July 20, 200323 yr ok...lets set this str8 Brad Penny > Brandon Duckworth Juan Pierre > Marlon Byrd Bad trade! Bring on the next proposal...this is fun
July 20, 200323 yr i think Byrd is gonna be a better player but not a better leadoff guy, which is what we need
July 21, 200323 yr i think Byrd is gonna be a better player but not a better leadoff guy, which is what we need The job of a leadoff hitter is to get on base. Pierre's OBP this season is .354. Byrd's OBP this season is .372. Which could perhaps be overlooked if Pierre hit for more power, but alas, Byrd also slugs higher than Pierre as well (and is expected to develop more power as he matures). The only thing Pierre has going for him is his speed, but his steals are overrated. Despite Pierre's 44 steals this season, he's only scored 60 runs. This is the same exact amount of runs Castillo has scored, even though Castillo has 30 (30!) less steals. Byrd and Duckworth for Penny and Pierre would've been a solid trade, so as usual, I'm not surprised Beinfest didn't pull the trigger.
July 21, 200323 yr i think Byrd is gonna be a better player but not a better leadoff guy, which is what we need The job of a leadoff hitter is to get on base. Pierre's OBP this season is .354. Byrd's OBP this season is .372. Which could perhaps be overlooked if Pierre hit for more power, but alas, Byrd also slugs higher than Pierre as well (and is expected to develop more power as he matures). The only thing Pierre has going for him is his speed, but his steals are overrated. Despite Pierre's 44 steals this season, he's only scored 60 runs. This is the same exact amount of runs Castillo has scored, even though Castillo has 30 (30!) less steals. Byrd and Duckworth for Penny and Pierre would've been a solid trade, so as usual, I'm not surprised Beinfest didn't pull the trigger. thats not his fault. he is getting into scoring pos., they just arent knocking him in
July 21, 200323 yr thats not his fault. he is getting into scoring pos., they just arent knocking him in They're not? The three batters that have hit behind Pierre pretty much all season are Castillo, Pudge, and Lowell. Castillo with runners on: .348 AVG, .851 OPS Pudge with runners on: .360 AVG, .954 OPS Lowell with runners on: .276 AVG, .972 OPS Are the hitters behind Pierre failing to drive him in? Or is it that Pierre just doesn't reach base all that often to begin with?
July 21, 200323 yr even though Byrd has a better obp, wouldnt you still want him more towards the 5,6, or 7 hole in the lineup?
July 21, 200323 yr They're not? The three batters that have hit behind Pierre pretty much all season are Castillo, Pudge, and Lowell. Castillo with runners on: .348 AVG, .851 OPS Pudge with runners on: .360 AVG, .954 OPS Lowell with runners on: .276 AVG, .972 OPS Are the hitters behind Pierre failing to drive him in? Or is it that Pierre just doesn't reach base all that often to begin with? You don't make sense.You're telling me is up to Pierre to score runs on his own?If het get on base and stealing base but is not scoring is obviusly not Pierre fault.Anyways I wouldn't mind having Byrd for Pierre but Pierre is just has a great character and work habbit.
July 21, 200323 yr You don't make sense.You're telling me is up to Pierre to score runs on his own?If het get on base and stealing base but is not scoring is obviusly not Pierre fault. I'm making two points really. The first is that Pierre doesn't really get on base all that often for a leadoff hitter. The second is that his steals are vastly overrated. If all his stolen bases aren't resulting in any additional runs scored, is it really worth stealing so often, especially when you run the risk of destroying a rally, as he did twice in Saturday's game alone?
July 21, 200323 yr I'm making two points really. The first is that Pierre doesn't really get on base all that often for a leadoff hitter. The second is that his steals are vastly overrated. If all his stolen bases aren't resulting in any additional runs scored, is it really worth stealing so often, especially when you run the risk of destroying a rally, as he did twice in Saturday's game alone? Pierre does get on base.. he the hardest guy in the NL to K but everyone in the 2,3,4 hole can be hitting 300+ but cuz there avg is 300+ doesnt mean that they always push Pierre in... i rather ahve Pierre.. like i said b-4 60+ SB , hardestn man to K , 0-3 HRs , 35-50 RBI , great in CF , 350+ OBP
July 21, 200323 yr i think Saturday was more of a (looking for a word that means: doesnt happen often).... normally his baserunning starts rallies, than kills them and i agree that his obp isnt the best, but he is a tough guy to k, and although is arm is pretty crappy in CF, he can cover alot of ground and that is big in the PRO
July 21, 200323 yr i think Saturday was more of a (looking for a word that means: doesnt happen often).... normally his baserunning starts rallies, than kills them and i agree that his obp isnt the best, but he is a tough guy to k, and although is arm is pretty crappy in CF, he can cover alot of ground and that is big in the PRO yup...
