so are you saying that the conservatives are going to vote for kerry then?

 

there are two types of conservatives... moral and fiscal... and some people are both.

 

you are a fiscal conservative but not a moral conservative and you certainly don't speak for all conservatives.

oh that guy is my lover (that would be, the guy in the sig is me)

oh, whoops. What a flattering photo of you :thumbup

 

I own a spanish civil war helmet, most people think it is a helmet from nazi germany. I think I should walk around with one of those, people won't think I'm racist.

yah, it's an amazingly hot pic of me...that's why I have it as my sig...lol

so are you saying that the conservatives are going to vote for kerry then?

True conservatives would not vote for either. Voting for bush is like voting for lyndon johnson.

 

you are a fiscal conservative but not a moral conservative and you certainly don't speak for all conservatives.

 

Bush is not a moral conservative. Killing people isn't exactly moral. Being a drug addict and continuing the war on drugs is not moral. Allowing prisoner abuse is not moral (and if he was no inept to know it was not going on, that's not much better.) Wow, he made stem cell research not gov't funded and made partial birth abortion illegal. Big whoop. He's is definitely not a moral conservative, not with the increase of FEDERAL POWER and the blood on his hands.

 

Moral conservatives SHOULD be against in his more centralized power and no child left behind act. They are not.

 

You know who votes Bush? People who are spiteful of liberals. You know who votes Kerry? People who are spiteful of conservatives. Are these people true liberals and conservatives? Not in my book.

yah, it's an amazingly hot pic of me...that's why I have it as my sig...lol

Dude, were you drunk or something? and by the way, are you done with the semester yet?

Soriano, I'm voting for Bush because I identify more with him than I do with Kerry. Make what you want of it.

yah, it's an amazingly hot pic of me...that's why I have it as my sig...lol

Dude, were you drunk or something? and by the way, are you done with the semester yet? no...just a rando pic...i was chuggin a 2 litre bottle of coke at the time.....

 

and we dont get out till late may/early june...we start in september, and have a trimester system

Soriano, I'm voting for Bush because I identify more with him than I do with Kerry. Make what you want of it.

What do you identify with I ask you.

yah, it's an amazingly hot pic of me...that's why I have it as my sig...lol

Dude, were you drunk or something? and by the way, are you done with the semester yet? no...just a rando pic...i was chuggin a 2 litre bottle of coke at the time.....

 

and we dont get out till late may/early june...we start in september, and have a trimester system I see. I have a friend that goes to northwestern with the same sort of system.

Soriano, I'm voting for Bush because I identify more with him than I do with Kerry. Make what you want of it.

What do you identify with I ask you. A Southern Christian that has the balls to make the right decision even if it's unpopular.

 

That's my opinion. You have one too, that's what the ballot is for. :cool

If I was convinced christianity was the real deal, I would be afraid of hell supporting bush. He is not saving the fetuses, he's not saving our army, who's he saving? no one. He's contrary to christian values.

 

what makes bush a good christian?

He's contrary to christian values

 

Christianity is not the moral code of Jesus Christ. Todays Christianity is a football team.

 

 

...America is a football team too.

How is Bush supposed to save the "fetuses"? The supreme court made the law the supreme court will eventually be what overturns the law, maybe.

 

I'll tell you how Bush WILL save the fetuses. The Supreme Court justices are pretty dang old. One or two of them will likely die during the next term. Whoever wins the Presidency will be the guy who appoints the new judges... FOR LIFE. This election is going to have some drastic long term effects.

The fact that Bush began his 2000 SC Campaign at Bob Jones U, is fact alone that he's not a good Christian. Sorry.

 

He's just another idiot who is only building a wall around the different sects of christianity.

 

A good christian respects all aspects of Christianity, not showing support for an anti-catholic college.

I'm a terrible Christian. I do not see where I have room to critique President Bush's faith. I'm just glad he has one.

He's contrary to christian values

 

Christianity is not the moral code of Jesus Christ. Todays Christianity is a football team.

 

 

...America is a football team too. is jesus on the packers?

How is Bush supposed to save the "fetuses"? The supreme court made the law the supreme court will eventually be what overturns the law, maybe.

by making it against the law. then it has to be overturned. but it might stand if they made an attempt on second trimester. but they didn't. why? because they really don't give a crap.

 

I'll tell you how Bush WILL save the fetuses. The Supreme Court justices are pretty dang old. One or two of them will likely die during the next term. Whoever wins the Presidency will be the guy who appoints the new judges... FOR LIFE. This election is going to have some drastic long term effects.

Yeah, but haven't such justices repeatedly PROTECTED the right to slaughter a fetus?

