The Cactus Leaguer

Oh, and I forgot to mention - the Brewers attendance at Maryvale stinks... but yes, the park is nice, the neighborhood isn't.

I don't see the brewers moving anytime soon - the park in maryvale is pretty nice, even if the neighborhood isn't - plus they draw pretty well with all the midwestern people who continually move down here I don't either, but out of all the teams, they would be the most likely with their combination of geography, facility, and their lease being up sooner. Actually I could see the Rockies moving as well out of Hi-Corbett at some point but not out of AZ (maybe Tucson Electric to replace the White Sox when they leave, or to Goodyear to join the Tribe). But this is all just guessing on my part. The real mystery is what will Reds do... then you may see dominoes start to fall.

It could be the Reds heading to Vero Beach... their funding proposal to renovate their stadium in Sarasota fell apart recently. I think the Pirates are on track with their stadium upgrades (including lights), so I don't know if they plan to move or even if they can with their lease. Personally I think the Reds should join the Indians in Goodyear, but then you'd either need another team to move back to Florida (Brewers?), or another team would have to migrate to AZ with the Reds. Whatever happens, they need to save Dodgertown - that's a national treasure.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. The push for downtown was more of an MLB than a Marlins thing (at least early on). So maybe MLB is backing off of that, and perhaps moving to OB (if the deal is done right) will not cause the Marlins to decrease their contribution. One other thing under discussion has been the creation of a "G3"-type fund like the NFL has to float low interest loans to teams in need of stadia. Note this is a loan, not MLB kicking in cash per se. The loans would have future media revenues (which are massive and will continue to be massive in the foreseeable future) as collateral. This could help to enable the deal. I'm not sure if MLB is ready to roll out their version of a G3 fund, but I know it's under discussion. For your guys' sake, I hope the meeting today goes well.

My assumption was that the stadium would be completely enclosed when the roof is shut (unlike Safeco, but like Minute Maid and Chase)... just wondering if the emphasis on views is that critical since none of the completely enclosed stadiums that I have been to offered decent skyline views. They have solid walls extending upwards all the way around so that the AC has a chance to work. Safeco has a decent view of downtown but that's because of the open space in left field beginning at the top of the left field bleachers. If I'm wrong on any of this, please clarify... thanks.

i think thats the only problem i have with a downtown ballpark. yes there will be plenty to do afterward but people seem to love to drive everywhere and with a downtown park there is a limit to the amount of parking. Actually that's one of the advantages of building ballparks in downtown locations --- lots of parking garages that would otherwise be empty on nights and weekends when the games are being played... and as a bonus, you don't have to blow a boatload of $$$ on new parking garages or chew up vast seas of land for surface parking. (again, this is a general rule --- every stadium situation is different)

Forgive my stupidity in asking this, but isn't the issue funding, rather than site location? I'm not saying that the site ISN'T an issue, just not THE issue right now. I thought the whole opportunity with the Canes moving to DS was that it could possibly free up some funds that would otherwise have gone to renovations and/or maintenance of the Orange Bowl. On a side note, I'm wondering how much the "+1" proposals are going to end up impacting you guys in South Florida. I'm sure that Dallas and Phoenix will be rolling out the red carpet in an effort to host that game every year. Who knows, maybe even Indianapolis and a few others will try to get in the act with their shiny new climate controlled football stadia.

You're not going to have any facilty built over railroad tracks or highways, or streets passing underneath for the obvious (terrorist) security issues in today's world. Really? I don't recall this being an issue with the West Side Stadium proposal in New York (of all places)... and that would have been built over rail yards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Stadium

San Antonio and Portland would (and will, IMO, in 5-10 years) make viable small markets (Vegas and Orlando are not viable for reasons discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere). South Florida, on the other hand, is a viable midsize market in a strategic location. MLB is very strong financially, and MLB is very patient when it comes to stadiums (look at how long it took the Twins). The Marlins aren't going anywhere, yet. They have at least a five year window to get an agreement in place before anything resembling a viable alternative exists. "We miss field goals in the dirt"? BFD. So do your opponents. Does he honestly think that comment is going to scare the city into making a deal?