July 21, 200323 yr Pierre does get on base.. he the hardest guy in the NL to K How does the fact that he's hard to K prove that he gets on base? So he puts balls in play. Even with all his balls in play, Pierre's OBP is still only .357. Pretty average for a leadoff hitter. And even worse when you consider that's with no power whatsoever. but everyone in the 2,3,4 hole can be hitting 300+ but cuz there avg is 300+ doesnt mean that they always push Pierre in I guess I'm not making my point clear enough. The fact that Pierre and Castillo have both scored 60 runs this season, despite Pierre having 30 more steals, indicates that his steals haven't been all that valuable to the team. They have not resulted in significantly more runs, even though the hitters behind him are performing at the same rate as they normally do. Think of it like this...How many times has a Pierre stolen base resulted in a Marlins run that they otherwise would not have scored if Pierre didn't steal? Then compare this to the number of times that Pierre has given away an out by getting caught on the basepaths.
July 21, 200323 yr How does the fact that he's hard to K prove that he gets on base? So he puts balls in play. Even with all his balls in play, Pierre's OBP is still only .357. Pretty average for a leadoff hitter. And even worse when you consider that's with no power whatsoever. I guess I'm not making my point clear enough. The fact that Pierre and Castillo have both scored 60 runs this season, despite Pierre having 30 more steals, indicates that his steals haven't been all that valuable to the team. They have not resulted in significantly more runs, even though the hitters behind him are performing at the same rate as they normally do. Think of it like this...How many times has a Pierre stolen base resulted in a Marlins run that they otherwise would not have scored if Pierre didn't steal? Then compare this to the number of times that Pierre has given away an out by getting caught on the basepaths. umm castillo had no power..look now he getting some.. samething will happened with Pierre just take it one step at a time
July 21, 200323 yr Think of it like this...How many times has a Pierre stolen base resulted in a Marlins run that they otherwise would not have scored if Pierre didn't steal? Then compare this to the number of times that Pierre has given away an out by getting caught on the basepaths. 14 times... he giving the marlins 14 outs wow that alot right ? castillo giving the marlins 17 outs ? so what ur point ?
July 21, 200323 yr umm castillo had no power..look now he getting some.. samething will happened with Pierre just take it one step at a time How disappointing...you didn't even address one point in my post :confused Castillo has always shown flashes of power from the right side of the plate. Pierre never has, and no one really expects him to in the future.
July 21, 200323 yr 14 times... he giving the marlins 14 outs wow that alot right ? castillo giving the marlins 17 outs ? so what ur point ? Sigh...same question...How many times has a Pierre stolen base resulted in a Marlins run that they otherwise would not have scored if Pierre didn't steal?
July 21, 200323 yr normally his baserunning starts rallies, than kills them How exactly does his baserunning start rallies? Do his stolen bases cause the Marlins to get hits that they wouldn't have gotten if he hadn't stolen?
July 21, 200323 yr How exactly does his baserunning start rallies? Do his stolen bases cause the Marlins to get hits that they wouldn't have gotten if he hadn't stolen? it starts rallys cuz if he hadnt stolen that base than he wouldnt of score.. or if he wouldnt of stolen the base it could of been a force at 2B.. and castillo had showed power at the right side ? he only had 5 HR at the right side in his career
July 21, 200323 yr it starts rallys cuz if he hadnt stolen that base than he wouldnt of score. How do you know this? How do you know that when Pierre steals a base, he wouldn't have scored anyway, without stealing the base? Hypothetical situation: Pierre is on first with no outs. Pierre steals second base. The next two batters get singles. So Pierre scores a run after stealing a base. But he would've come around to score anyway, even if he hadn't stolen the base. Was stealing the base worth the risk? and castillo had showed power at the right side ? he only had 5 HR at the right side in his career His slugging pct. has always been significantly higher from the right side than from the left side. This year it's just been even higher than usual.
