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Well I guess he is 24 Bowyer's demotion to Triple A might have moved hard-throwing right-hander Carlos Martinez a step closer to a roster spot in the bullpen, a big jump for a pitcher who has thrown just three innings above Single A. ''He's done nothing but impress us,'' Girardi said of Martinez, a 24-year-old Venezuelan. ``Every time he goes out, he gets outs. He's down in the zone with all his pitches. His innings have been as easy as anyone here.'' Martinez has appeared in five games, throwing 5 2/3 scoreless innings and giving up just one hit. But if he sticks in the majors, he might have to reduce his repertoire from the four pitches he throws now. ''A lot of times bullpen guys narrow their pitches down,'' Girardi said in reference to Martinez, who was 12-23 with 38 saves and a 3.27 ERA in five minor-league seasons. ``I'm sure as he gets further along in his trade he won't be a four-pitch pitcher. But so far he's proven that he can throw all his pitches over at any time, so why would we take one away from him?'' Weird though :confused

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sport...ll/14194886.htm MARLINS NOTEBOOKShortstop Andino, upset with demotion, leaves camp The Marlins moved closer to setting their Opening Day roster Sunday, optioning infielders Robert Andino and Jason Stokes and pitcher Travis Bowyer to Triple A Albuquerque (N.M.) and reassigning outfielder Mark Little and catcher Ryan Jorgensen to minor-league camp. But after learning he was being sent down in a morning meeting with manager Joe Girardi and general manager Admin Beinfest, Andino left camp in a huff, his agent said. ''He's having a hard time with it,'' said Michael Maulini, Andino's Miami-based representative. ``He's very upset. He doesn't understand the whole thing. He felt like all along he wouldn't get a fair shot to win the job.'' The Marlins started the spring with rookie Hanley Ramirez as their likely Opening Day shortstop, and Ramirez has done nothing to change their minds, hitting .339 and leading the team with 14 runs. However, Andino, who played at Miami's Southridge High School, was almost as productive, hitting .325 in 40 at-bats after struggling in a 17-game trial with the Marlins last fall. ''He proved he can play in the big leagues. He proved he belongs,'' said Maulini, who talked with Andino on Sunday afternoon and said his player would be back in camp today. ''He's got to deal with it,'' he added. ``It's just part of the game.'' Girardi said the decision to send Andino down was a difficult one. But with Ramirez expected to play every day, the club preferred to have the 21-year-old Andino playing in the minors rather than sitting on the bench in the majors. ''It was really hard sending Robert down. And I told him it was just a small bump in the road,'' Girardi said. ``I believe that Robert's a big-league ballplayer. But right now we're going to start with Hanley. ``Everything we heard about [Ramirez], he was a complete player. There really wasn't anything he couldn't do.'' Sunday's five roster moves leave the Marlins seven players over the Opening Day limit of 25 with a week left in spring training. TOUGH CUTS Although Girardi said he found the meeting with Andino particularly difficult, he said the decision to send any player down has been emotional. ''There's a lot of tough cuts, and they're not fun,'' the first-time manager said. ``I don't enjoy it, and I usually get a headache that day. Because you don't forget what it's like. And how bad you want to be here.'' Girardi said he still remembers the first time he was sent down when he thought he belonged in the majors. It was 1989, and Girardi made the Chicago Cubs' roster out of spring training because regular catcher Damon Berryhill was hurt. But when Berryhill returned from the disabled list, Girardi was farmed out. ''It broke my heart,'' he said. ``I never thought there was an easy way for a manager to do it. It's just a tough part of the job. Especially if you played. Because you know what your dreams were like. Your dreams were about being a big-league player.'' BOWYER'S CHANCES Bowyer's demotion to Triple A might have moved hard-throwing right-hander Carlos Martinez a step closer to a roster spot in the bullpen, a big jump for a pitcher who has thrown just three innings above Single A. ''He's done nothing but impress us,'' Girardi said of Martinez, a 24-year-old Venezuelan. ``Every time he goes out, he gets outs. He's down in the zone with all his pitches. His innings have been as easy as anyone here.'' Martinez has appeared in five games, throwing 5 2/3 scoreless innings and giving up just one hit. But if he sticks in the majors, he might have to reduce his repertoire from the four pitches he throws now. ''A lot of times bullpen guys narrow their pitches down,'' Girardi said in reference to Martinez, who was 12-23 with 38 saves and a 3.27 ERA in five minor-league seasons. ``I'm sure as he gets further along in his trade he won't be a four-pitch pitcher. But so far he's proven that he can throw all his pitches over at any time, so why would we take one away from him?'' email thisprint this

This time it came from the St. Petersburg Times. I hope all these rumors go away once and for all. unless they're Ryan Church rumors. :mischief :cool lol :lol tru

http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...ost&f=1&t=58766 "Joey Gathright isn't the only outfielder the Marlins are pursuing; they are also interested in Houston's Willy Taveras" This time it came from the St. Petersburg Times. I hope all these rumors go away once and for all.

rferry Posted Today, 02:54 PM There's speculation that Church might even not make the Nats' opening day roster. Shame. He's a good player. He could fill our hole in CF pretty easily. (Yes, he plays CF too) Thats what I been hearing rferry. I don't know if some of you understand all the options we will have if we acquire Ryan Church. This guy plays LF, CF, RF is a high .OBP type of hitter like Jeremy Hermida, Josh Williangham, Miguel Cabrera he ca 1) He can play LF, CF, RF 2) Another high OBP type of a player to go along with Miguel Cabrera, Jeremy Hermida, Josh Williangham 3) He's a lefty 4) He's cheap both in terms of salary and what we will have to give up. 5) Can hit 2,3,4,5,6 in the line-up Line-up could look something like, though you can set it up any number of ways SS Hanley Ramirez RF Jeremy Hermida 3B Miguel Cabrera LF/CF Ryan Church (yes I put him here and not Jacobs) C Josh Williangham 1B Mike Jacobs LF/CF Chris Aguila/ Reggie Abercrombie/ Reed though line-up if different with him in it 2b Dan Uggla http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6032401947.html Looking to Add Though the Nationals are rumored to be looking at Detroit's Nook Logan as a potential center fielder -- and the Tigers have scouted the Nationals this week -- Bowden said his first preference for an addition to the team in the final week of spring training is pitching. Still, the Nationals would consider Logan or Florida's Eric Reed as a way to add more speed to the lineup. . . . Renyel Pinto and Eric Reed for Ryan Church :whistle Oh hell yeah, but Bowden's not stupid..... or is he? :mischief2 I'd even consider sweetening the deal with something a little more than Pinto perhaps. Seriously though if we have to give up Scott Olsen, Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez, Yusmeiro Petit for Joey Gathright I would much rather give it up for Ryan Church. Except for speed and hype he is much better than Joey Gathright in just about everything statistical category and projects for more. I have said this before and I'll say it again. I think we can land Ryan Church for a package of 2/3 Travis Bowyer, Adam Bostick, Renyel Pinto.