The roof adds $100m to the cost. Yeah land in the SF Bay Area is more expensive, but is it really that much more than downtown Miami (I trust that Marlins2003 and other insiders know the answer to that one better than I do)? I think that $490m is optimistic, and the people at the negotiating table know it. That's why they are quibbling over $30m, because the reality is that there is a fair to good likelihood that the stadium will go over budget and someone (ownership according to the most recent published reports, which I still find hard to believe) will get stuck with the bill. What all of you seem to forget is that the $490M price tag for the stadium down here DOES NOT INCLUDE THE REAL ESTATE/LAND PURCHASE PRICE/VALUE OF LAND. That is because they would be using property that already belongs to the City of Miami or Miami-Dade County. If we were talking about private land or land that needed to be condemned, then the price tag would skyrocket and probably, then, you could compare the prices of the stadium here with the stadium in Fremont equally. Until then, the Fremont price tag probably includes land, while the Marlins price tag does not. Actually you are raising a good point that I forgot to check on. The A's already bought the land (226 acres for $500 million according to Barry Witt, or $2.21 million per acre). The $450 million price tag for the stadium in Fremont is for the stadium cost alone, not the land.

The roof adds $100m to the cost. Yeah land in the SF Bay Area is more expensive, but is it really that much more than downtown Miami (I trust that Marlins2003 and other insiders know the answer to that one better than I do)? I think that $490m is optimistic, and the people at the negotiating table know it. That's why they are quibbling over $30m, because the reality is that there is a fair to good likelihood that the stadium will go over budget and someone (ownership according to the most recent published reports, which I still find hard to believe) will get stuck with the bill.

Wolff is one of the rookie owners. He is still learning, he's never owned a team before. Wolff may be a "rookie" owner, but if there is any owner in MLB who can pull this off, it's him. Also, he has been sowing the seeds for this for years... he had an option to purchase the team for a time and he used all of that time on due diligence for this stadium proposal. Believe me - you guys would love to have an owner like Wolff. He does he work behind the scenes, he doesn't alienate the fanbase by playing footsie with other cities, etc. And he takes zero credit for the Moneyball success engineered by Billy Beane - he just stays out of the way. Cape - I'm not trying to be confrontation here, but dismissing Wolff as a rookie owner who's still learning is quite shortsighted IMO.

Orlando has only ONE valid argument for getting an MLB team - total personal income (TPI). Orlando has a higher amount of TPI available to support an MLB franchise than any of the other contenders (unless you consider 3rd franchises in LA or NY a possibility, and most insiders don't). Personally I think the TPI numbers are inflated in Orlando due to the influx of super-rich people who call the Orlando area "home" for tax reasons, but nonetheless it's there (statistically). But if you look at it from any other angle (metro size, TV market, competition, etc.) Orlando does not stack up as well as the other contenders, and it's not even close to Miami. The "tourist" myth has already been debunked so I won't even go there. And the arguments about no D-Ray fans in Orlando? Meaningless. There were no Mariner fans in Portland either when the team sucked for the first 20 years of their existence. But when the team got good and the stadium became great, everyone in town became a Mariners fan.

''It would not go up at all during construction,'' (Samson) said. ``Our contribution is so large, and we're responsible for overruns.'' Holy smokes. I hope the final cost estimates end up conservative, otherwise you might end up getting a "value engineered" (read: cheap) stadium. Samson said getting state money ($60 million from a sales tax rebate) remains ''critical.'' The Marlins, who have increased their contribution above $210 million, appear to have a decent chance after five failed attempts in Tallahassee. There were several regulars in here who were ripping my head off last year for even hinting that state funding may be necessary. So to you I say this: The good news is I think you have a great shot at it this time. I agree with all the people who are saying that Samson needs to have someone else handle his PR. That was almost as bad as Terrell Owens' ex-publicist.

I fully expect that any moment now the Dave Hyde's of the world will start dropping hints about Huizenga's new offer to share Dolphin Stadium, or maybe adjoining land becoming available again or suggesting the Marlins aren't paying their fair share, or the red herring that "we need new schools and books not new stadiums for the rich..." etc., as Wayne's PR machine kicks into gear across the state to try and derail funding in Talahassee. It isn't a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". Well it sounds like you guys have the key politicos on your side now, so I doubt if the PR campaign will work.

I think it's fair to ask about the funding gap and who is on the hook for cost overruns, but they must have figured out a plan to overcome these hurdles, otherwise there would have been no such announcement. Over recent years, the stadium politics articles that flow from MLB.com have the straddled the line between "news" and public relations from the MLB head office. My wild guess is that they need the state to ante up in order to make a downtown site work, and the article was rolled out in order to keep the momentum going at the state capitol.