How is Bush supposed to save the "fetuses"?? The supreme court made the law the supreme court will eventually be what overturns the law, maybe.

by making it against the law. then it has to be overturned. but it might stand if they made an attempt on second trimester. but they didn't. why? because they really don't give a crap.

 

I'll tell you how Bush WILL save the fetuses.? The Supreme Court justices are pretty dang old.? One or two of them will likely die during the next term.? Whoever wins the Presidency will be the guy who appoints the new judges... FOR LIFE.? This election is going to have some drastic long term effects.

Yeah, but haven't such justices repeatedly PROTECTED the right to slaughter a fetus?The vote is up to the justices. It's up to the President to appoint them. If Kerry wins, there will be abortion for a long time to come. If Bush wins, there's a shot at getting stricter abortion rights. It's become a method of birth control and a money saver now, rather than a health issue.

no bush wins, nothing changes in that arena

The fact that Bush began his 2000 SC Campaign at Bob Jones U, is fact alone that he's not a good Christian. Sorry.

 

He's just another idiot who is only building a wall around the different sects of christianity.

 

A good christian respects all aspects of Christianity, not showing support for an anti-catholic college.

lol, BJU (haha...immature joke lol) is right down the road from Furman (it's also in Greenville, SC). Some wierdos at that school man....Bob Jones III spoke at Furman last year...I wasn't able to make it. Apparently it was actually a pretty good talk.

The fact that Bush began his 2000 SC Campaign at Bob Jones U, is fact alone that he's not a good Christian. Sorry.

 

He's just another idiot who is only building a wall around the different sects of christianity.

 

A good christian respects all aspects of Christianity, not showing support for an anti-catholic college.

lol, BJU (haha...immature joke lol) is right down the road from Furman (it's also in Greenville, SC). Some wierdos at that school man....Bob Jones III spoke at Furman last year...I wasn't able to make it. Apparently it was actually a pretty good talk. Ah good ole Furman-I go to Elon in NC...anyways honestly there is no chance Bush is going to win this election. I just do not see it happening. Unless he comes up with some amazing dirt on Kerry or WMD is found he will not. Not to mention that there will be a terrorist attack that the Olympic Games this summer. He might be able to use that as a way to get sympathy somehow. There are far too many things this administration is doing wrong right now. The only thing is if Kerry is President what does he do with Iraq. Does he just give up or continue the effort forthe 'democracy'. This is coming from a person who has supported Bush throughout the war and more than likely will vote for him this election.

The truest Christians I know are the Amish and Quakers. They are anti-war at all costs and the meekest people I have ever known. They don't involve themselves in American pop-culture or the money first system of capitalism.

The truest Christians I know are the Amish and Quakers. They are anti-war at all costs and the meekest people I have ever known. They don't involve themselves in American pop-culture or the money first system of capitalism.

Yeah, they're great. If being a true Christian means living like it's still the late 19th century than I'll take a pass.

 

Besides, isn't it pretty easy to be anti-war and meek when you don't have any responsibilities when it comes to the maintenance of a nation-state?

NEW YORK - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the expansion of a secret program that encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners to obtain intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq (news - web sites), The New Yorker reported Saturday.

 

 

AP Photo

 

 

 

The Defense Department strongly denied the claims made in the report, which cited unnamed current and former intelligence officials and was published on the magazine's Web site. Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman Lawrence Di Rita issued a statement calling the claims "outlandish, conspiratorial, and filled with error and anonymous conjecture."

 

 

The story, written by reporter Seymour Hersh, said Rumsfeld decided to expand the program last year, broadening a Pentagon operation from the hunt for al-Qaida in Afghanistan (news - web sites) to interrogation of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.

 

 

Seven soldiers are facing military charges related to the abuse and humiliation of prisoners captured by the now-infamous photographs at the prison. Some of the soldiers and their lawyers have said military intelligence officials told military police assigned as guards to abuse the prisoners to make interrogations easier.

 

 

According to the story, which hits newsstands Monday, the initial operation Rumsfeld authorized gave blanket approval to kill or capture and interrogate "high value" targets in the war on terrorism. The program stemmed from frustrating efforts to capture high-level terrorists in the weeks after the start of U.S. bombings in Afghanistan.

 

 

The program got approval from President Bush (news - web sites)'s national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites), and Bush was informed of its existence, the officials told Hersh.

 

 

Under the program, Hersh wrote, commandos carried out instant interrogations ? using force if necessary ? at secret CIA (news - web sites) detention centers scattered around the world. The intelligence would be relayed to the commanders at the Pentagon.

 

 

Last year, Rumsfeld and Stephen Cambone, his undersecretary for intelligence, expanded the scope of the Pentagon's program and brought its methods to Abu Ghraib, Hersh wrote.