We're not going to get Ryan Church. Just thought I'd get that out of the way. While you might be right look at some facts: LF Alfonso Soriano CF ? Manager Frank Robinson likes Brandon Watson (Ryan Church wants church put is also looking at Nick Logan and Eric) RF Jose Guillen Backups- Marlon Bryd and Michael Tucker http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...topic=58364&hl= Brandon Watson went 2-for-3 with a double, two RBI and a sacrifice against the Orioles today. Watson is outhitting Ryan Church .342 to .219 so far. Church closes the gap a bit with his nine walks, but Watson actually has five in 38 at-bats. Since manager Frank Robinson clearly wanted Watson to win the starting job in center, it might be that Church will turn into trade bait for pitching help. In an interview with MLB.com, Nationals GM Jim Bowden said Ryan Church should be the favorite to claim the opening in the club's outfield. Indications are that Frank Robinson would prefer to see Brandon Watson win the job to give the team a true leadoff hitter -- you know, a guy who runs really fast the 31 percent of the time that he reaches base. Bowden has this one right; Church should be in the starting lineup against right-handers Ryan Church started in right field today and hit a two-run homer off southpaw Paul Maholm. Jim Bowden could always do something crazy (a Juan Gonzalez signing?), but Church's place in the Nationals' outfield seems more secure as a result of Jose Guillen's injury. Maybe he'll even get to play against left-handers sometimes. In 30 at-bats against them last year, he hit .367/.441/.633. The Boston Herald believes the Nationals may attempt to trade for Bronson Arroyo using either Nick Johnson or Ryan Church. Mar. 19, 2006 - 8:52 pm et Jose Guillen took part in another simulated game on Sunday morning and didn't feel any pain in his injured wrist. Guillen is set to make his spring debut. He will receive two at-bats Monday against the Dodgers. Mar. 25, 2006 - 12:59 am et Nationals GM Jim Bowden met this week with Jose Guillen's agent, Adam Katz, regarding an extension for the right fielder. Guillen, who turns 30 in May, is looking for a four- or five-year extension. Especially given his often erratic behavior, he'd be a terrible gamble for that length of time. So IMO Ryan Church is definately available. Ryan Church should have starter last year(but was lefted on the bench instead) then when I believe someone got injured the Nationals went off and traded for Preston Wilson(who is not better than Church) which leads me to believe that ain't to high on him. At 28 years of age Ryan Church is in the same boat as Williangham and is ready to have a breakout year if given the oppurtunity. Am I the only one who looked at this and actually thought it wouldn't be a bad idea for the Marlins to see what it takes to get Nook? Eric Reed Career Stats http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/eric-reed.shtml Nook Logan Career Stats http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/nook-logan.shtml I would say Eric Reed is the better player and prospect of the 2.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/ryan-church.shtml RYAN CHURCH, of Age: 26 B-T: L-L Ht: 6-1 Wt: 190 Drafted: Nevada, 2000 (14th round) Signed by: Paul Cogan (Indians) Background: Former Expos general manager Omar Minaya made one of his best trades when he acquired Church and infielder Maicer Izturis from Cleveland for lefthander Scott Stewart in January 2004. Like Admin Broadway, Church began his college career as a pitcher before hurting his arm. By learning to use the entire field and work counts better, he turned in his best offensive season in 2004. Strengths: In many ways, Church is similar to Brad Wilkerson. He has a quick, classic swing and makes consistent hard contact. Strong and athletic, he?s an average runner with a good arm. He could fill in as a center fielder in the majors but fits better in right. Weaknesses: Despite his 17 homers and .620 slugging percentage in Triple-A, Church might not have enough power to hit in the middle of the order in the majors. At 26 he?s not young for a prospect, and he didn?t exactly seize a big league job with his late-season performance. The Future: The Nationals? offseason trade for Jose Guillen decreases Church?s chances of winning a starting role. But if given the chance, he could develop into a .300 hitter with 20-25 homers a year Also rated as the best National Defense OF in the system in 2004. Out of Tavares, Gathiright and w/e might be available I think Ryan Church is the best player (though Bowden will disagree) and best fit for the Marlins. Ryan Church can play anywhere in the OF and I believe if given regular playing time he can post numbers similar or better than to those of Josh Williangham. (Note: Struggling in spring training + Bowden GM who favors atheletes he could be a goner for a very good price.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6032401947.html Looking to Add Though the Nationals are rumored to be looking at Detroit's Nook Logan as a potential center fielder -- and the Tigers have scouted the Nationals this week -- Bowden said his first preference for an addition to the team in the final week of spring training is pitching. Still, the Nationals would consider Logan or Florida's Eric Reed as a way to add more speed to the lineup. . . . Renyel Pinto and Eric Reed for Ryan Church :whistle

I don't like neither of the two but if I had to chose I would go with Joey Gathright based on talent, potential, tools. Now, knowing Tampa Bay they will ask for 2 top prospects, which is why I rather give Abercrombie, Reed and Aguila a shot first.

Reggie goes deep! 8-2 fish I would also like to say we shouldn't trade for CF yet. The thought of dealing with Tampa scares me because they will probably ask for Johnson, Olsen, Sanchez, Petit. Say no to Gathright :thumbdown

jakey is red hot. hermida infield single, cabrera double down the line, and jakey with a two run double to the right center field gap. he smoked it again. mark my words, jakey will win roy. :thumbup marlins up 5-2 I wouldn't be surprised if we score more runs this year than last. The way I see it: Cabrera is good for atleast 30 HR's Williangham 15-25 Jacobs 15-25 Hermida 15-25 Ramirez 5-15 Uggla 5-15

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-mar...ports-headlines Mismatch? The Marlins have not abandoned the notion of acquiring Tampa Bay center fielder Joey Gathright, but the two teams are having trouble matching up. The Devil Rays are believed to have requested two of the Marlins' premium pitching prospects, more than the Marlins have offered. Houston center fielder Willy Taveras also is being monitored. He could become available if Jeff Bagwell proves healthy enough to play first base. It would move Lance Berkman back to the outfield and make Taveras expendable, particularly for young, major league-ready pitching. I hope you all know how I feel about Joey Gathright already.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:H1PRSm...k&cd=2&ie=UTF-8 http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:EpxwC4...k&cd=4&ie=UTF-8 This site has him listed at being 20. http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/...an.jsp?c_id=fla Yet MLB.com has him listed at being 23 with a totally different date of birth from this other link Yet look what MLB writer Joe Frisaro writes. On the move: Carlos Martinez is a 20-year-old from Caracas, Venezuela, with a 96 mph fastball, a split-finger fastball, slider and two-seam fastball. The right-hander has hung around big-league camp longer than some might have suspected, based on his inexperience. Yet, he has shown promise and has the makings of a future closer. Signed as a non-drafted free agent in 2000, Martinez opened last season at Class A Jupiter, logging 22 saves and striking out 65 in 60 2/3 innings. He saw brief action in Double-A, and he made two appearances at Triple-A Albuquerque. Same can be said with Baseball America. Carlos Martinez, rhp, Marlins Born: May 26, 1982. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-2. Wt.: 170. Signed: Venezuela, 2004. Signed by: Cesar Santiago. Martinez made tremendous strides in his first crack at high Class A last year. He showed a long, loose, easy three-quarters delivery reminiscent of Julian Tavarez and the mindset to close games. He began the year in a funk but took off after extensive bullpen work with Jupiter pitching coach Reid Cornelius and minor league pitching coordinator Wayne Rosenthal. Once he got rolling, Martinez showed good arm speed and a 90-92 mph fastball with heavy sink. His four-seamer topped out at 95 mph and his slider showed great improvement as well. He was dominant for long stretches after taking over the closer role in mid-May. At times he tends to drop his arm slot, causing his stuff to flatten out. Adding strength to his thin frame is another priority. He projects more as a set-up man than a closer, but he has the confidence to do either job. Martinez figures to begin the year at Double-A Carolina, where he again will be among the youngest pitchers in his league Know baseball Cube has his stats and says he's Domincan. http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:UD6ZMa...k&cd=6&ie=UTF-8 What to belief?