July 21, 200323 yr Rodeo, the way you're making Pierre look as if he's worthless in the leadoff spot. Let me enlight you with some information. Despite Pierre's 44 steals this season, he's only scored 60 runs. This is the same exact amount of runs Castillo has scored, even though Castillo has 30 (30!) less steals. If you actual watched the Fish when their offense was basicly a piece of crap (April to May). Pierre was left on third numerous times because of several reasons. Castillo was struggling, Derrek Lee, the pathetic cleanup hitter (most of the time when Tor "My brain is in my a**" borg was managing), thought that grounding into a double play actually would score a run with 1 out. Hollandsworthless thinking he could reach on an infield single everytime. Most and only production in the lineup came from Sea Bass (Batting 8th), Lowell (Batting 5th) and Pudge (Batting 3rd). I'm not surprised Beinfest didn't pull the trigger. Yea whoopie Beinfest stinks. The three batters that have hit behind Pierre pretty much all season are Castillo, Pudge, and Lowell. Castillo with runners on: .348 AVG, .851 OPS Pudge with runners on: .360 AVG, .954 OPS Lowell with runners on: .276 AVG, .972 OPS Are the hitters behind Pierre failing to drive him in? Or is it that Pierre just doesn't reach base all that often to begin with? Ok hold on here. Castillo wasn't as good in (Early) April, Pudge stunk up the month of May. Lowell wasn't always the cleanup hitter. Btw, here's some info: Pudge in the Month of May: AB: 65 R: 7 H: 11 2B: 3 3B: 0 HR: 2 RBI: 6 BB: 7 SO: 14 AVG: .169 OBP: .250 SLG: .308 OPS: .558 Derrek Lee in the cleanup spot: AB: 56 R: 7 H: 13 2B: 4 3B: 0 HR: 2 RBI: 6 BB: 11 SO: 11 AVG: .232 OBP: .371 SLG: .411 OPS: .782 Yep, lets blame it on Pierre for not going 100mph on Derrek Lee's grounders to SS. The second is that his steals are vastly overrated. If all his stolen bases aren't resulting in any additional runs scored, is it really worth stealing so often Yep, reason is up there ^^ especially when you run the risk of destroying a rally, as he did twice in Saturday's game alone? Well ok he got caught twice but he's ONLY BEEN CAUGHT 10 TIMES IN THE SEASON. Give me a break! It was KERRY FREAKING WOOD on the mound for the Cubs. They would have left Pierre on 1st! I guess I'm not making my point clear enough. The fact that Pierre and Castillo have both scored 60 runs this season, despite Pierre having 30 more steals, indicates that his steals haven't been all that valuable to the team. They have not resulted in significantly more runs, even though the hitters behind him are performing at the same rate as they normally do. Think of it like this...How many times has a Pierre stolen base resulted in a Marlins run that they otherwise would not have scored if Pierre didn't steal? Then compare this to the number of times that Pierre has given away an out by getting caught on the basepaths. Reason is up there ^^^ So lets blame it on Beinfest for acquiring Pierre and Pierre for stealing a base. Maybe an officer will give Pierre a speeding ticket for stealing to much.
July 21, 200323 yr Hypothetical situation: Pierre is on first with no outs. Pierre steals second base. The next two batters get singles. So Pierre scores a run after stealing a base. But he would've come around to score anyway, even if he hadn't stolen the base. Was stealing the base worth the risk? maybe he wuold of been thrown out of home or 3B...
