Here's how it goes. Each side makes their opening argument. One side goes first. Once the other side goes, the first side may post again and defend his argument. You can only go again once the opposing side gets to speak. You've got 48 hours.

 

ONLY the competitors of this specific debate, the judges and myself may post in this thread.

 

At the end the judges will privately vote on a winner.

 

This debate ends 6:00 PM Eastern on 12/14.

 

Topic: If attendance doesn't increase in 2005, would that justify a move out of South Florida?

 

Yes, it would - Hotcorner

 

No, it wouldn't - QuickGold

 

Either side may begin.

I'll take the liberty of going first.

 

Although ballpark attendence in 2005 is an important means of revenue for any team, nonetheless, if ballpark attendence in 2005 does not increase, the Florida Marlins do not have just cause for leaving South Florida because the fans of South Florida are cautious due to past events and management will see higher numbers if the product is worth seeing.

 

Baseball fans in South Florida have ridden a roller coaster of highs and lows stemming from the way the Florida Marlins franchise has conducted itself. Starting with the club's establishment in 1993, attendence went from novelty(veru high) to that of expansion franchise(signifigantly lower). However, as the ball club began to invest in itself, attendence rose. From 1995 through 1997, ball park attendence rose each year as the team began to improve. And after winning the World Series in 1997, things looked to be great. However, the team decided to sell off its players for various reasons and the end result was a team that finished 1997 as world series champs to a team that finished in 5th place for the next two years. This set a precedent for the fans of South Florida to be wary of supporting a team. Why go support the team if perhaps at any minute, it will be dismantled again for monetary reasons? Attendence hit an all-time low in 2002 and at this point, the Marlins began to improve again and attendence climbed. Following the 2003 world series victory, ball park attendence blossomed in 2004. However, the apparent financial shortcomings have left many worried that a repeat of 1997-98 would occur if the team decides that it's too expensive to run a quality ball team. People want reassurance that the team is as dedicated to them as they are to it. A drop in attendence in 2005 is not reason to leave. It would be a chance for the Marlins to make an appeal to the fans of the Marlins by showing to them committment. Threatening to leave South Florida is not a sensible solution to spiking attendence figures. These fans have been treated among the worst in the league in the few years of this franchise's establishment and any dip in attendence is a reflection of that.

 

Management will see higher numbers if the product is worth seeing. By investing in the team, the Marlins will see higher attendence figures. In the years where the Marlins made signifigant strides to make post-season play, attendence rose signifigantly. In 1997, attendence rose from 1,746,767 to 2,364,387. And in 2003 attendence rose from 813,111 to 1,303,215 and in 2004, attendence rose again to 1,723,105. Clearly, when the Marlins front office made a clear atempt to win games by improving the club, fans responded by showing up to see the games. Therefore, an attendence drop in 2005 would not be an indicator that it's time for the Marlins to leave, but rather, an indicator that the Marlins need to make further investment in their current team by improving its players and giving the fans of South Florida a reason to come out and cheer.

 

In conclusion, if attendence does not increase in 2005, there is no justification for a move of the Marlins franchise out of South Florida because the fans of South Florida are cautious due to past events and management will see higher numbers if the product is worth seeing. There's a saying in business that goes, "If you want to make money, you need to spend money." It is unreasonable to assume that a drop in 2005 attendence is a reason to leave; South Florida is still maturing as a baseball area. You can't compare South Florida to teams that have been in their cities for decades. In an area where the football and basketball teams are more popular, the Marlins have made signifigant headways in improving their popularity and it would be foolish to give up at the first sign of trouble.

This is a franchise that, after south florida was granted a major league baseball team, has promptly gone out and won not one but two world series championships in the span of 12 years. More specifically twice in seven years. A feat that fans from such hallowed baseball towns as Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, Baltimore, and St. Louis would give their right arms for.

 

In appreciation of these astounding feats, the masses of rabid south florida sports fans obviously have come out in droves to support their beloved Marlins, right?

 

Well, no.

 

They don?t come.

 

With the exception of a big-name visiting team in town for a weekend series, they simply don?t come.

 

Now that the team has won a second championship, pulling a franchise from the depths of a fire sale and contraction rumors and treating the fans to a cinderella ride straight from a storybook, get ready for the big increase in attendence:

 

26th. 26 out of 30 teams in attendence. Yep, just ahead of the homeless Expos and the hapless Pirates, Rays, and Royals. Thanks for the World Series title guys!

 

If attendence in 2005 does not increase from 1,723,105 (average of 22,091) after the new owner helped to bring a world series title and is fighting to build a stadium, are you kidding me?

 

They'd have every right to move.