Beinfest pleased with young players With pitching as foundation, GM aims to build another winner By Joe Frisaro / MLB.com Admin Beinfest, with manager Joe Girardi, has been impressed with the play of young shortstops Hanley Ramirez and Robert Andino this spring. (Alan Diaz/AP) Related Links JUPITER, Fla. -- Marlins general manager Admin Beinfest knows something about building winning teams. Respected around the league for being crafty and creative, Beinfest has demonstrated in the past that making bold moves can pan out. Some of his more daring deals landed Dontrelle Willis, Juan Pierre, Juan Encarnacion, Jeff Conine, Carl Pavano and Paul Lo Duca. With the organization now on a limited budget, Beinfest was asked to dramatically scale back payroll while again looking to find pieces to build upon for the future. Although the names have changed from the past few seasons, Beinfest's belief that teams win with pitching remains the same. Through trades and draft picks, the Marlins feel they have a collection of young arms to give themselves a strong shot of contending in the near future. It just may take a little while for the talent to flourish. "If you believe in our theory that pitching wins, and you have to have to pitching in order to give yourself a chance to win, [the outlook is bright]," Beinfest said. "It sets the tone early in every game. I think we've made great strides putting together what could be a championship-quality pitching staff in the future. "Will there be changes along the way? Absolutely. There will be injuries and some changes, but we're really happy with the pitching. We think it's vital to short- and long-term success, and we'll build from there." The Marlins have yet to set their rotation, claiming only Willis, the Opening Day starter, is a lock. Veteran Brian Moehler is a pretty strong choice for a spot, as is second-year left-hander Jason Vargas. Sergio Mitre, acquired from the Cubs as part of the Pierre deal, has more big-league seasoning than the other candidates. Rounding out the field are rookies Josh Johnson, Scott Olsen and Ricky Nolasco, another former Cub. When Spring Training began, the field for starting pitching jobs was about 10-12. Now it's down to seven vying for five places. "So much attention goes to the pitching, because so many of the big trades centered around pitching," Beinfest said. "There is balance here. You don't want to overstate the impressions now, because the regular season is when it counts. Looking at things in a vacuum here in Spring Training, these guys have done a wonderful job." In assessing camp, Beinfest feels the organization is well positioned at shortstop, with Hanley Ramirez and Robert Andino both turning heads. "I think we have two very impressive young shortstops," Beinfest said. "Andino and Ramirez have been outstanding. They are well above average defensively. Both are very gifted in different ways. Hanley has a little bit more power. Both can do a lot of things. That's an asset to the organization." Right fielder Jeremy Hermida hasn't posted great numbers yet, but he has all the skills to be a future star. And Josh Willingham, who homered in Wednesday's win over the Orioles, has made tremendous strides in winning the starting catcher job. While Willingham continues making progress defensively, he still may be asked to play left field down the line. Regarding how the catcher spot winds up, Beinfest said it will go down to the last few days of camp. Manager Joe Girardi has liked what he's seen from Willingham, Miguel Olivo and Matt Treanor. "We'll see -- no final decisions have been made," Beinfest said. "The main thing for Josh is we want his bat in the lineup. Not to speak for Joe, but he's been impressed with all three catchers -- Treanor, Willingham and Olivo. They've all done a nice job working with the pitchers. We'll see how it goes." An area where the club would like to upgrade is the outfield. Center field and left field are areas the team is considering trade options. But the Marlins are reluctant to deal away pitching unless it gets high value in return. Complicating possible deals are budget limitations. Basically, the Marlins are weighing deals for players with little to no big-league service time. In the meantime, Reggie Abercrombie, Chris Aguila and Eric Reed are battling for those two outfield spots. "We know there is an outfield challenge," Beinfest said. "That hasn't really changed from the winter. We're going to continue to look at it and work on it. "But guys like Abercrombie have been given an opportunity, and they've stepped up. That's what you're looking for in camp, and then we'll adjust from there Notes: Nolasco embraces change Former Minor League starter may move to 'pen this spring By Joe Frisaro / MLB.com Ricky Nolasco has appeared in three Grapefruit League games, including two starts, and he hasn't allowed a run in 8 2/3 innings. (Pablo Martinez Monsivais/AP) Marlins Headlines JUPITER, Fla. -- In 101 Minor League games, Ricky Nolasco made 100 starts. But the right-hander's fastest path to the big leagues may be coming out of the bullpen. Since Spring Training began, Marlins management has not ruled out converting a projected starter or two to a reliever. A few days ago, the club informed Nolasco that they wanted to see him throw out of the 'pen. The 23-year-old is embracing the opportunity. "I'm just taking it as a positive," Nolasco said. "Whatever they feel is best for me to be slotted at -- I'm up for anything. [i'll do] whatever they feel is best for the team to help contribute and win ballgames." Nolasco was scheduled to throw in relief on Thursday, but the game against the Mets was rained out. Now, he is slated to travel with the club to Vero Beach on Friday, where he is in line to throw an inning of relief in the 7:05 p.m. ET game against the Dodgers. The potential move out of the rotation is no reflection on Nolasco's performance. If anything, it is a compliment, because he's thrown well and the team is in the process of piecing together its relief corps. Nolasco has appeared in three Grapefruit League games, with two starts, and he hasn't allowed a run in 8 2/3 innings. In those contests, he's surrendered four hits, struck out five, while walking three. Last Sunday, he gave up one run in 3 2/3 innings in a Triple-A game against the Mets. Obtained from the Cubs as part of the Juan Pierre trade, Nolasco says his arm bounces back quickly after starts, and he doesn't need an prolonged period of time warming up. "The day after I start, and throw 100 pitches, I'm out there long-tossing," Nolasco said. "I feel I recover well." Nolasco would fit the mold as a reliever because he's throws strikes and doesn't walk many batters. Speaking generally, manager Joe Girardi says players will need to be flexible. "The only way to find out a guy's certain role is to try it out," Girardi said. "That's something [Nolasco] will have to learn. I'm not saying he won't start the season as a starter. I'm not saying he's going to make the team. What I'm saying is we need flexibility. "He and some other guys are going to have to adjust. It's just because, when you're talking about the team, it's not only what role you're suited for, but it's what's best for the club." Rainout rescheduling: Thursday's rainout has shuffled the Marlins' pitching order for Friday. Brian Moehler, who was supposed to face the Mets on Thursday, will now pitch on Friday in a Class A game on a back field at Roger Dean Stadium. The altered pitching schedule now has Moehler, Chris Resop, Carlos Martinez and Nate Bump pitching in Jupiter. Josh Willingham and Tom Wilson will catch in the Minor League game. In Friday's Grapefruit League game against the Dodgers at Vero Beach, Dontrelle Willis will start. Nolasco, Randy Messenger, Kerry Ligtenberg and Joe Borowski will see action in relief. Miguel Olivo and Matt Treanor are the two catchers making the trip. Rotation options: Unsure of who the final five starters will be on the Opening Day roster, Girardi on Thursday noted the solution may be to carry six starters. That doesn't mean the club will go with a six-man rotation, but because so many young arms are in camp, the team is thinking about carrying an extra starter who could be used in long relief and spot starts. With so many young pitchers, the team is figuring out ways to protect the starters from being overworked. "We're going to have innings for all our starters, whether we carry 11 or 12 pitchers," Girardi said. An extra starter on staff offers the alternative to have a starter who may be struggling skip a turn in the rotation, rather than being optioned to the Minor Leagues. Megrew's status: Left-handed reliever Michael Megrew has been bothered by a impingement in the back of his throwing shoulder, and he doubts he will be able to pitch off the mound by the time Spring Training ends. As a Rule 5 Draft pickup, time is crucial for Megrew. With Rule 5 choices, they have to make the team or be offered back to their original club, assuming they clear waivers. In December, the Marlins selected Megrew out of the Dodgers system. Rebounding from Tommy John surgery, the left-hander has not thrown in the Grapefruit League this spring. Even though Megrew hasn't thrown much this spring, he still could end up as a Marlin. The Marlins could place him on the disabled list, allowing him time to recover to get a better look at him. Rule 5 players must spend 90 days of active service with the team that selected them, or be awarded back to their original team, should they clear waivers. Even if Megrew is physically unable to pitch this season, he could still be placed on the disabled list for the entire season, but some time in 2007 he still would have to spend 90 days of active service with the Marlins. Coming up: On Friday, Willis will pitch for the first time in a Grapefruit League game since returning from the World Baseball Classic. The D-Train will make the 7:05 p.m. ET start at Vero Beach against the Dodgers, who will go with Derek Lowe.

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I never said you believed anything bad/negative about Chris Young. How can I make up something that has never been said? Irrelevant, as usual I believe you said this "I think you severely overrate our own prospects, and don't give fair credit to other teams players that are not future superstars, like a Granderson or a Chris Young" That is supposed to mean future superstars like Granderson or Young. So I wasn't bad mouthing you. It's confusion if anything. My friend I believe I was wrong and you proved it here, im sorry should have done more research and not relied soley on memory. Still the Dbacks essentially traded Javier Vazquez for Chris Young(who I like) and each team wins(imo). I like both players alot. One can argue maybe they like Ryan Sweeny more and that think Brain Anderosn is more of a sure thing than Chris Young(though I would take my chances with young, I see him as a better version of Mike Cameron) At the time both Garland and Contreras where in the last year of there contracts. Since then they have signed Jon Garland to a worse contract than Vazquez. (Personally I think thats what Vazquez is worth though.) Then they still have the option of trading Jose Contreras and moving Brandon McCarthy back to the rotation. Rumor I hear is Jose Contreras for either Troy Patton or Jason Hirsh and another player if Roger Clemens doesn't sign or retires I fully admit, I am a 100% Ken Williams hater. I like Reggie Abercrombie better then I like Ken Williams. But regardless, yes Garland deal was stupid, I have not seen Contreras rumors but I hope for Ken Williams intelligence he does trade one of the starters for a young piece, and Chris Young + saving money is worth more then Javier Vazquez + losing money by itself. Especially when comparable pitchers were on free agency for the ChiSox. We don't need to go over the list - I agree with Washburn always overrated, Morris has lingering injuries and it not the pitcher he was even if he is still mildly effective, etc - but they are all comparable right now at minimum, and speaking of not the pitcher you once were, Jazy Vazquez? Come on. He was lights out, then went kerplunk. They could have fixed their SP depth and not given up Young, that's all I'm saying. It's going to be a fatal trade for the White Sox in a few years unless Javy gets them a second WS in 06 or 07. Considering the contracts dished out the last few offseasons and Loaiza, even with the splits which I am aware of, he is probably underpaid or priced perfectly for how the other deals went down. Pitching is at a premium these days, even league average ERA. He'll have a low-mid 4 era over 200 IP for Oakland, just like Arroyo! 3/4 type dude. Nothing special, but everyone loves to hate him and he does his thing. So needless today so say you don't think like Billy Beane in regrads to "I do best for our team and so be it if it helps another as well" I personally don't care if there or we are division rivals if I think I got the better end of a deal I pull the trigger. But what can I say we are very much different Because with your reasoning Johnson is just a #3 and we already have Nolasco, Petit, Sanchez, Olsen, Gaby Hernandez(you know him as Zeus) and a million other pitchers Washington is in a very unique situation because they are a sleeping giant when they get that stadium, and will be able to add massive payroll. They also have a few nice building block pieces with Zimmerman, N. Johnson, Patterson, Cordero, etc. I have no problem stripping the Mets farm system so they are a bust come 2008, but Washington is in rebuilding mode with us, has a higher potential for breaking out because they can sign people and not just do it all in house, and Johnson helps them a lot more then Church (who would be better then the 3 non Hermida OF we have now, but still a stopgap) helps us longterm. I've never said Gaby is Zeus, but he's a nice young pitcher. How come? its not like im asking you to bet your rent money, kids college money?or even asking you to stop posting here, its just a friendly bet. What does it show to the public and everyone else who reads this? 4)Party pooper laugh.gif The only thing I want from you is to be sure about yourself and not pull another Olsen. I mean if you are gonna spend so much time going back and forth arging something with someone atleast back it up by showing how much you believe in your abilities. The correct answers are bolded. And you make it seem like opinions are unmalleable and don't change on situations. Because I am scared of Anibal's mechanics or volatile delivery, that can't change the potential SP landscape of the Marlins? What if Anibal has to be a RP? If our SP prospects don't turn into SP, the ones we have become that much more valuable, especially the better ones like Olsen, and that's why now I would hold onto Olsen versus before (and before I said we needed a throw in with Gathright to be fair. It wasn't a 1-1). Of course, if I had a front office job and all I did was scout baseball players, I would know this about Anibal and have a better understanding of longterm projections of players, but I'm sorry I now have 'discovered' new information (to me) about Anibal that shows a different perspective. I never saw anything about Anibal as a RP before a month ago. Never on these boards, but regardless. Like I said, news like this, even if it's wrong and there is only uncertainty involved, majorly impacts organizational needs and Olsen's value rises to the Marlins. This is also why, I would not trade for a corner OF at this time because if you saw the thread I started today from BP, while the Marlins like Willingham's defense, outsiders see him as a disaster still and that LF might be his future home. What if Nolasco never moves out of the pen? I don't think that happens, but what if? These things matter, and as situations change, opinions change. I thought Javy Vazquez was a 1/2 starter in 2003. Things change. Actually want to hear something funny, in some fantasy league, I drafted him in the first round of a fantasy baseball draft because I was expecting huge things in NY. Whoops. Okay Lou everything you just said is fair enough and if it ends here im down with this thread. Are we done here? is the cold war over?

