The results of wrong war, wrong time, wrong place:

 

Iraqi civilian fatalities: Uncertain, but at least 12,976

 

Iraqi military fatalities: Uncertain, several thousand

 

Coalition fatalities: 1198

 

U.S. fatalities: 1060

 

U.S. fatalities in September: 80 (tied for 3rd highest month and highest since May)

 

U.S. wounded (according to Dept. of Defense): 7032

 

Number of Weapons of Mass Destruction found: Zero

 

for the Christians thats at least 13,000 souls in hell

for the Conservatives thats a ton of tax payer money spent

Wow. :plain

This also doesnt include the maimed on the Iraqi side which probably exceeds 10,000.

Gotta love the fiscally conservative, peace-loving religious right.

 

:thumbup

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

American lives obviously don't mean s*** to you unless its not criticizing conservatives. As well as security and money...

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

 

There's genocide all in africa, why dont we go capture ourselves those leaders as well?

 

 

We have homeless dying in our own streets, lets worry about them before foreigners.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

American lives obviously don't mean s*** to you unless its not criticizing conservatives. As well as security and money...

579899[/snapback]

Totally, we should let genocide occur to make sure no U.S. soldier is harmed. :thumbdown

 

Bush is doing the right thing by sticking to his plan despite public opinion. Just like Washington did in the Revolution or Madison in 1812.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

 

There's genocide all in africa, why dont we go capture ourselves those leaders as well?

 

 

We have homeless dying in our own streets, lets worry about them before foreigners.

579955[/snapback]

 

We don't have the capability.

 

If the s***ty UN would do it's job, the US wouldn't be shouldering this burden alone.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

 

There's genocide all in africa, why dont we go capture ourselves those leaders as well?

 

 

We have homeless dying in our own streets, lets worry about them before foreigners.

579955[/snapback]

 

We don't have the capability.

 

If the s***ty UN would do it's job, the US wouldn't be shouldering this burden alone.

579991[/snapback]

 

CF, I admire a Republican with a heart. I remember you criticizing Clinton for going into Rwanda. Remember? That was a "TRUE" humanitarian effort. Iraq wasn't by any means. Remember that it was the administration of a Republican President that gave those biological weapons to Saddam with which he killed thousands of Kurds. We did absolutely nothing then.

 

I know that this is the story the Bush administration has tried to sell to guys like you, who are absolutely well meaning and think we went there to actually "liberate" Iraquies. CF, they are lying to you. If Iraqies wanted to be liberated they would be fighting with us not against us.

 

Liberal vs. conservative election year crap aside. We are in deep trouble in Iraq dude.

 

Those people (not terrorists, regular Iraquies) are joining with the insurgents to fight us. The intelligence reports paint a disheartening picture of that country. It is moving towards civil war. They are actually volunteering (kids and all) to throw home made grenades onto American troops. They think WE are invaders and occupiers, not liberators. The situation is so bad that I don't think we are ever going to be able to stabilize that country. Regardless of our military might, we can't kill every Iraqui dude. Despite what President Bush says and what you believe, this people really don't want us there. We've made their lives a missery. They don't have security, they don't have basic infrastructure (is all bombed), no electricity for most of the day, garbage is overflowing on the streets, walking to buy food is a wish for death. There are no jobs, there is absolutely nothing left of the modern city of Baghdad. There are some good things that the troops have done, like building schools and hospitals, but what is a new school building good for if the kids (and his parents for that matter) are deadly afraid of bringing them in because the security isn't there... The other day, the terrorists killed a bunch of Iraqui children for being close to US troops... Those people have no lives dude, the only thing they can do is fight us and kick us out of their country.

 

That is the truth.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

American lives obviously don't mean s*** to you unless its not criticizing conservatives. As well as security and money...

579899[/snapback]

Totally, we should let genocide occur to make sure no U.S. soldier is harmed. :thumbdown

 

Bush is doing the right thing by sticking to his plan despite public opinion. Just like Washington did in the Revolution or Madison in 1812.

579966[/snapback]

How does the Revolution=Iraq? I don't see the resemblance. And the War of 1812? The US was being violated on the merchant seas by the Brits forcing merchants into the service.