An attendence drop in 2005 would be a hiccup in an overall growing attendence trend. Baseball has a history of doing it's very best to make a city work and not giving up at the first sign of trouble.

 

A short list of examples are the Philadelphia A's were in Phily for 53 years, the Boston Braves were in Boston for 76 years, New York Giants for 74 years, the Brooklyn Dodgers for 67 years and most recently, the Montreal Expos for 35 years.

 

Any savvy businessman would tell you that a drop in your product's popularity can be remedied by better marketing. South Florida is a proven area of the country that can support professional sporting teams. It's basketball and football teams are among the most popular in their respective sports.

 

Miami-Dade County is the eight largest county in the country. It's silly to think you can make more money in an another area of the country. South Florida is as ripe for baseball popularity as any of the oranges in the fields that grow them in the surrounding area. Persistence is the key to success and a drop in 2005 attendence is only an indicator that more should be done to improve the ballclub in 2006.

An attendence drop in 2005 would be a hiccup in an overall growing attendence trend.

A hiccup?? Poor attendence is the norm here. A hiccup would be an attendence INCREASE. That's what would shock people. Would anyone be surprised if Marlins attendence struggled yet again? Of course not.

Any savvy businessman would tell you that a drop in your product's popularity can be remedied by better marketing.

Better marketing? Here's a marketing idea. "We gave this town 2 world series titles. Get your assess out to the stadium." I don't know what marketing idea is better than winning titles. Apparently that's not good enough. I don't know what's better than championships but that's what this town demands. The Marlins have given you championships South Florida. What have you done for them?

South Florida is a proven area of the country that can support professional sporting teams.

 

Miami-Dade County is the eighth largest county in the country.

Thanks for helping to make my point. They've shown they'll support a team, it's a large market, they just don't like baseball, that's all.

Persistence is the key to success and a drop in 2005 attendence is only an indicator that more should be done to improve the ballclub in 2006.

I love this attitude that the team's not doing enough. What in god's name do people want?? There are 2 world series banners hanging from Pro Player Stadium. Their present owner is a godsend compared to the previous two. Admin Beinfest is a wizard with the finances he has to work with.

 

You want young exciting players to watch? I mean who wants to see Preston, Floyd, Lee, Lowell, CJ, Beckett, Millar, Burnett, Willis, Pierre, Pavano, Castillo, these guys were old & washed up I guess?

 

Let's face it. The attitude of South Florida is "The Florida Marlins haven't done enough for me to come out to the stadium and watch baseball games." That's it, plain and simple. Do they care about baseball? A little, yeah. Just enough to complain.

 

"I want a closer stadium. I want better sight lines at the park. What if the owner tries to move the team. This team never spends money. It might rain. It's too hot."

 

I hate how virtually every Marlins issue comes down to attendence, but that's at the core of everything. New stadium, good players, solid ownership, championships, it all means squat if the fans don't come. And they haven't shown any indication that they will.

 

September 2004, the team's in the thick of the wildcard hunt and we get 12,000 for a doubleheader.

 

I can't put it any easier than this folks:

 

Attendence Rank

 

1999 - 27th

2000 - 28th

2001 - 29th

2002 - 29th

2003 - 28th

2004 - 26th

2005 - ?

 

With a stadium deal in the works, if the fans show their appreciation by staying home and attendence doesn't increase...

 

...then South Florida just doesn't deserve the Marlins. Loria would have every right to seek a better alternative.

This matchup is now over, voting will now take place and a winner will be announced in about 24 hours.

Hotcorner had been voted the winner of this matchup. Anyone may now post in this thread.

Nice job to both of you! Good luck to the winner in the next round!

I feel that QuickGold failed in that he did not discuss how the current stadium situation is not condusive to high attendence and not a good indicator of true success in S Fla. That just because attendence may "fall" next season does not mean that baseball in S Fla cannot survive, but that it needs to be in a better more positive atmosphere.

 

Hotcorner made a very good argument, but I feel that the question itself was geared more towards the antagonist point of view rather than the protagonist point of view.

 

Like cape said both of you did a good job :thumbup

it was over after Quickgolds first sentence, considering he answered the wrong question.

it was over after Quickgolds first sentence, considering he answered the wrong question.

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Thanks.

Congrats to Hotcorner!

thanks Quick. thanks to the academy, everyone who voted for me, my parents, jesus, my ex-girlfriends, my high school debate coach, and especially my wife. we did it baby!

 

I'm the king of the worrrrrrrrrrld!

thanks Quick.? thanks to the academy, everyone who voted for me, my parents, jesus, my ex-girlfriends, my high school debate coach, and especially my wife.? we did it baby!?

 

I'm the king of the worrrrrrrrrrld!

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Thank Buddha, and Colonel Sanders *shakes fist*