they're never going to draw," Borowski, the Indians' closer, told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. "New stadium or not, they're never going to draw. "What's the excuse last year? The way we played after an (11-31) start, to finish how we did, still nothing. They were announcing 12,000 at the game, but if you were at the game there were about 3,000 in the stands. It was a disgrace."

We look sharp, or does Redman look bad? Or both?

Marlins2003, I agree with most of what you say, but even though Julio looked a little better than he has in other appearances, he still was not effective. For a closer that is the only bottom line. His command is not there and when he falls behind in the count, the hitters know a fastball is coming and smack the heck out of it. Don't forget that he was saved by Willingham's catch in the top of the ninth, or it could have been much worse. I personally am not blaming Beinfest for anything. Julio has simply not worked out so far. He should be demoted to a less stressful and less meaningful role in the bullpen until he can consistently get batters out and not allow runs every time he comes into a game. I also believe that he will eventually prove that he is much better than he has shown so far, but he should not be our closer until that happens. Just "keep running him out there" and blowing saves is not the right thing to do.

I am usually very patient. I'm usually of the last fans to give up on players, but I've had it with Julio. He has shown he is consistent in being ineffective. If he had blown a save, then done well for a few games before he had blown the second save, well, that would be a different story. He has proven that he can't get the job done. He has not looked good in ANY of his appearances. It is time to demote him to a less stressful situation or mop-up duty. If he is not effective under those circumstances then he needs to have a minor league vacation. If he is allowed to continue to close games, Beinfest will be faced with a fan uprising he and the Marlins don't need.

Everybody is on Julio's case right now, as they should be. The fans need to show their displeasure, specially when a player performs as poorly as Julio has. But we must get used to the idea that Julio will be around for a while. The team isn't giving up on their third highest paid player after 3 bad outings and one blown save. They will stick with him at least until they think he has had an opportunity to adjust his delivery and adjust his mind not to overthrow. So, I'm afraid that we will all have to put up with Julio for now. His demotion is not even close! What I fear the most is Julio's mind set. The rain of boos will come with every appearance he makes and will intensify if he falters. If he is able to turns things around in spite of all this, it will speak volumes about his character.

Freddy showed me something today. He went to the bullpen to replace Julio. He did the right thing. Now lets see what Beinfest says. He has to save face somehow. During today's telecast he mentioned that Julio was definitely the closer and that he had faith in him. Of course, that was before today's meltdown. I hope the manager and the GM talk this out and avoid a rift "a la Girardi". Gardner really impresses everyone today. That was masterful!

Julio is officially in the dog house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The thing is, NO pitcher should be routinely giving up 2-3 runs every inning. By no means is that restricted to the ninth inning. You are right, but anything terrible that happens toward the end of the game, specially the ninth inning, is magnified in importance because there is less opportunity to correct it. And if its an away game, you lose. That's the importance of a closer over the rest of the bull pen.

De Aza looks good so far. He may indeed be the real thing. Hermida has to be given a real shot to prove he's the player everyone thought he would be. He'll be be back late April or early May. Willingham is off to a great start. I wouldn't mess with the out field right now.

He needs something, but I don't think a day off is warranted after only 5 bad days. At this point it may hurt his confidence more than help his hitting. (But I wouldn't mind seeing Almezaga hit in his spot for a few games)

After Saturday's game I'm really worried about Julio. A closer can't come in to the ninth inning and routinely give up 2-3 runs! He gave 3 up against the Nationals and gave up 2 runs on Saturday against the Phillies. He seems to have "good stuff" but his command is really lacking. He's walking people and getting behind in the counts. Is he overthrowing the ball because he is anxious? I still think he can turn it around, but he made me suffer through the ninth as if we were losing the game. I saw that Freddy had the bullpen warming up in the ninth on Saturday after he gave up the first run. I guess Freddy was suffering too.

No word on attendance? They are expecting about 35,000

Fredi did not make a mistake. Julio is the closer. Whether you like it or not it's Julio's job to close games. If he fails too often then the job should go to someone else. But he must be given the opportunity to begin with. A few more games like this one early in the season will result in a demotion. Let's give it a break. The most important thing right now is seeing how he responds in his next save opportunity. If he comes back a couple of times and sucks then we really have to start thinking about our other options at closer. I think this team can be in contention if it has an average or better bullpen along with a good closer. So, we need him to be effective. However, let's see how he responds. Remember. Everyone fails. It's how you respond to failure that separates the good/great ones from the mediocre ones, in baseball and in life. I don't agree with you often, but I do today. He has to blow a few more saves before he can be demoted. He looked very nervous today. Lets see how he does next time. We'll all be watching and holding our breath!