 

 

Public opinion in the Revolution? Oh yeah, the tories really represented the American opinion as a whole. Check your facts.

I don't know enough about Rwanda to criticize Clinton for it. I honestly don't think I ever posted about it. You may have mistaken me there.

 

You are right, we are in deep trouble in Iraq. Neither GWB or John Kerry want to do what I want them to do: withdraw, immediately.

 

Those terrorists over there are nuts. Just crazy. 35 children I believe was how many they killed on Thursday. That's just disgusting.

 

 

I dunno, I guess I just see things differently... I want nations across the world to come together and overthrow every brutal regime, every last one.

 

True, GWB did not go into Iraq for the reasons that I would have done so, had I been President. I don't feel lied to. I have my reasons for supporting what I support. I am aware that the Administration does not intend quite what I do.

 

But I stop short of accusing them of causing a war just for the hell of it.

I don't know enough about Rwanda to criticize Clinton for it. I honestly don't think I ever posted about it. You may have mistaken me there.

 

You are right, we are in deep trouble in Iraq. Neither GWB or John Kerry want to do what I want them to do: withdraw, immediately.

 

Those terrorists over there are nuts. Just crazy. 35 children I believe was how many they killed on Thursday. That's just disgusting.

 

 

I dunno, I guess I just see things differently... I want nations across the world to come together and overthrow every brutal regime, every last one.

 

True, GWB did not go into Iraq for the reasons that I would have done so, had I been President. I don't feel lied to. I have my reasons for supporting what I support. I am aware that the Administration does not intend quite what I do.

 

But I stop short of accusing them of causing a war just for the hell of it.

579999[/snapback]

 

Dude, what do you think is going to happen if we leave? That is exactly the dilemma and the reason why George W. Bush has screwed us up big time. Iraq wasn't by any means the center of the war on terror, but now, it is a breeding ground of pissed off middle eastern people who think we are out to kill them for their religion. Before the war there were no terrorists in Iraq, but right now it is a happy jumping ground for them. If we leave, it would be even worse. Imagine a terrorist state with OIL! :plain We would be toast, the entire world would be toast. As much as chicken France is extremely reluctant to help, they are going to have to, otherwise we can all kiss goodbye our peace of mind and expect a massive wave of attacks from the entire pissed off, oppressed and fanatical middle east population...

I don't know enough about Rwanda to criticize Clinton for it. I honestly don't think I ever posted about it. You may have mistaken me there.

 

You are right, we are in deep trouble in Iraq. Neither GWB or John Kerry want to do what I want them to do: withdraw, immediately.

 

Those terrorists over there are nuts. Just crazy. 35 children I believe was how many they killed on Thursday. That's just disgusting.

 

 

I dunno, I guess I just see things differently... I want nations across the world to come together and overthrow every brutal regime, every last one.

 

True, GWB did not go into Iraq for the reasons that I would have done so, had I been President. I don't feel lied to. I have my reasons for supporting what I support. I am aware that the Administration does not intend quite what I do.

 

But I stop short of accusing them of causing a war just for the hell of it.

579999[/snapback]

And this is why you should be a liberal. But Iraq was never a humanitarian operation. Darfur should've been a higher priority if thats what you want. And believe me, I am part of Amnesty International and currently we are trying to get togther a petition to send to Bush pleading for him to go to Darfur. If he doesn't listen to the future of the country, than I don't know if he'll listen to the constituency.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

American lives obviously don't mean s*** to you unless its not criticizing conservatives. As well as security and money...

579899[/snapback]

Totally, we should let genocide occur to make sure no U.S. soldier is harmed. :thumbdown

 

Bush is doing the right thing by sticking to his plan despite public opinion. Just like Washington did in the Revolution or Madison in 1812.

579966[/snapback]

How does the Revolution=Iraq? I don't see the resemblance. And the War of 1812? The US was being violated on the merchant seas by the Brits forcing merchants into the service.

 

 

Public opinion in the Revolution? Oh yeah, the tories really represented the American opinion as a whole. Check your facts.

579998[/snapback]

The approval rating for the war during the revolution was estimated to be in the 30-40 % range. The point is you dont back off a war if the public doesn't support it.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

American lives obviously don't mean s*** to you unless its not criticizing conservatives. As well as security and money...