lol... how this went from Josh Willingham to Paul Byrd's contract is beyond me :lol !!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said you believed anything bad/negative about Chris Young. How can I make up something that has never been said? Irrelevant, as usual I believe you said this "I think you severely overrate our own prospects, and don't give fair credit to other teams players that are not future superstars, like a Granderson or a Chris Young" Javy Vazquez $11.5 million 2006, $12.5 million 2007 ($24 million combined) $5 million from Arizona, (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5163266) Chris Young for 6 seasons, 3 of which will be very cheap. El Duque $4.5 million 2006 Vizcaino $1.75 million 2006 The White Sox gained $12.75 million in salary and Javy Vazquez for 2 seasons. They are a contender. The Diamondbacks lost $12.75 million in salary, got two pitchers for 2006, and most importantly, got Chris Young. The Diamondbacks are not a contender. My friend I believe I was wrong and you proved it here, im sorry should have done more research and not relied soley on memory. Still the Dbacks essentially traded Javier Vazquez for Chris Young(who I like) and each team wins(imo). I like both players alot. One can argue maybe they like Ryan Sweeny more and that think Brain Anderosn is more of a sure thing than Chris Young(though I would take my chances with young, I see him as a better version of Mike Cameron) The White Sox gained a substantial amount of salary, a pitcher that is overpriced for his abilities (see below), did not need because of McCarthy, and gave up Chris Young. If at all, this helps Chicago right now, because it gives them a 6th SP waiting in McCarthy for if anyone gets injured. This only helps the White Sox in the short term. And that's what happens when you are contending, you overspend.[/quote] At the time both Garland and Contreras where in the last year of there contracts. Since then they have signed Jon Garland to a worse contract than Vazquez. (Personally I think thats what Vazquez is worth though.) Then they still have the option of trading Jose Contreras and moving Brandon McCarthy back to the rotation. Rumor I hear is Jose Contreras for either Troy Patton or Jason Hirsh and another player if Roger Clemens doesn't sign or retires Javy Vazquez, 2/$19, average salary $9.5 million, 2005 era 4.42, career era 4.28 Paul Byrd, 2/$14.5, average salary $ 7.25 million, 2005 era 3.74, career era 4.21 Esteban Loaiza, 3/$21.3, average salary, $7.1 million, 2005 era 3.77, career era 4.60 Matt Morris, 3/$27, average salary $9 million, 2005 era 4.11, career era 3.61 Jarrod Washburn, 4/$37.5, average salary $9.37 million, 2005 era 3.20, career era 3.93 Jeff Weaver, 1/$8.4 million, 2005 era 4.22, career era 4.44 Jason Johnson, 2/$4 million, average salary $2 million, 2005 era 4.54, career era 4.88 Scott Elarton, 2/$8 million, average salary $ 4 million, 2005 era 4.61, career era 5.10 This is why the White Sox are stupid. They gave up Chris Young, which is ludicrous!, to get a pitcher that they could easily have found in free agency. Every pitcher on this list is arguably as good or better then Vazquez besides those last two, and those are obviously the cheapos of the group. Indians sign Bryd to a great deal I see him as a #3 Esteban Loiaza has only really had one really good year and while he had decent # last year(ball park) look at his splits http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:WZ9DWF...k&cd=3&ie=UTF-8 plus I don't think the white sox where interested since they already soured on him. I see him as a maybe #4 this year and a #5 behind Harden, Zito, Haren, Blanton. Matt Morris has had many arm problems in recent years and is not the pitcher he once was. Expect good # in 2006 though (Not as good as Schidmt, Cain, Lowry) I would say he a solid #4 on good team now and days Jarrod Washburn greatly overrated and definately not worth what he is getting. :thumbdown Jeff Weaver was looking for a big long term contract at the the time and got left settling for one year with an option. Not better than Javier Vazquez either. Not even gonna talk about Johnson and Elarton. I think Javier Vazquez is better than any of those pitchers and in some cases it isn't even close. And I'm not betting you with Arroyo. I don't know what you are trying to prove, but I think Arroyo will have a low-mid 4 era next year and be a solid mid rotation pitcher. I have better things to do then make retarded bets. I don't want anything from you. I'm sure you are going to chalk up I'm scared though. boohoo. How come? its not like im asking you to bet your rent money, kids college money?or even asking you to stop posting here, its just a friendly bet. What does it show to the public and everyone else who reads this? well you either 1)You are wrong about Arroyo and are to hard headed to admit it 2)Don't have confidence in your ability, so why I should I believe whta this guy opinion's? 3)Or 3 like you said you are just afraid. Which is sad because its like im gonna pull a Freddy Kruger and get you as you type or anything 4)Party pooper :lol The only thing I want from you is to be sure about yourself and not pull another Olsen. I mean if you are gonna spend so much time going back and forth arging something with someone atleast back it up by showing how much you believe in your abilities. What do other people's opinions, or quantity, have anything to do with you? A minority viewpoint could easily be the correct one. That point is irrelevant. Again me thinks if you continuely come here with this believe I think you are wasting your time because I continuely come here to prove why I believe what I believe already knowing im not gonna convince you(I know even if I miraculously happen to convince you in as maybe the case with Olsen you will never let me or anybody know that). My job here is to provide my facts you state yours and let the readers decide for themselves who has the better one's. While exhausting im willing to continue as long as needed I do not want to trade Josh Johnson to a division rival that has no SP depth past their top 2 guys. If it's not one of the SP prospects, sure. So needless today so say you don't think like Billy Beane in regrads to "I do best for our team and so be it if it helps another as well" I personally don't care if there or we are division rivals if I think I got the better end of a deal I pull the trigger. But what can I say we are very much different Because with your reasoning Johnson is just a #3 and we already have Nolasco, Petit, Sanchez, Olsen, Gaby Hernandez(you know him as Zeus) and a million other pitchers What do other people's opinions, or quantity, have anything to do with you? A minority viewpoint could easily be the correct one. That point is irrelevant.