Great opening day feeling! We have the rest of the season to see how we'll finish. For now, I'm just going to enjoy being in first place!

85-77 and we'll finish third in the division We'll get our stadium sometime this summer We'll tweak the team next winter 2008 will be our year

I have been following this saga for quite a while now. I am not here to flame but from what I have observed, MLB is dedicated to getting the right deal for the Fish to stay in SFLA. Not just any deal......but the right deal. It appears that once again the politicos are making a football of this deal. If that is the case, MLB WILL eventually run out of patience and give up on ever getting the right deal. At that point the club leaves......imho. I thought we were done with you. You don't give up, do you?

BroncoBob, I believe that poor attendance at Marlins games has a great deal to do with the two fire sales and with the uncertainty about the team remaining in South Florida. We will never know how this area would have responded if the 1997 season would have been the beginning of a winning tradition. The failure to build a baseball only stadium in the area may not guarantee wins, but it would certainly calm the fears of losing the Marlins. A winning team, coupled with the feeling of permanence of the team, would have allowed a true fan base to develop much more readily, thus improving attendance. I think most would agree with this. My intention was not to offer excuses. I simply wanted to explain what we have had to endure to the constant critics of the Marlins' attendance. Most out of town critics are not familiar with the details of our problems. I wanted to remind them of the players that we've lost, the contraction talk, the relocation experience, and the new stadium nightmare we have had to endure for ten years. These were real events. Call them excuses, consequences, reasons....call them what you want, but we Marlins fans have had to put up with them nevertheless. Someday, hopefully soon, we may be able to put all this behind us.

I stopped reading this excuse after you failed to mention how we were still near or dead last in attendance from '03 to the present time while we had winning seasons and/or competitive teams. But on a positive note I did get past how you failed to mention attendance steadily dropped from about '94 until '97, and only when it was apparent we were going to the playoffs in '97 did attendance perk up. I almost puked...but I got past it. It got to be another prime example of "It's not my fault. It's the traffic flow", type of attitude. Under 15K a game last year. 5K in season ticket packages. ROY winner on the team with many ROY candidates beside him, many MLB and Marlins records broken, in the WC race right up until the final week, after a World Championship and then 2 more winning seasons. That is humiliating no matter how many excuses you can come up with. Might as well put on a red and blue hat and start blaming farm animals. In other words... Stop making excuses of why you don't go to the games and start dreaming up excuses of why you want to go to the games. It's all in the attitude. Read that last paragraph again. SLOWLY So you can begin to understand. 1. I am a season ticket holder. 2. These are not MY excuses. I go to a ton of games every year. 3. You may call them "excuses", but many fans call them reasons. 4. I remember all of your excuses not to go to games when and if the Marlins move to Miami. 5. It seems you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. So aggressive, so early. Take a pill, settle down or you may indeed puke all over yourself.

