July 11, 200421 yr Derrek Lee, 2003, Close and Late 76 AB .197 Avg .224 Slg 0 HR 4 RBI 27 K 8 R Real clutch :plain 452762[/snapback] i was waiting for someone to post that one split. since you went and looked at his splits, take a gander at his 2004 RISP and close&late, 2003 RISP and close&late, 2002 RISP and close&late, 2001 RISP and close&late and tell me if you can come to any statistical conclusion wahtsoever. the guy is about as clutch as pretty much any other major leaguer.
July 11, 200421 yr ah hell, i'll stop being lazy and end the dlee discussion once and for all. look: 2004: .301 avg (312 AB), .372 OBP .300 RISP (80 AB), .385 OBP .333 close&late (54 AB), .438 OBP 2003: .271 avg (539 AB), .379 OBP .269 RISP (160 AB), .417 OBP .197 close&late (76 AB), .361 OBP 2002: .270 avg (581 AB), .378 OBP .245 RISP (155 AB), .370 OBP .260 close&late (96 AB), .395 OBP 2001: .282 avg (561 AB), .346 OBP .299 RISP (134), .371 OBP .344 close&late (96 AB), .406 OBP 2000: .281 avg (477 AB), .368 OBP .238 RISP (130 AB), .356 OBP .366 close&late (82 AB), .464 OBP looking at his close & late numbers, one could come to the equally flawed conclusion after the 2000 and 2001 seasons that derrek lee is ultra-clutch. in close & late situations, he went .366 in 2000 and .344 in 2001--both with more ABs than in 2003. in 2000 his close&late avg was 85 points higher than his batting average, while last year his close&late avg was 74 points lower than his batting average in fewer ABs. whats that tell you? the numbers dont lie--that is, if you look at all of them.
July 11, 200421 yr Not factoring in salaries and it's close lead for Lee. Factoring in salaries it's Choi by a mile.
July 11, 200421 yr *bump* waiting for reply from the 90% of the users on this board who thought Lee sucked in the clutch. Cmon out of the hiding.
July 11, 200421 yr I'm not sure. Lee will always be a favorite of mine becuase he is well-known and is an awesome player, but Choi is under-rated. He does alot better then people give him credit for..So i'm un-decided.
July 11, 200421 yr I think Choi has done quite alright, and I think he's definitely the better buy of the two...but this unfounded talk about Lee being anti-clutch is silly. Lee, too is an all-time favorite of mine (along with Cliff Floyd, Dave Magadan, Josh Beckett, and now Josh Willingham).
July 12, 200421 yr Thanks guys for finally putting that crap about Lee being unclutch to rest. I tried plenty of times in the past, but you seem to have actually shut the other side up completely. There's really no rational position to counter the numbers you posted. From now on, if that argument should come up again, I'm just going to link to this thread.
July 12, 200421 yr Thanks guys for finally putting that crap about Lee being unclutch to rest. I tried plenty of times in the past, but you seem to have actually shut the other side up completely. There's really no rational position to counter the numbers you posted. From now on, if that argument should come up again, I'm just going to link to this thread. 453491[/snapback] hero-worship rears its ugly head again lolol
July 12, 200421 yr pretty much alkazoid will throw proof into the thread.... and Marlins2003 responds with an intelligent: "lolololol" Marlins2003, stick to bashing newspapers and such...
July 12, 200421 yr Looking at his numbers for the last three years in Close and Late situations, he does have a decent average. However, he has struck out over 30% of the time, hit an amazing 6 homers in 268 at bats, and mustered an amazing 25 RBI. That's 44.67 at bats per homer, and an RBI every 10.72 at bats. Amazing numbers there, let me tell you. The average in itself is deceptive, because the hits are meaning nothing. The only decent number I can find is that he has managed 1 run scored every 7.61 plate appearance (AB+HBP+BB). And that basically means that the people in back of him have been doing their job. So, how is he clutch again?
July 12, 200421 yr 1) no one said he's clutch...we're proving that he is as much the "anti-clutch" as any MLBer. 2) I think what needs to be addressed is the small sample size. I dont feel like looking up stats (Shamrock would be all over it, and alkazoid might be able to muster some energy for some stat digging), but the fact remains that "close and late w/risp" is an exceptionally small sample size. 3) Now prove that his close and late w/risp stats are so much worse than the rest of the MLB...or even 1st basemen...or 5/6 hitters.
July 12, 200421 yr But to say that he is clutch is foolish at best. Since, in fact, he is not clutch, the reason to express this is by calling him anti-clutch, since anti- is a Greek root meaning "against". So in fact, he is, anti-clutch. Is he the biggest anti-clutch player ever? No. Is he anti-clutch? Yes.
July 12, 200421 yr he isn't Mr. Anti-Clutch like 90% of these posters make him out to be. He is an above average hitter, with outstanding D, and average "clutch" hitting.
July 12, 200421 yr considering getting choi was regarded as a way to dump salary, im thrilled about his production
July 12, 200421 yr Looking at his numbers for the last three years in Close and Late situations, he does have a decent average. However, he has struck out over 30% of the time, hit an amazing 6 homers in 268 at bats, and mustered an amazing 25 RBI. That's 44.67 at bats per homer, and an RBI every 10.72 at bats. Amazing numbers there, let me tell you. The average in itself is deceptive, because the hits are meaning nothing. The only decent number I can find is that he has managed 1 run scored every 7.61 plate appearance (AB+HBP+BB). And that basically means that the people in back of him have been doing their job. So, how is he clutch again? 453601[/snapback] OK, he's not clutch, as you noted. But he's not NOT clutch either. He just is what he is, always. Now one of my complaints about Lee has always been that he was a little TOO willing to take a walk with men on base. I say this because he'd been backed up most of his time in FL by Alex Gonzalez and some random scrub catcher. So, when Lee walked, he theoretically sealed the team's fate by leaving it up to those two. But then you look at the number of runs he's scored. That's one number that always impressed me. How he managed to score nearly 90 runs a year with almost no one hitting behind him. And lololololololololololol
July 12, 200421 yr Looking at his numbers for the last three years in Close and Late situations, he does have a decent average. However, he has struck out over 30% of the time, hit an amazing 6 homers in 268 at bats, and mustered an amazing 25 RBI. That's 44.67 at bats per homer, and an RBI every 10.72 at bats. Amazing numbers there, let me tell you. The average in itself is deceptive, because the hits are meaning nothing. The only decent number I can find is that he has managed 1 run scored every 7.61 plate appearance (AB+HBP+BB). And that basically means that the people in back of him have been doing their job. 453601[/snapback] i dont have a clue what rbi/ab and hr/ab have to do with clutchness...that would make JP look pretty damn anti-clutch. nobody disputes the fact that he strikes out a lot.... plenty of power hitters do that. and i think youd agree its really silly to calculate the five-year hr/ab in close&late situations of a player who has gradually developed into a power hitter... So, how is he clutch again? 453601[/snapback] nobody's calling him clutch. that was never the argument. after last season, a lot of people came to the statistically unfounded conclusion that DLee was unclutch....looking at all the numbers, i think most would agree that is not the case. he's just as "clutch" as anyone else.
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