Concering the Vazquez trade, Arizona severely overspent on Vazquez. Chris Young is going to be awesome. They are trying to win right now in 2006, and don't care about the future. Their window is expiring shortly. They are desperate to win another one this year before superior organizations in Cleveland, Minnesota, and Detroit really start blossoming into great ball clubs. Cleveland already has - and will win the division, but I can't argue with Chicago going for it. A better move would have been to simply pitch McCarthy, and keep Young to build the future around him, Konerko, and Iguchi. Ken Williams is a terrible GM, that's the only explanation to this. He got really lucky in 05 with strikeouts turning into singles, every pitcher overachieving, etc. All the cards are not going to fall into place for them next year. In 3 years, ChiSox fans are going to be devastated that they didn't win another World Series, and that Chris Young is a monster in Arizona (and better then Brian Anderson), where all they have is a $10 million a year mid rotation starter who strikes out a lot of people. This was a terrible longterm move for the White Sox, but that is the price you pay when you think you are a contender. Im guessing you meant the White Sox severely overspent on Vazquez. Lets see... The White Sox gave up Chris Young (who I am high on and never have said anything bad/negative but like usual you are makings things up saying I said this and that which I never did), Orlando Hernandez who is injury prone and has a base salary of 4.625 (can make an additional 2 million in incentives), and a average reliever in Luis Vizcaino. In return the White Sox got Vazquez for either 2y/14 million or 2/16(Dbacks payed portion of Vazquez contract) and also got the Dbacks to take Hernandez and Vizcaino contracts which weren't exactly bargins. So essentially the White Sox got a front of rotation proven starter (2/3 starter my opinion) for what guys in the open market like Milton, Benson get. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/051222vasquez.html http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2258626 Concerning Arroyo's move to Cincy and NL central, and Fenway isn't an offensive ballpark and the AL East isn't a much stronger offensive division (and league overall) then the NL? Come on. I think these factors benefit Arroyo improving - which I'm not arguing, I'm just saying he is a 3/4 starter - rather then assume he's going to get worse playing in a launching pad. He already was playing in a launching pad. You do not know if Johnson is better then any Reds starter. He might have more long term potential, but he is not proven. Arroyo makes more sense to the Reds. This trade makes both teams better. It's not one sided to the Red Sox. The Reds have a smart new GM, he knows what he is doing. Look I don't feel like arguing this no more but if we must put your money where your mouth is and make a bet with me regarding Arroyo. Is ay Arroyo doens't post and ERA below 4.50 next year if he qualifies for the ERA title as a starter. AL or NL cincy is a worst pitchers ball park than Fenway and the fact that he is a junk ball pitcher who strikes out few batters will hurt him. If I lose the bet I'll do w/e you like now if I win you start using im userputa or cubanputa as your username. If you chicken out and you still want to argue this go here http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...showtopic=58522 I do think Castillo should have batted # 1. And you don't bat Hermida (or Willingham) # 1 this season because of their slugging and the Marlins lack of options in the power department. You don't want one of your 2-3 best power hitters on the team batting 'behind' the pitcher in the # 1 spot. This is not creating base runners to take advantage of the slugging. You are wasting their extra base hits, which create runs, with a low OBP hitter in front of them. OBP is important, but it's not like you exclusively build lineups around it. It would be stupid to put any of the 4 Marlins bashers in the top spot. Whoever is the best OBP threat between Hanley, Uggla, Abercrombie, and Aguila, if those are the other starters, needs to bat leadoff. My guess is Hanley or Aguila. Brady Anderson had a real hitter in front of him, even if it was a 9 hole hitter, and the Orioles had other guys they could put in the middle with Ripken and Belle. Sizemore is not a leadoff hitter in the NL, neither is Delucci. And above is the reason for it, the pitcher bats 9th and you waste their slugging Atleast we agree here. With Soriano now in LF and Watson who is Frank favor to start in CF(who just happens to be beating Ryan Church as well) why not trade for Ryan Church? It has been said he could become trade bait in a week or 2 since the National have Guillen(who is almost ready), Soriano, Guillen, Bryd. I would take him over Gathright anyday of the week and I will be willing to trade Josh Johnson for him if we had to though I don't even think it will cost that much. And that's fine. I disagree on how you value baseball prospects, and that's it! I think you severely overrate our own prospects, and don't give fair credit to other teams players that are not future superstars, like a Granderson or a Chris Young. Hitters are much more projectable then pitchers, and the good ones are worth much more as prospects then comparable 30-50th ranked BA pitchers. Until you get to the # 1 prospect class - Beckett, Prior, King Felix - I would always take a comparable hitting prospect versus a comparable pitching prospect, because the hitter has the much better chance of panning out. As always, I think Johnson or Nolasco is very comparable in value to Gathright, and I'll side with the hitter, especially considering our organizational needs. It's worth the risk. I know you disagree. I would trade Gaby for Gathright right now too, but I think Tampa wants a player more advanced and closer to MLB ready which is the only reason I did not include him in the previous reply. Thats fine as I don't agree with you either on how you value players. I don't think I overrate our prospects and im very high on Chris Young though not Granderson. I would also trade Gaby Hernandez for Gathright right now and even add a Kensing if needed.