July 21, 200323 yr Rodeo, the way you're making Pierre look as if he's worthless in the leadoff spot. Let me enlight you with some information. If you actual watched the Fish when their offense was basicly a piece of crap (April to May). Pierre was left on third numerous times because of several reasons. Castillo was struggling, Derrek Lee, the pathetic cleanup hitter (most of the time when Tor "My brain is in my a**" borg was managing), thought that grounding into a double play actually would score a run with 1 out. Hollandsworthless thinking he could reach on an infield single everytime. Most and only production in the lineup came from Sea Bass (Batting 8th), Lowell (Batting 5th) and Pudge (Batting 3rd). Yea whoopie Beinfest stinks. The three batters that have hit behind Pierre pretty much all season are Castillo, Pudge, and Lowell. Castillo with runners on: .348 AVG, .851 OPS Pudge with runners on: .360 AVG, .954 OPS Lowell with runners on: .276 AVG, .972 OPS Are the hitters behind Pierre failing to drive him in? Or is it that Pierre just doesn't reach base all that often to begin with? Ok hold on here. Castillo wasn't as good in (Early) April, Pudge stunk up the month of May. Lowell wasn't always the cleanup hitter. Btw, here's some info: Pudge in the Month of May: AB: 65 R: 7 H: 11 2B: 3 3B: 0 HR: 2 RBI: 6 BB: 7 SO: 14 AVG: .169 OBP: .250 SLG: .308 OPS: .558 Derrek Lee in the cleanup spot: AB: 56 R: 7 H: 13 2B: 4 3B: 0 HR: 2 RBI: 6 BB: 11 SO: 11 AVG: .232 OBP: .371 SLG: .411 OPS: .782 Yep, lets blame it on Pierre for not going 100mph on Derrek Lee's grounders to SS. Yep, reason is up there ^^ Well ok he got caught twice but he's ONLY BEEN CAUGHT 10 TIMES IN THE SEASON. Give me a break! It was KERRY FREAKING WOOD on the mound for the Cubs. They would have left Pierre on 1st! I guess I'm not making my point clear enough. The fact that Pierre and Castillo have both scored 60 runs this season, despite Pierre having 30 more steals, indicates that his steals haven't been all that valuable to the team. They have not resulted in significantly more runs, even though the hitters behind him are performing at the same rate as they normally do. Think of it like this...How many times has a Pierre stolen base resulted in a Marlins run that they otherwise would not have scored if Pierre didn't steal? Then compare this to the number of times that Pierre has given away an out by getting caught on the basepaths. Reason is up there ^^^ So lets blame it on Beinfest for acquiring Pierre and Pierre for stealing a base. Maybe an officer will give Pierre a speeding ticket for stealing to much. there u go atleast someone is agreeing with me... and i like the Derrek Lee Piere 1000mph LOL
July 21, 200323 yr If you actual watched the Fish I do watch the Fish. Probably just as much as you do. Just because I use stats doesn't mean I don't watch the games. when their offense was basicly a piece of crap (April to May). Pierre was left on third numerous times because of several reasons. Castillo was struggling, Derrek Lee, the pathetic cleanup hitter (most of the time when Tor "My brain is in my a**" borg was managing), thought that grounding into a double play actually would score a run with 1 out. Hollandsworthless thinking he could reach on an infield single everytime. Most and only production in the lineup came from Sea Bass (Batting 8th), Lowell (Batting 5th) and Pudge (Batting 3rd). First of all, blaming Pierre's lack of runs on DLee is ridiculous and illogical. Over 80% of DLee's at-bats this season have come from the 5th or 6th spots in the lineup. That means there are, at a minimum, three batters that bat between Pierre and Lee. Lee rarely, if ever, comes to the plate while Pierre is on base. Hollandsworth also hit towards the bottom of the order, so he has no relevance in this argument. Second, why would you only focus on the months of April and May? So Pudge was really bad in May. He was also insanely good in June. If Pierre was stranded more often than usual in May like you claim, then by that standard, he was also driven in more often than usual in June and July. Ok hold on here. Castillo wasn't as good in (Early) April, Pudge stunk up the month of May. Lowell wasn't always the cleanup hitter. Btw, here's some info: Again, see above point. Why would you mention the exceptionally bad months and yet not bring up the exceptionally good months? Yep, lets blame it on Pierre for not going 100mph on Derrek Lee's grounders to SS. Again, Pierre is rarely ever on base when Lee is batting. Well ok he got caught twice but he's ONLY BEEN CAUGHT 10 TIMES IN THE SEASON. How many times has he scored a run that wouldn't have scored if he hadn't stolen? Is it more than 10? I'm not sure. You could probably figure out the exact number if you went through every box score from the season...but it's kinda late.
July 21, 200323 yr Over 80% of DLee's at-bats this season have come from the 5th or 6th spots in the lineup. DLee was the 4th batter from the 1st day of spring trinaing till Jack took over.. so 80% off Lee AB r not in the 5th or 6th hole
July 21, 200323 yr DLee was the 4th batter from the 1st day of spring trinaing till Jack took over.. so 80% off Lee AB r not in the 5th or 6th hole Oh brother. If you'd actually bother to look things up...ah, forget it... c/o ESPN.com... Derrek Lee: Batting 3rd: 4 AB Batting 4th: 56 AB Batting 5th: 97 AB Batting 6th: 181 AB Do the math. That's 82% ABs coming from the 5th or 6th slot.
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