So you criticize South Florida fans. You wonder why, even after winning two World Series in their first ten years of existence, there is still poor attendance at Marlins games. You even wonder if we deserve to have a baseball team even though we don?t support it. Right? You want reasons? Well, here is the long version. In the beginning, in 1993, everything was good. Baseball came to South Florida. We had a new baseball team playing in its owner?s football stadium, Joe Robbie Stadium (now Dolphin Stadium). There were great crowds. No problem. Then the search began. The search for the baseball-only NEW MARLINS STADIUM (NMS)! Mr. Owner said that he would build his own stadium in ?Wayne?s World.? Remember? Blockbuster Park was to be built on the Dade-Broward county line, and the NMS was going to be a part of it. Well, Wayne sold Blockbuster and that was the end of that. Wayne wanted to see, ?if I spend it, will they come?? Big bucks were spent and the 1997 World Series was ours. We celebrated for ONE WHOLE DAY! The axe came down before the confetti hit the ground. The boss thought he spent more than they came. Knowing that public money was not going to be handed to a multi-millionaire to build a stadium, he broke up the team so that he could sell it. Kevin Brown, Al Leiter, Livan Hernandez, Gary Sheffield, Charles Johnson, Rob Nen, Edgar Renteria, Bobby Bonilla, Greg Counsell, Devon White, and Jeff Conine among others were gone. Read this list again, SLOWLY, so you can BEGIN to feel our pain. Attendance plummeted. It was 1998. A very bad season followed. The Marlins went from champs to chumps. They went 54-108. Dead last in the division, finishing 52 games behind the Braves! For a while, there were no serious takers. Then along came John Henry. Our savior? He even had a white (kind of weird) cowboy hat. We were told of the horrible lease he had at the then Pro Player Stadium (previously known as Joe Robbie Stadium) and that he had to have a NMS. We were told not to worry because if push came to shove, he would build the stadium himself. They pushed and later shoved. He asked for help anyway. Locations were debated and chosen (by the Miami River). We needed cash. First, Governor Bush said no to a tax on Mickey Arison?s boats, Carnival Cruise Lines, and then the Legislature said, ?No,? to a sales tax rebate of 60 million dollars over 30 years. Strike one. A few months later, the City of Miami and Miami-Dade County said they had solved the funding problem and agreed on a deal for the NMS, but nobody could find Henry. Where is Henry? Hennnnnnnry! Hennnnnnnnry! It turns out that our friend Henry got fed up with the whole thing a few months before the solution was found, and he had been talking to his bud, Bud. Bud in turn had been talking to his bud, Loria. The switcharoo was on. And Bud said, ?Henry, you take the Red Sox and give the Marlins to Loria. Loria, you take the Fish and give us the Expos. We?ll move the Expos and sell them later to somebody in D.C.? In the mean time we had to endure contraction talk. Remember that? We were on the short list of teams that would go ?poof? in the night and disappear. Attendance plummeted. It was 2002. In comes Loria. The town, by this time, was very skeptical, to say the least. The media was trying to figure out not ?if,? but ?how? and ?when? Loria would stick it to the fans and South Florida. A bad season was followed by a World Series season in 2003 that came out of the blue. There was talk of a NMS again. Back to the Legislature in 2004. But???..Strike two. In early 2005 a site was picked again. The NMS was going to be next to the Orange Bowl. After many months, deadlines, and meetings, the city, county, and team agreed on a plan. Back to the Legislature. Strrrrrrrrrrike Threeeeeeeeee. Then we heard: 1. The city and county wanted the team to stay but couldn?t give any more money. 2. The team wanted to stay but couldn?t give any more money, wouldn?t give up the retractable roof demands on the NMS and decided to explore their options. 3. Las Vegas vultures were sighted. 4. Then Loria yelled, ?Fire! Fire! Fire!? The 2005 sale was on! Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Carlos Delgado, Paul LoDuca, Juan Pierre, Luis Castillo, Alex Gonzalez , Juan Encarnacion, AJ Burnett, Jeff Conine, and Todd Jones among others were gone. Carl Pavano, Pudge Rodriguez and Derrick Lee had gone the year before. Read this list again, slowly, to REALLY feel our pain. Are you getting the idea? Attendance plummeted. It was 2005. Then the team asked and got permission from MLB to look around and see where they could move. They packed their lunches and went on a road trip to Las Vegas, Portland and San Antonio. They talked to Virginia, Charlotte and others. Talks became ?very serious? with San Antonio to the point that the owner, Mr. Loria, asked a San Antonio group, Mr. Wolff and his pack, to sit with him at the 2006 opening-day game in Houston. Marlins fans were expected to take it in stride and support ?our? team while on TV we watched ?our? owner cuddling up with the San Antonio dudes. Needless to say, that didn?t help attendance either. Surprisingly we had a decent year in 2006 with Miguel Cabrera, Dontrelle Willis and a bunch of rookies. But by now, the general population had had enough of fire sales #1 and #2. They had had enough of contraction talk and relocation talk. Oh, and did I tell you there is a threat of rain practically every night in South Florida during the summer? So, we are expected to disregard everything that has gone on and take a chance of sitting through rain delays and getting soaked! Oh, and did I tell you that you can fry steaks (not just eggs) on anybody?s head on day games at the stadium (even while wearing a hat!!!!)? Coupled with 99.9% humidity, it is a delight witnessing a bunch of rookies play day games on Sundays while we slowly dehydrate and burn under the mid-day tropical sun. In 2006 we began to hear of a plan to build the NMS with a retractable roof in Hialeah, a mostly blue-collar city just northwest of Miami. Mr. Robaina, the mayor of Hialeah, spearheaded the effort, but many obstacles remained. In order for the stadium to be built in the chosen Hialeah site, the Urban Development Boundary had to be moved. This ?boundary? is an arbitrary line drawn on the map to prevent construction too close to the Everglades. Environmentalist-tree-huggers popped out of the woodwork! They didn?t want to give an inch even if the stadium were to be built east of the Florida Turnpike. (The Everglades are to the west of the Turnpike) You really can?t see the alligators from there. Believe me! Well, after several months and more than a few colorful meetings and discussions, the boundary was moved. Mr. Robaina was to meet with the MLB brass in New York, but for different reasons the meeting was canceled several times. It turns out that MLB wanted the NMS in downtown Miami but the Marlins big shots were not on speaking terms with the City of Miami dudes. After the Orange Bowl site plan fell through in 2005, the city manager had a very public falling-out with the Marlins? president; there has been bad blood between the city and the team ever since, even though there is now a new manager for the City of Miami. Enter downtown Miami. Two areas were originally identified as potential sites for the NMS. The first, just south of the now abandoned Miami Arena, and the second, just north of the Government Center. In order to help with the finances, the Mayor of Miami, Mr. Diaz, floated the idea of tapping into the coffers of the Community Redevelopment Agency (CRA) which handles the funds that are intended to aid residents and businesses located in blighted areas of the city. Well, wouldn?t you know it, the proposed sites are close but not within the boundaries encompassed by that agency. Can?t you just see trouble brewing over that? But wait. Hooooold your horses. The Orange Bowl site came back to life! It seems that several Miami-Dade County commissioners were not as happy with the downtown sites after all. You see, there were plans for some sort of juvenile court to be built right where second base was supposed to go. So the plans for a downtown NMS might not even get to first base after all. At about the same time, it became known that the Hurricanes (of the University of Miami fame) were thinking of moving their home football games from the Orange Bowl to Dolphin Stadium (previously known as Pro Player Stadium, that was previously known as Joe Robbie Stadium) A new idea surfaced: If the Hurricanes move out of the Orange Bowl, the old stadium could be demolished (if it doesn?t collapse by itself first) and the NMS could be built on that site at a lower cost and much more comfortably rather than trying to ?shoehorn? it at the much smaller downtown site. That scenario would also save the City of Miami a bunch of millions it had intended on spending to remodel the Toilet Bowl, excuse me, I mean the Orange Bowl. Well, everything was placed on hold while UM decides where they will play. Without a definite site being chosen, the city, the county, the team and MLB agreed on a financial plan for the NMS that left a short fall of 30 million dollars. Sound familiar yet? So what?s the next step? You guessed it! Back to Tallahassee, of course! Reportedly, there is a better chance of passage this time since there are more Marlins friendly state legislators in powerful positions. We?ll see. Meanwhile, we fans wonder and wait for the next piece of news. Personally I?m tired. They?ve been talking, discussing and meeting about the NMS for about ten years and still nothing. I consider myself a huge Marlins fan, and personally, I?m very tired. I wonder for how much longer we will be asked to emotionally back a team if we don?t know if they will be staying? How much longer will we be asked to accept losing our established and familiar players year after year? I wonder also how many fans would go to see the Yanks, Cubs, Cardinals or Red Sox if they had to endure everything we have tolerated and still tolerate. And still Marlins fans get criticized for their ?lack of support.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Mr. Hill, Your work has been greatly appreciated and there is no doubt that you will be sorely missed by the players and Marlins fans alike. Good luck to you, sir.