I mentioned Vazquez because you said Arroyo is a 5th starting pitcher. I said he's not, and that is an analogy on the comparitive depth of Bos-ChiSox-Oak SP depth to show just how stupid your comments about Arroyo are. Arroyo might be the # 5 for Boston, but that doesn't mean he isn't a 3/4 in terms of value. And David Wells would be gone, if SD or LAD would have given up anything for him. Bronson is easily, EASILY, a mid rotation starter Career ERA Javier Vazquez 4.28 (4.42 2006) Bronson Arroyo 4.59 (4.52 2006) But Vazquez, is a # 2/3, and Arroyo is a # 5. Extrapolate runs allowed over 200 IP, Vazquez gives up 95 runs a season, and Arroyo 102. Seven runs is the differance between a 2/3 starter and a 5 starter for you. Seven runs. An extra run once a month. Awesome dude. You specifically argue Arroyo is bad because he gives up more hits then innings. Vazquez gave up 223 hits in 216 IP last year. Doh! Batters batting against these two pitchers in 2006. Vazquez .759 OPS, Arroyo a .758 OPS. This is identical. You must be a fantasy baseball player, because the only place in the planet where Vazquez is a # 2 starter is there because of his K numbers. Sure, I would take Javy over Arroyo anyday (I do not believe this is the argument but he exhibits more upside and is proven as a SP as well), but you are on a crack pipe if you think Arroyo is bad and not a 3/4. He has proven he can eat 200 IP, and he has very simliar production to Vazquez despite whatever K numbers you bring up. I'm not saying K numbers aren't important, I love high K/9 pitchers, but if you get the job done without them and prove it over a lot of innings, so what? Arroyo gets the job done, that is what matters. You also look down on Arroyo because he has "Carlos Silva" (also a 3/4 starter) control to keep his whip down. Besides the fact Silva is on another planet with his control, when did having plus control turn into a negative thing at trying to explain Arroyo's whip? Your research is brutal. You are out of your mind if you think Arroyo isn't a 3/4 starter. He will have an era in the low 4's next year. I don't understand how you hate on such random players just because they don't K people, or they don't hit HR (Gathright). That doesn't mean they are bad baseball players. Starting Wily Mo Pena against RHP is suicide, you realize that right? And Johnson becomes the Reds third best prospect. Guess what, Arroyo becomes their second best pitcher (Harang), and he is proven while Johnson is not. It was a great trade both ways. Reds get an incredibly cheap (3/$11) pitcher for 3 seasons, and the Sox get a LHP bashing OF to platoon with Nixon in RF. If the Reds thought Pena was any good and would ever hit RHP/stop whiffing/start walking/start playing defense, they never would have traded him. He is on a perfect team now with a RHP platoon mate. This was a great trade both ways. Johnson does not get you Pena if they wanted him. Can we just drop the Red/Red Sox trade and come back in July and keep this focused on the Marlins. This is not the place to do this, and I really don't want to discuss this. I won't forget, I know you won't with your psychotic (I appreciate the dedication though) rummaging through old threads. If Arroyo bombs, and Wily Mo hits RHP. I'll be wrong. We shall see. Depth chart or no depth chart Arroyo has always only been a swing man/middle reliver who got starts because of injuries. My bad when he was looked as a starter by Pirates he ended up failing miserably and ended up getting released which is why he ended up with Boston in the first place. Anyways that's irrelevant but wanted to throw it out there because he's going back to the NL central again this year and to a drastic hitters home park. Why is Javier Vazquez career ERA 4.28 and Arroyo 4.59 but he is considered a 2/3 starter? Well for one Vazquez has been in the majors full time since 1998 and has pitched against the other teams top 3 starters consistently since 2000(most of the times Ace) and is a true power pitcher who can dominate hiiters. Hey Lou guess who Javier Vazquez compares most closely through age 28? Brad Radke, look at the other pitchers Vazquez is similar to (good read) http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/vazquja01.shtml Yet now look at Bronson Arroyo http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/arroybr01.shtml If you still have questions why Javier Vazquez is a 2/3 ask the White Sox front office who gave up someone much better than Scott Olsen or any of our pitchers(except Willis) in OF Chris Young who is a top 20-30 prospect. You talk about how David Wells would have gone to SD or La is they would have given up anything of value? I remember reading from Red Sox fan once in a particular board that on some show (Wei something like) Gammons said that the Dodgers have called and the Red Sox said that they wanted Edwin Jackson and Jonathan Broxton. I don't know about you but thats to much for Wells. Maybe it just shows that they didn't want to trade him because then that would mean just maybe Arroyo would have to go back into the rotation. Now as for the Reds guess what? Josh Johnson is also better than Milton, Williams, Clausson which means he 2 would have been there 2 best starter. Arroyo incredibly cheap at 3 years/ 11 million? well Johnson is cheaper and you have more options and potential with him. But like you said I won't forget if Arroyo bombs. We shall see. Red Sox got a steal. First .20 increase? Maybe you meant 20 more SB, with far less CS percentage wise. Gathright is going to out OBP both of them right away 35-50 points (25+ times on base over the year at minimum), and he exhibits the most upside of the bunch to improve. Right like he has shown so far in spring training right? so I don't know how you know this can happen unless.....you happen to be Ms.Cleo :o P.S Reggie Abercrombie exhibits the most upside of the bunch just solely on physical tools he has. Though he is unlikely to ever reach it. I don't believe you are totally stupid, but you make it seem like there isn't a gap between these guys offensively. There is a tremendous gap, now and for the future. Abercrombie is hitting the ball out of his mind right now, but do you honestly think he is going to keep it up? He and Reed have downright awful plate discipline, will probably never hit much higher then .250 and won't walk much more then 30 times a year, and specifically with Abercrombie, I doubt he approaches 25+ HR hitting at that low of a level against MLB pitching which would be the only variable in determining if he could match Gathright's offensive output. Gathright's minor league track records suggests he could be a .290+ hitter, with 50+ walks, emerging gap power, and a ridiculous quantity of steals at a fabulous percentage. Whatever defense you get with Reed, or pop from Abercrombie, doesn't outweight how much better of a player Gathright is. He is a legitimate prospect and future starting player, those other two you cross your fingers and hope you can get through 2006. Throw Dan Uggla into this category also. It seems like im getting to you because you or you know that you will eventually be proven wrong because you have a need to call me stupid and a jerk. Now I don't think he is gonna keep it up and have always stated that but who is to say he won't? it won't hurt us or anything to put him in LF/Cf and prove us all wrong. Gathright fabulous percentage is now 5/4 during spring training so it seems he is not only struggling with the bat. Maybe all the muscle he has added has slown him and his swing? we shall see.... What do other people's opinions, or quantity, have anything to do with you? A minority viewpoint could easily be the correct one. That point is irrelevant. And no you haven't shown Gathright is a stopgap, far from it actual. Here is the only anti-Gathright thing you've typed in this thread, besides random hearsay, that tries to compare the value of Gathright versus anything. "After doing research this is what I found out. Gathright has a .751 and Reggie a .721 like you said but Reed OPS is not .703 but .719. Both Reed and Abercrombie beat Gathright in SLG. (Reed .368, Gathright .361 not identical sorry) Yet Gathright has around 700 less at bats than Reed and 1200 less at bats than Abercrombie in the minors." This just makes no sense at all when it comes down to it. Gathright - as a non power hitter where Reggie is - out OPS's those two at higher levels of competition in the minors, progressed through the minors faster then both which explains the less AB (statistically speaking, they all have enough of an AB sample size where fluctuations in slugging would be exposed, rendering whatever point you were thinking of in the validity of Gathright's low slugging moot. It is not over or under represented, it is what it is. btw, if you take out Gathright's single A years, his slugging shoots to around .390 between AA/AAA), and you don't think that is notable. OBP is MUCH more important then slugging, and more of Gathright's OPS, compared to Reed/Abercrombie, is composed of that versus slugging. That's a huge advantage for Gathright. Likewise, OPS does not measure their SB totals, where Gathright is extremely productive and bumps him up even further over those two. Gathright could be a force at the top of the order as a .290/.340/.380, 55/20SB, in a year or two with room to grow on all those totals. That player is not a stopgap, that is a good player you bring in to build around Cabrera, Hermida, and Hanley. You are so stuck up on verbage. Complimentary doesn't mean a player you only bring in to contend with. It just means it isn't your core. Posednik isn't in the White Sox core, that is Konerko, Thome, and Iguchi, but he helps them in his role. Gathright far and away helps this franchise on all levels, and is light years better then anything we have now or for the future. Like I keep saying, the only question is not if Gathright improves this club, he is a huge upgrade, the only discussion should be What pitcher is he worth? As I keep saying, I think it's Johnson or Nolasco. I think a potential Juan Pierreish force at the top of the order is worth a potential # 3 starter - when we have 4 pitchers (Olsen, Petit, Anibal, and Vargas), who all profile higher. Let alone whoever is not traded with those 2 if a deal goes down will still be able to help the team. This is a smart trade both ways, considering TB's SP needs and OF depth. If they want Olsen, screw'em! We can wait unless they want to talk about Dukes. Also, I am starting to notice you have a difficulty in translating ratios. The differance between a .368 and .361 slugging is 3-4 TB over 600+ AB. Using other stats you have not realized there is a 7 run differance between Vazquez and Arroyo's ERA over 200 IP (or you just ignored that one in favor of K numbers), and a .20 overall differance in something (I can't figure out where you pulled that from. I'm guessing it's OPS) between Gathright and Reed/Abercrombie. 3-4 TB, or 7 runs by a pitcher, over the course of 200 IP is not very statistically significant. If it was 30 TB or 14 runs, now we see a clear production advantage that couldn't be accounted for by an extra 2-4 hits over the course of a season. Using more ratios from this post to show what an important differance is, Gathright's OBP differance between Reed/Abercrombie - producing atleast 25 less outs over the course of the season - is extremely significant. Outs are the most valuable commodity you have, and this would vastly upgrade the Marlins offense by itself. Why I minority point can actually be correct the odds are always againt it. The only reason Gathright has a highre OPS than Reggie is because he makes more consistent contact and Reggie has played in pitchers ball park basically during his whole minor league career. If not it wouldn't even be close. ex Spring Training. Now if you value OBP more then I guess you believe Castillo was a superior leadoff(I have always believe that) to Pierre. Irrelevent anyways. But why not put Jeremy Hermida there in 2006 and only for 2006 he can be are poor man or what ever version you like of Brady Anderson? because the difference between Hermida - Gathright I believe will be the same if not greater than Reed - Gathright. By the way. Complimentary- 1) Expressing, using, or resembling a compliment: a concert that received complimentary reviews. 2) Given free to repay a favor or as an act of courtesy: complimentary copies of the new book. Complementary- 1)Forming or serving as a complement; completing. 2)Supplying mutual needs or offsetting mutual lacks. How are we gonna argee what complementary is when we don't even agree how it is spelled. So what pitcher is he worth! Jesus Christ! How about this, scenario A, B, and C A - Gathright becomes the new Juan Pierre. Slightly less OBP, a little more slugging, better sb%, and better defense that is league average because of his range. .300/.350/.400 60/20 SB kind of line annually. What pitcher is Gathright worth if he meets this projection? B - Gathright doesn't really improve. His BB/K rate stays relatively constant with his initial MLB stint versus his minor league record, and he produces annual lines of .280/.320/.350, 50/20 SB, with slightly below average defense C - Between the two. Never quite translates the plate discipline over, but becomes a regular. .290/.335/.375, 55/20 SB, inconsistent defensively, but is more good then bad and is considered average. I think A is a possibility, but thats if everything goes right on an offensive and defensive standpoint. This is a great baseball player, and I'd run to trade Johnson or Nolasco, potential # 3's, for him, and if this stat line was guarenteed, I would give Olsen up. This is one of the best leadoff hitters in baseball if this is Joey's future. This player makes millions in free agency and outprices the Marlins. I think B is a low chance of happening considering his minor league track record, but if it does and all he becomes is a speedy 4th OF. This is still a nice baseball player to have, and yes, in this circumstance is a stop-gap player for a future CF. Certainly not worth any of the starting pitching prospects, and a project like Bostick, or Mitre, or a RP prospect like Tankersly, would be fine value for him. This player can easily be found for cheap in free agency. I think C is maybe the fairest outlook, bridging the gaps between all the viewpoints. Maybe that high is to high, and the same goes with the low assuming he will not adjust to the bigs at all. This is still a good baseball player, is starting quality, and can help the Marlins for years. This is not worth Olsen, Anibal, Petit, or Vargas, but it's worth any of our 2nd tier guys, Johnson or Nolasco, based on the depth in our system and our CF needs. This player is not easily found on free agency, and if he makes it to free agency, will be overspent on by some franchise desperate to fill a need where the player then becomes a liability with a bad contract. I think this is a very fair Good, Bad, and Average outlook for Joey, or his FA alternatives. I think Gathright can easily become "C" and has a better chance of getting to "A" then "B" based on his track record. I could be wrong, who knows! I think we have SP depth where it's worth the risk. Like I said, I don't think Joey is a lock to become Pierre, which is why Olsen is out of the question. Those other two would be great for him. Please, seriously. Don't argue specifics. I don't have the energy to do this anymore. We can agree to disagree, but there is nothing I have seen - and it's been an exhausted amount of material at this point - that suggests Gathright does not have a good chance of becoming a solid ballplayer and is not worth a good SP prospect in trade considering what we have has an organization right now. Gathright projection A- Is worth projection Gaby Hernandez(who Im not high on but know you love because of w.h.i.p) and maybe projection Bowyer Gathright projection B- Is worth projection Bostick and projection Messenger Gathright projection C- Is worth projection Pinto and Bostick Of course you now know if you didn't before that we are probably gonna agree to disagree on player projection as well after you read this. I don't have the energy to do this anymore. Yes we can finally agree on something. Seriously though if you ever want to chat online about baseball issues or any more Gathright talk I would be more than happy to share my thoughts with you. This is exhausting but if needed I will have to suck it up and continue