579899[/snapback]

Totally, we should let genocide occur to make sure no U.S. soldier is harmed. :thumbdown

 

Bush is doing the right thing by sticking to his plan despite public opinion. Just like Washington did in the Revolution or Madison in 1812.

579966[/snapback]

How does the Revolution=Iraq? I don't see the resemblance. And the War of 1812? The US was being violated on the merchant seas by the Brits forcing merchants into the service.

 

 

Public opinion in the Revolution? Oh yeah, the tories really represented the American opinion as a whole. Check your facts.

579998[/snapback]

The approval rating for the war during the revolution was estimated to be in the 30-40 % range. The point is you dont back off a war if the public doesn't support it.

580019[/snapback]

Differences between Iraq and Revolution:

1. The Revolution was fought by American rebels who wanted to free themselves from the British rule.

2. Iraq is like Vietnam unless we get out of there now.

3. The Revolution was a freedom fight, this sure as hell isn't as much as Bush wants you to believe.

 

 

 

Your reason for staying is so Vietnam-esque. I am sure LBJ and Nixon would love to hear you say that.

I don't know enough about Rwanda to criticize Clinton for it. I honestly don't think I ever posted about it. You may have mistaken me there.

 

You are right, we are in deep trouble in Iraq. Neither GWB or John Kerry want to do what I want them to do: withdraw, immediately.

 

Those terrorists over there are nuts. Just crazy. 35 children I believe was how many they killed on Thursday. That's just disgusting.

 

 

I dunno, I guess I just see things differently... I want nations across the world to come together and overthrow every brutal regime, every last one.

 

True, GWB did not go into Iraq for the reasons that I would have done so, had I been President. I don't feel lied to. I have my reasons for supporting what I support. I am aware that the Administration does not intend quite what I do.

 

But I stop short of accusing them of causing a war just for the hell of it.

579999[/snapback]

We cant leave now. Hundreds of thousands would die. We cant abandon these people now.

I don't know enough about Rwanda to criticize Clinton for it.? I honestly don't think I ever posted about it.? You may have mistaken me there.

 

You are right, we are in deep trouble in Iraq.? Neither GWB or John Kerry want to do what I want them to do:? withdraw, immediately.

 

Those terrorists over there are nuts.? Just crazy.? 35 children I believe was how many they killed on Thursday.? That's just disgusting.

 

 

I dunno, I guess I just see things differently... I want nations across the world to come together and overthrow every brutal regime, every last one.

 

True, GWB did not go into Iraq for the reasons that I would have done so, had I been President.? I don't feel lied to.? I have my reasons for supporting what I support.? I am aware that the Administration does not intend quite what I do.

 

But I stop short of accusing them of causing a war just for the hell of it.

579999[/snapback]

And this is why you should be a liberal. But Iraq was never a humanitarian operation. Darfur should've been a higher priority if thats what you want. And believe me, I am part of Amnesty International and currently we are trying to get togther a petition to send to Bush pleading for him to go to Darfur. If he doesn't listen to the future of the country, than I don't know if he'll listen to the constituency.

580008[/snapback]

 

I don't see how my views on that subject can paint me left/right.

 

Any human should see things that way.

Don't forget peeps:

 

Number of innocents murdered while Saddam was in power: 1,000,000+

 

Of course, human life doesn't mean s*** to liberals unless it's convenient.

579888[/snapback]

 

There's genocide all in africa, why dont we go capture ourselves those leaders as well?

 

 

We have homeless dying in our own streets, lets worry about them before foreigners.

579955[/snapback]

Meh. They aren't going to go into Africa when they have someone who hates them and kills people for show 90 miles away for 45 years and they do squat.

 

And yeah, this is way too much money being spent by the government.

Good point CFDodge. Unfortunately politics sometimes (I see this in myself) pushes us to look at the world through a certain lens. Human life though, is valuable, not matter your politics.

I don't know enough about Rwanda to criticize Clinton for it.? I honestly don't think I ever posted about it.? You may have mistaken me there.

 

You are right, we are in deep trouble in Iraq.? Neither GWB or John Kerry want to do what I want them to do:? withdraw, immediately.