It's interesting that leading the charge to kill the Marlins chances are Broward and Palm Beach county democrats. Hopefully they'll come to understand if they want anything for their constituents this session they ought to get in line because the majority of republicans in both houses can cripple both counties' desires for their own pork barrel projects. And let them go back to Boca and Ft Lauderdale and explain THAT to their consituents. ( Knows SoFlaFish is going to really enjoy this post ) These legislators must feel that the Marlins will continue to play at Dolphin stadium indefinitely if a new stadium is not built. Either that, or they don't give a damn about baseball, period. Those are the only reasons that I can possibly conceive may be going through their selfish minds. It is well known that the Marlins won't stay at Dolphin stadium beyond the 2010 season. Not necessarily because Wayne will kick them out, but because of the horrible deal that the Marlins have with dear-ole-Wayne. These Broward and PBC politicians actually prefer to risk losing the Marlins to another state rather than to help the team move further south. Pathetic!

Agree with Ramp. Center field should be our main goal right now. Owens and Lindstrom have looked pretty damn good so far. I think we should stick with them and see. Besides, I've heard that Benites' velocity is down significantly and with his injuries last year, I don't think its worth losing a good prospect to get him. If a good CF candidate emerges, we should go for him, hard. And if it means giving up a prospect or two, so be it. Are there any CF free agents left unsigned that should interest us?

LOL You have my word on it that I have contacted no politicians. I don't like the downtown site, I don't like the OB site, and I don't want to have to give up my season tickets. I will debate the virtues of all the proposed sites with a lean towards being in Hialeah (even over the best location for me, Pompano) because I honestly feel that is the best place for all 3 counties involved. But I'm a team player and will gladly take one on the chin if ANY deal gets done. It has been my stance all along. Fair enough??? quote from BroncoBob27 That's fair.