Joey Gathright - OF - Devil Rays Joey Gathright was caught stealing for the fourth time this spring and picked off first base today against the Red Sox. Expectations are that the Rays will go with Joey Gathright in right field initially if they keep Aubrey Huff at third base, but although it would give them easily the game's best defensive outfield, Gathright hasn't earned the spot with a .279/.354/.326 line. He's just 5-for-9 on the basepaths, plus the pickoff, so his OBP overstates what he's doing to help the Rays on offense. Joey Gathright - OF - Devil Rays Joey Gathright is day-to-day with a shoulder injury sustained diving for a ball in the fifth inning on Tuesday. Nothing major here. "He just landed awkwardly and just kind of bothered his shoulder a little bit," manager Joe Maddon said. "From what I was told, he could have continued had we wanted him to continue." Mar. 21 - 6:05 pm et Reggi Abercrombie - OF - Marlins Reggie Abercrombie, who entered having struck out five times in his previous seven plate appearances, homered and doubled Tuesday against the Dodgers. Despite his 11/1 K/BB ratio, Abercrombie is hitting .439 in 41 at-bats. If the season started tomorrow, it looks like the Marlins would probably go with Abercrombie in center, Chris Aguila in left and Josh Willingham behind the plate. That makes Abercrombie at least a $1-$2 pick in NL-only leagues.

[CODE]Arroyo has pitched 180 and 205 IP the last two seasons with a 4.03 and 4.59 era, in an offensive ballpark, in a tough division. He was tied for 12th in the American League in quality starts last year. That's not to shabby. I [b]manage[/b] to call a pitcher like that a 3/4 starter. That's proving yourself. Just because the Red Sox have better options in Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Clement, and Wakefield (papelbon would not have been chosen to start over him. this season at least), does not mean Arroyo is bad. You think Joe Blanton and Javier Vazquez are just # 5 starters? It has nothing to do with the crazy SP depth in front of them? Your logic is brutal. Arroyo is not a superstar, but he's a fine mid rotation starter, and has a very good contract for the next 3 years for what he brings to the park. Josh Johnson has not pitched 165+ innings in a season, with a 1.26 whip. What don't you understand about that? I doubt the Marlins could have gotten Pena, assuming we wanted/needed him, for Johnson. They'd have to give up Olsen. Neither is worth him either, for the Marlins [i]needs[/i] as an organization. We don't need a LHP hitting platoon partner for Aguila in LF, that is about to be overpaid in arbitration due to HR numbers, when he has absolutely terrible plate discipline, can't play defense, and can't hit RHP[/CODE] Okay lets see... Arroyo gives up more hits than innings pitched 205/213, has a decreasing k rate(K only 100 batters in 205 innings Yikes!!!!!! an average of 4.38 per 9 inning), high era like you said, below to average stuff(average on his best days). Arroyo is a extremely hittable pitcher and the only reason his w.h.i.p is 1.30 is cause he walks few hitters much like Carlos Silva. To me and just about everyone that is a Swing man and 5 starter on average team at best. Would you be willing to bet he doesn't post an ERA below 4.50 next season? Joe Blanton realistically pitched over his head in 2005 though he is still a vety good pitcher. His stuff, second year in the league will hurt him in 2006 and in the future unless he works on a new pitch or something. I say Joe Blanton is a 3/4 As for Javier Vazquez IMO he is a 2/3. This guys K guys is a work horse goes againt the other teams best pitchers and has the stuff to back it up. I don't know why you mentioned Blanton and Vazquez because these guys are truly are truly either front of the rotation or middle of the rotation pitchers. If the Red Sox had any confidence in Arroyo as a 3/4 starter like you say they would have traded Wells. So you say you don't think the Marlins would have gotten Willy Mo pena if they traded Johnson? Well Johnson instanlty becomes there 3rd best prospect overall and 2 best pitching prospect behind Homer Bailey. Johnson would have also cost the Reds less($$$) than Arroyo, he would have likely put up the the same # in 2006 and if the Reds didn't think he was ready they could have just had the option to start him in the minors to get more work. You mention Willy Mo Pena value. Well who has more value to the Reds in the ball park they play? What they should have done is play Willy full time in LF, Griffey in CF, Kearns in RF, Freel 2B, Lopez SS, Dunn 1B, C Larue, and Encarnacion 3B. They overspent on Arroyo much like they did with Milton. Bad moves like these down show now but 2-3 years from. Just watch When have I ever said that Abercrombie is gonna gonna be better than Gathright? please find [CODE]Thanks for calling him out, but he doesn't care. He's desperate. He argues on the Rays boards last week that Josh Johnson is a better prospect then Edwin Jackson, and Rays fans throw "but he was so highly regarded" scouting reports at him from years back. He ignores those though saying, what have you done for me lately? "His head is messed up, he failed in LA. He's done." That's a very fair argument, and I would side with him on that analysis because I don't care about 19 year old Edwin anymore, I care about 22 year old Edwin and how he has progressed. BUT, when it comes to Abercrombie, BFD apparently! Let's use 3 year old reports and minimal spring training AB, while ignoring his awful last 3 years in the minors and his lack of AB over double AA, to say he will produce at Gathright's level in 2006. No way in hell[/CODE] :blink: ahh? Did you even read what I posted? because if you did you would have understood the purpose. Here's your chance: Reggie Abercrombie, of Age: 23. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-3. Wt.: 210. Drafted: Lake City (Fla.) CC, D/F 1999 (23rd round). Signed by: Lon Joyce. Background: Abercrombie entertained college football scholarships before his parents persuaded him to focus on baseball. He has added more than 40 pounds of muscle since signing and draws comparisons to premium athletes such as Eric Davis, Torii Hunter and Preston Wilson. Strengths: Many scouts say Abercrombie is the best physical specimen in baseball. His speed, center-field range and arm strength all earn 70 on the 20-80 scouting scale. He has tremendous bat speed and the strength to drive pitches out of any park to all fields. Weaknesses: Abercrombies plate discipline has been downright awful. He appeared to make progress after getting contact lenses in May 2002, but his strikeout-walk ratio worsened in 2003. Though he works hard on pitch-recognition drills, he continues to struggle in that area. Hes overaggressive, gets off balance and chases too many pitches in the dirt and out of the zone. The Future: Abercrombie tore the ACL in his right knee chasing a fly ball in the Arizona Fall League and could be out until May. The Dodgers still protected him on their 40-man roster. Once he returns to Double-A, it will be time for him to start making adjustments. OKAY How exactly has Abercrombie changed since then? His weakness remain they same which is why he isn't much of a prospect today, though his strengths remain the same. I bet if that same writer or any scout can do this exact same piece on Reggie Abercrombie his strengths and weakness will probably look identical to this "3 year old report" which is not the case with Edwin Jackson. [CODE]He ignores those though saying, what have you done for me lately? "His head is messed up, he failed in LA. He's done." That's a very fair argument, and I would side with him on that analysis because I don't care about 19 year old Edwin anymore[/CODE] I never made no such argument so please don't make things up for the sake of trying to prove someting. This is exactly what I said. [CODE]AubreyT239 wrote: "MarlinsLou wrote: I can make a very strong argument Johnson or Nolasco is your # 2 THIS season" [code]Edwin Jackson > Josh Johnson or any other Marlins pitcher not named Dontrelle, and he may not crack our starting rotation. I'm a Marlins fan too, and I try to be realistic, both teams' pitching is downright bad. I think you've drank too much Marlins Kool-Aid and just need to relax. [/code] [b]Im sorry but I think you overdosed on Devil Ray kool-Aid and just got up from a coma. In 2004 I would agree with you. The Edwin Jackson of the last 2 years is not a top 100 prospects. (which is why the Dodgers traded him) He still has front of rotation potential if you guys fix him up.[/b] [code]AubreyT239"]Cubangm wrote: AubreyT239 wrote: "MarlinsLou wrote: I can make a very strong argument Johnson or Nolasco is your # 2 THIS season" Edwin Jackson > Josh Johnson or any other Marlins pitcher not named Dontrelle, and he may not crack our starting rotation. I'm a Marlins fan too, and I try to be realistic, both teams' pitching is downright bad. I think you've drank too much Marlins Kool-Aid and just need to relax. [/code] [b]Im sorry but I think you overdosed on Devil Ray kool-Aid and just got up from a coma. In 2004 I would agree with you. The Edwin Jackson of the last 2 years is not a top 100 prospects. (which is why the Dodgers traded him) He still has front of rotation potential if you guys fix him up. [/b] [code]Nice attempt at a rip. I'll give you points for originality though My post would look the same if Jackson were on the Dodgers. If Felix Hernandez took the same fall as E-Jax would you immediately think of him as trash? No, that's what I though. And Jackson has been ranked and esteemed just as high as Felix.[/quote] [/code] [[b]code]I never said trash. I would take Edwin Jackson on my team any day but I would realize at this point he is a project. And im sorry but Edwin Jackson was never put on the Felix Hernandez(King Felix), Mark Prior, Josh Beckett level. He was always a notch below.[/CODE] [/code][/b] [CODE]A quick sidenote, the word is the Rays are going to start Joey in CF, Rocco at DH, Gomes in RF, Huff at 3B. Joey [i]isn't[/i] going to be their 5th OF. He's going to be getting a lot of AB, and my guess is, it is to further convince him to the Marlins so they can try and get their clamy hands on Olsen. I don't want that to happen, but that's how I see it. Now, what are realistic projections for Gathright, Reed, and Abercrombie in 2006 Gathright, .275/.325/.370, 55/20 SB, average league defense Reed .250/.290/.340, 35/20 SB, above average league defense Abercrombie .240/.275/.390, 25/12 SB, slightly above average defense[/CODE] I think there realistic but like you said they are projections and a Johnson, Olsen, Sanchez, Petit ain't worth a increase of .20 increase which is still gonna be below average form the lead off spot. [CODE]This is very fair given a first time through the league for all of them. Who has the best production right now? Gathright, by a huge margin. Who has the best professional baseball track record of the three, is the youngest, and has the best argument for improving as a player? Gathright. If all improve off their initial numbers, Reed and Abercrombie will turn into bench OF, while Gathright will turn into Pierre. You are hanging by an arm off the side of a cliff when you call out Gathright vs Reed/Abercrombie shenanigans. As I have said numerous times before, the question isn't if he is an upgrade - he is. He's a substantial upgrade whether you acknowledge this or not. The question is [b]what is Gathright worth to the Marlins?[/CODE] Guess what some sites list Reggie Abercrombie as being younger than Gathright. [URL="http://www.rotowire.com/baseball/player.htm?id=7229"]http://www.rotowire.com/baseball/player.htm?id=7229[/URL] Even if Gathright happens to be younger the difference is around 6-8 months while will Johnson its 3 years. [CODE]You have already answered this question, that practically NO ONE is worth him in your opinion, and when you try to defend yourself, you do it very poorly. If you want to look like less of a dummy, just say "[i]I want to keep all our SP prospects and see which ones pan out. I think assembling our rotation is more important then bringing in position players over the field that don't have the potential to be a superstar like Hanley. If we can get a Carlos Quentin, that's someone I would like to acquire. But I think we can bring in key complimentary players later once we get our rotation set. We can trade Gaby and the 05 draft class to fill holes if need be. We aren't contending. We aren't in a rush.[/i]" That's all you need to say. That's a smart perspective, and very legitimate.[/CODE] Again when have I ever said "no one is worth Gathright" I have always said he ain't worth Johnson, Olsen, Sanchez, Petit. Im defending myself poorly? look at how many Gathright supports where out there when you first arrived to this site and how many there are now. Also I have always said we shouldn't overspent because we ain't contending and that potential of the big 4 (as I like to call them) is far greater than that of Gathright which is why isn't not worth it. I have showed that Gathright ain't nothing special, is a stop gap or "complementary" like you like to put it and players like that shouldn't bring in someone like Olsen, Johnson etc. [CODE]AND THAT'S IT!!!!!! Are we done?[/CODE] I don't know :mischief2 but I get the feeling that we ain't :)