I have told you guys several times, Samson is out of the picture...Way out of the picture , There has to be a height joke in there somewhere. :shifty

I wouldn't be fooled into thinking that stadium costs are higher in the Miami area than the SF bay area. As others have said, the roof makes it at least $100 million more expensive, but for everything else the costs are likely to be the same or higher for the A's. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I also believe that the A's stadium has mostly two decks (like PNC Park), whereas the Marlins stadium would have three decks. The third deck adds cost but allows for more suites. One HUGE thing to look for is who is on the hook for cost overruns. For the A's it will almost certainly be the team, which means that they may end up shortc... errrr, value engineering things at a certain point to get the costs within budget. Lastly, I don't think the $300 million figure in the article is correct. At a minimum, it excludes land costs and infrastructure improvements.

For every two ticket season ticket package in the Lower Level that Buffy and Tad, or Mort and Ellen from Boca buy, the Marlins would expect and probably received tens of thousands of dollars for a suite from one of the above companies, along with another 10 to 20 club seats. Also, don't forget that a lot of the Tads and Morts that live in the 'burbs already work downtown or do business with other downtown companies and will be more than happy to buy season tickets or ticket packages themselves.

I wouldn't be so high on getting the Dodgers. I believe I read someplace that the town here has basically kissed blue butt and gave them everything they wanted to keep them right where they are. I do believe DodgerTown stays right where it is. It's a tradition type thing. I'm not high or low on it, but the Dodgers moving to Arizona is inevitable. Before the ink was even dry on the agreement between the Indians and Goodyear, the Dodgers began formally setting the wheels in motion for a move to AZ (which is important because teams need to move in pairs for scheduling purposes). The O'Malleys sold, most of the original Brooklyn fans are gone, and attendance is poor since few SoCal Dodger fans want to fly to Vero Beach as opposed to drive to AZ. But I think you are making a valid point about Vero Beach. I wouldn't be surprised if another team ends up relocating their ST in "Dodgertown" in part because of the tradition and support in that community.

It looks like the Reds are staying in Sarasota according to this article: http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll.../609270398/1060 If Glendale gets the golden goose (the Dodgers) and Goodyear still needs another team (as they are currently planning on a two team facility), I think the best candidate would be to move the Rockies up and away from Hi Corbett Field in Tucson. I haven't heard anything on the Twins other than they are happy in Fort Myers. Either them or the Astros would make the most sense geographically speaking.

Yeah, I said that tongue in cheek.

I forgot to mention - don't forget to add in the hush money so that Loria doesn't end up publishing "Lords of the Realm" Volume 2 or doing anything else that could threaten the anti-trust status of MLB. With the Marlins/Expos/Red Sox/Nationals mess, who knows what that guy really knows about the inner workings of MLB.

Actually I think it's a silly notion, the litigation would go on for so many years Selig wouldn't live long enough to see a new owner. Besides nothing DuPuy or Selig have said indicates their displeasure here other than their frustration with corrupt banana republic politicos and the general comment that I think is shared by everyone, that the status quo is unacceptable. Technically speaking I think you are correct that they can't "force" Loria to sell. I suppose they could alter the financial ratio requirements in such a way that it forces Loria to take on new ownership, but who knows who else would get KO'ed in the process. And I suppose there are other ways they could make his tenure miserable as well. But it's no secret that MLB is not thrilled with Loria as a majority owner... they never have been. Loria will get out sooner or later, but only if the price is right. And what better way to drive the price up than to insist that you will not sell.

I can only speak about AZ and it really has no effect - i love spring training and try to check out as much as possible - but it is so different from a major league game - a lot of the times players will leave the facility after they get in their duty i have yet to catch a weekday game though - start times are too early and locals would have to call off work, unless retired most of the fans I see are either retired or people on ST vacation - the rest is made up by locals - many just enjoy paying their $5, throwing a towel down on the berm behind the outfield, sunbathing and having a beer all the teams in AZ are pretty close and definitely in the heart of the market the d-backs draw from - if anything I think it helps - it keeps baseball on peoples mind and gets them in the mood for the start of the season - with the dbacks down in tucson it helps them expand their base and get the people down there familiar with the team and ready for the sidewinders (their triple a team) which also plays in tucson PhxPhin - As a huge Indians fan and annual Cactus League visitor, I am very psyched that the Tribe will be moving to your home town in a few years. Any news on whether the Dodgers or another team will be heading to Goodyear?