 

Those terrorists over there are nuts.? Just crazy.? 35 children I believe was how many they killed on Thursday.? That's just disgusting.

 

 

I dunno, I guess I just see things differently... I want nations across the world to come together and overthrow every brutal regime, every last one.

 

True, GWB did not go into Iraq for the reasons that I would have done so, had I been President.? I don't feel lied to.? I have my reasons for supporting what I support.? I am aware that the Administration does not intend quite what I do.

 

But I stop short of accusing them of causing a war just for the hell of it.

579999[/snapback]

 

Dude, what do you think is going to happen if we leave? That is exactly the dilemma and the reason why George W. Bush has screwed us up big time. Iraq wasn't by any means the center of the war on terror, but now, it is a breeding ground of pissed off middle eastern people who think we are out to kill them for their religion. Before the war there were no terrorists in Iraq, but right now it is a happy jumping ground for them. If we leave, it would be even worse. Imagine a terrorist state with OIL! :plain We would be toast, the entire world would be toast. As much as chicken France is extremely reluctant to help, they are going to have to, otherwise we can all kiss goodbye our peace of mind and expect a massive wave of attacks from the entire pissed off, oppressed and fanatical middle east population...

580006[/snapback]

 

Here is how I see it: For me, I'm looking at National Security as the most important issue in this election. And you know, I didn't really agree with the war when it started; I think we went in a little early, but at the same time, I'll say that something had to be done eventually.

The war obviously isn't going as well as any of us would have hoped, and I don't really see an end in sight. I think that we should get out of there as soon as possible, but I don't think dropping everything and leaving them to figure it out themselves is the way to do it. And while Bush doesn't have a plan to do it, Kerry doesn't either (and I know someone will probably point to his website for this; it doesn't say anything specific, other than "training Iraqi security" and making sure elections happen: Great, how you gonna do that any differently than Bush?) The way I look at it, why change horses mid-stream when neither guy has any sort of clue how to fix this?

Great points Clap, but heres where I disagree. Its absolutely necessary to change horses. One incumbent clearly has no rapport with the powers that can help alleviate our load in this debacle. If Kerry has anything its a clean slate with these countries.

whoa whoa whoa CF. Now you want to leave Iraq? You talk about helping innocent people but then say this? Do you know what would happen if we totally withdrew now? Do you know how many people would die in an all out civil war? You realize Iraq would be a greater threat to us than before we invaded?

 

 

And you call out liberals hence making it partisan. Conservatives never said anything about the suffering people of Iraq until Bush told them. They havent said anything about all the other conflicts. So dont try and put it on liberals. Bush and hte conservatives dont give a crap about the causes Amnesty International sets forth. And when they dont, you use the UN as a scapegoat.

I love how in every military conflict that last's more then a week, it is without fail compared to vietnam to some degree, a war that lasted 11 years and cost 10's of thousands of lives on the American side and lasted through 3 president's,(if you count kennedy)....I laughed when after 3 weeks in Afganistan, CNN started in with vietnam saying that were "getting caught in vietnam again"because we havent won the war yet. I'm not saying that things are going exactly as planned in Iraq, but were hardly at Vietnamesqe numbers yet, so i just find it funny that everyone compares this war to vietnam, yea, there are a few similarties with insurgents and and that it has taken us over 100 hours to win it, but this war is alot diffrent then vietnam, if the bush or kerry administration can get a leader who the iraqi people can trust, i guarentee that would turn the tide of the entire war into our favor, it's the one factor we need to win, someone leading the country the countryman trust, wich is a goal, somthing we didnt really have in vietnam, and i highly doubt the insurgents will get in an offensive postion like the vietcong did during the tet offensive.......o and on a side note, has anyone seen the death toll of the viet cong following the tet offensive, we slaughtered them, i'm not ashamed to say the numbers suprised me, i thought the viet cong got away with alot less casualties..

Quick note on Rwanda. By the time clinton went in almost 85% of the tutsi minority in the area had already been eliminated. It is an anomaly that the population actually has reformed itself in the same areas where the genocide occured and it is case specific. The clinton intervention was a PR effort, because by then it was too little too late, same as in Bosnia and same as sudan will be unless we act soon.