Besides the fact that Arroyo is a proven middle rotation 3/4 starter and Johnson is not, Wily Mo Pena is not a starting baseball player, and he won't be for the Red Sox who are very smart handling personal. Three Year Splits Wily Mo RHP .237/.286/.454 LHP .276/.347/.536 Nixon RHP .314/.395/.560 LHP .214/.305/.327. The Reds know this also - they have a smart new front office man and realize he is not worth the playing time in non LHP circumstances, and they really need pitching. Arroyo is proven, and signed for 3 years relatively cheap. Wily Mo will only be playing against LHP in right field, and maybe steal some AB from Youkilis/Lowell and play some 1B. I wouldn't anticipate him getting more then 400 AB, over 70% of which is against LHP. Wily Mo Pena is a complimentary player also. You don't build around him, and the Red Sox won't bat him higher then 7th or 8th. Just because you can hit HR, doesn't mean you are a core player to build around. You know who Wily Mo Pena is going to be? Bobby Kielty Kielty three year splits RHP .212/.322/.322 LHP .296/.388/.504 Wily Mo Pena is VERY overrated, and I think this is a great trade both ways. http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/b...on-arroyo.shtml So with career # like this and the fact that he was gonna start in Boston bullpen where he just so happens was also behind Jonathan Papelbon, you still manage to call a pitcher like this a proven 3/4 starter? I don't know about you but I value Chris Young much higher than Bronson Arroyo and Willy Mo Pena, Josh Johnson(who you project to Chris Young) over Joey Gathright.

Second, you are delusional if you think Reed/Abercrombie would outproduce Gathright offensively, and could be considered a long term option. This isn't even close. It's a tremendous gap. I don't believe I ever said that they would out produce him long term. I believe what I have always said is I think a platoon of Reed and Abercrombie will produce more than Gathright will if he where our 2006 CF. If he does difference is gonna be marginal and not worth giving up a Johnson much less Olsen. Now if we are talking long term giving up Johnson is still unfair for Gathright based on potential and the difference between Reed and Gathright is also not worth giving. At the moment even Damon Hollins (I believe his name is) is beating Joey Gathright for the battle of #4 on the Major League roster. Yet you are still willing to give up Johnson for Gathright. come on user3... that scouting report is 3 years old Still his strengths remain the same and he is finally putiing up good # now. I myself ain't convince he can keep it up but who is to say he won't? and that we should trade for Gathright right now when we ain't contending?

Career minor league OPS. Gathright .751, Reggie .721, Reed .703. What happened? Guess whose youngest also, and has played the most against higher levels of competition. Reed and Gathright have identical minor league slugging numbers, Reggie obviously on top here because he's knocking HR off mostly single A pitchers. I don't find this very notable when you can't hit .260 in double AA as a 25 year old. I also never said Gathright was as good defensively as either. I have always said Reed is going to be a dominant defender, and Reggie slightly above league average, which is slightly better then Gathright. Neither players hurts you defensively even if they aren't an outright plus fielder like Reed. Arm strength is not the only factor in determining defensive value. I hope you realize that. After doing research this is what I found out. Gathright has a .751 and Reggie a .721 like you said but Reed OPS is not .703 but .719. Both Reed and Abercrombie beat Gathright in SLG. (Reed .368, Gathright .361 not identical sorry) Yet Gathright has around 700 less at bats than Reed and 1200 less at bats than Abercrombie in the minors. Secondly you talk about Abercrombie beating up or hitting HR's of single A pitchers. Well while you are correct you forget to mention that Abercrombie has been in either extreme or average pitching ball parks his whole life except for 120 at bats while he was in Arizona farm system. Abercrombie also skipped low A ball (Dodgers decision) after just 220 at bats at rookie ball. The Dodgers then started him off the following season at the age 19-20 in high A ball(Carloina League) were he posted a .607 OPS in 486 at bats which really hurt his OPS and development. Here is an old scouting report I found on Abercrombie Reggie Abercrombie, of Age: 23. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-3. Wt.: 210. Drafted: Lake City (Fla.) CC, D/F 1999 (23rd round). Signed by: Lon Joyce. Background: Abercrombie entertained college football scholarships before his parents persuaded him to focus on baseball. He has added more than 40 pounds of muscle since signing and draws comparisons to premium athletes such as Eric Davis, Torii Hunter and Preston Wilson. Strengths: Many scouts say Abercrombie is the best physical specimen in baseball. His speed, center-field range and arm strength all earn 70 on the 20-80 scouting scale. He has tremendous bat speed and the strength to drive pitches out of any park to all fields. Weaknesses: Abercrombie?s plate discipline has been downright awful. He appeared to make progress after getting contact lenses in May 2002, but his strikeout-walk ratio worsened in 2003. Though he works hard on pitch-recognition drills, he continues to struggle in that area. He?s overaggressive, gets off balance and chases too many pitches in the dirt and out of the zone. The Future: Abercrombie tore the ACL in his right knee chasing a fly ball in the Arizona Fall League and could be out until May. The Dodgers still protected him on their 40-man roster. Once he returns to Double-A, it will be time for him to start making adjustments.