 

 

Critics say the interrogation rules, first laid out in September after a visit to Iraq by the then-commander of the prison for terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amounted to a green light for abuse.

 

 

Defense Department officials deny that, saying prisoners always are treated under guidelines of the Geneva Conventions.

 

 

"No responsible official of the Department of Defense (news - web sites) approved any program that could conceivably have been intended to result in such abuses as witnessed in the recent photos and videos," Di Rita said in his statement. "This story seems to reflect the fevered insights of those with little, if any, connection to the activities in the Department of Defense."

 

 

Di Rita also said Cambone has never had any responsibility for any detainee or interrogation programs.

 

 

The intelligence sources told the magazine photos of the sexual abuse were used to intimidate prisoners and detainees into providing information on the insurgency. It was thought that some prisoners would do anything ? including spying on their associates ? to avoid dissemination of the shameful photos to family and friends.

 

 

One intelligence official said the CIA ended its involvement with the program at Abu Ghraib prison by last fall.

 

 

"They said, 'No way. We signed up for the core program in Afghanistan ? pre-approved for operations against the high-value terrorist targets ? and now you want to use it for cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streets,'" the source said.

 

I know some people dont share this opinion because we will look like evil people to the rest of the country for doing this but I dont see nothing wrong with it. These people dont deserve any better and they treat us the same way.

 

Two wrongs dont make a right but a right and wrong dont make a right either.

 

If this report is true I'm glad someone had the balls to intiate this program and have harder interrogation techniques, we all known most other countrys have easier interrogation laws.

 

 

Article um....

 

 

 

something called Geneva established protocol for dealing with POWs.

 

 

 

It is not just some soliders that are coming up with these ideas to deal with Iraqi POWs.

 

 

Its coming from the higher ups.

 

 

If we are lucky they will be all tried for various war crimes.

 

 

What pisses me off the most is that the administration plays stupid when all of this is brought to the public's eye......when you can pretty much know that they have known about all of this all along.

Furman, not trying to put you on the spot. But something has always nagged me about a lot of die hard Bush supporters. I get the sense that you are religious to some degree. Ive ascertained this from your posts on the abortion topic and you said you go to church. If you arent then Im sorry for the presumption and Ill make this a general question to everyone, which it is anyway.

 

 

But I dont understand how the religious right can not be angry with these things. There is no way Jesus would support any of these actions from the administartion 'sdecision that collateral damage in the form of women and children will happen all the way down to the results of this conflict somehow being a diversion. This has effectivley become a modern crusade. A lot of ministers and priests Ive spoken with who dont like to meddle with politics are upset with how Bush has ignored the suffering in America but caused problems elsewhere and justified them.

 

It just feeds my belief that religion has become political and is no longer the strong moral fabric it used to be.

 

 

As far as Bush:

 

Bush is more than just one man. He is a representative of his entire administration and everything they do. And Ill tell you why I hate Bush:

 

-He only represents the far right, not the entire nation.

 

-He stumps about health and education legislation to get support then underfunds them when they are not on the front page.

 

-My favorite: If you dont support him, somehow you are labeled as unpatriotic(the right cannot deny how often this tool has been used). He uses the flag for his own political purposes.

 

-If you question him or call him out, they sick the attack dogs on you and the media does absolutley nothing. Richard Clarke is a liar, Paul Oneill is jaded, etc. The best is Joe Wilson. Someone in this administration commited treason. They revealed his CIA wife's name because he called Bush out. Wilson is convinced it is Cheney and buddies.

 

-He was raising money for his reelection at a record pace. He will have twice as much as Kerry all to discredit and distort Kerry at every chance. He would have done this to anyone.

 

-He sees everything in this silly good versus evil mentality.

 

-He pleads ignorance when the s*** hits the fan on everything.

 

-He has established a deep deep deep divide in this country.

 

-Youre either with him or against him.

 

-He has placed an immense economic burden on our children. When they grow up, they are the ones that have to pay for this war and everything else.

 

-He characterizes everything in simplicity and broad stroke statements.

 

-He uses 9/11 for political purposes.

 

Listen guys, this isnt liberal america that hates him. These are many many moderates. This guy is hated more than any president of recent memory. This administration has been reckless and hard fisted. Its clear that Bush could grow horns and people would still support him.

 

I liked Bush's dad. I was fine with Bush at the start of his administration. I dont care if your policies dont staunchly meet with my views, as long as you are an open, good president.

 

This is the president of a conservative. Not a moderate. You cant expect people to support a president because he is perfect for you and your views but terrible for most other people.

excellent post.

 

 

 

for me I would personally add in the utter raping of the environment as another reason i HATE bush.