To suggest they should start Dillon more is not a great idea when you typically have Conine and Easley on the bench, who are both better options if you're giving someone a day off. When Aguila was rotting on the bench, not as many people complained. If someone deserves serious playing time it is Willingham, who would be of some use to the Marlins. Dillon's role is to be coming off the bench, which means as long as Jack is managing, he will only enter occasionally as a PH, and a rare start once in a while.

I'm sure it wouldn't be a great experience for Dillon if he expected to play every day and ended up being benched, but he knew he'd be a backup when he came up here.

 

We're in a tough spot right now- 4 games back amidst other teams in the NL. This is not the time I want all my backups playing. I want the guys who give me the best chance to win the game, and despite what he's shown this year, I think Lowell is that guy (at third, anyway).

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people here think Josh Willingham "deserves" (operative word in this post) anything, nevermind being catapulted over established major league players to start in right field when he isn't getting a second's playing time at that position at Albuquerque.

 

By now some people reading this are fuming, so be it.

 

I'm not anti-Willingham, and the guy is doing an extraordinary job at AAA this season, but he doesn't "deserve" to be on the major league active roster anymore than anyone else who is playing well, for example Chris Aguila who is outhitting him by 30 points and has proven he can play the position "deserves" to be.

 

The Marlins have made their decision about who will be catching now and in the future, it's Paul LoDuca and Matt Treanor. There's no room for Willingham for the foreseeable future. Better to let him continue to put on the offensive display he has so far this season at Albuquerque (although he's showing signs of cooling off, batting .167 in his last five games) where he may draw interest from a ML GM in search of a backup catcher who he believes he can mold him into a future everyday player, and hence have value, than to be the number three guy for the Fish or worse, come up, play out of position, struggle at the plate and ruin any chance the Marlins have of trading him for someone of value.

 

I used Chris Aguila as an example (above) for a reason. He should be a good example to all of us, batting .368 since returning to the PCL, that hitting in the bigs and hitting in AAA are two entirely different things.

 

I like both players but unless Admin Beinfest plans on blowing up the Fish and starting over, neither are going to get any significant playing time here in 2005 (or at least until the September call-ups).

 

It isn't that Jack misuses rookies, it's just (assuming Encarnacion is gone at the time one of the kids come up) in a choice between either and Jeff Conine in right field, Niner is going to win out regardless of who the manager is. The same is true of Dillon. There isn't a manager in baseball who is managing a contending team, who would sit down Lowell and not put Cabrera at third before Joe Dillon. Just isn't going to happen.

 

And it isn't going to happen for Willingham either, certainly not in right field. And probably not in left either.

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people here think Josh Willingham "deserves" (operative word in this post) anything, nevermind being catapulted over established major league players to start in right field when he isn't getting a second's playing time at that position at Albuquerque.

 

By now some people reading this are fuming, so be it.

 

I'm not anti-Willingham, and the guy is doing an extraordinary job at AAA this season, but he doesn't "deserve" to be on the major league active roster anymore than anyone else who is playing well, for example Chris Aguila who is outhitting him by 30 points and has proven he can play the position "deserves" to be.

 

The Marlins have made their decision about who will be catching now and in the future, it's Paul LoDuca and Matt Treanor. There's no room for Willingham for the foreseeable future. Better to let him continue to put on the offensive display he has so far this season at Albuquerque (although he's showing signs of cooling off, batting .167 in his last five games) where he may draw interest from a ML GM in search of a backup catcher who he believes he can mold into a future everyday player, and hence have value, than to be the number three guy for the Fish or worse, come up, play out of position, struggle at the plate and ruin any chance the Marlins have of trading him for someone of value.

 

I used Chris Aguila as an example (above) for a reason. He should be a good example to all of us, batting .368 since returning to the PCL, that hitting in the bigs and hitting in AAA are two entirely different things.

 

I like both players but unless Admin Beinfest plans on blowing up the Fish and starting over, neither are going to get any significant playing time here in 2005 (or at least until the September call-ups).

 

It isn't that Jack misuses rookies, it's just in a choice between (assuming Encarnacion is gone at the time either of the kids come up) them and Jeff Conine in right field, Niner is going to win out regardless of who the manager is. The same is true of Dillon. There isn't a manager in baseball who is managing a contending team, who would sit down Lowell and not put Cabrera at third before Joe Dillon. Just isn't going to happen.

 

And it isn't going to happen for Willingham either, certainly not in right field. And probably not in left either.

818948[/snapback]

 

Amen.

 

:notworthy

For the life of me I don't understand why so many people here think Josh Willingham "deserves" (operative word in this post) anything, nevermind being catapulted over established major league players to start in right field when he isn't getting a second's playing time at that position at Albuquerque.

 

By now some people reading this are fuming, so be it.

 

I'm not anti-Willingham, and the guy is doing an extraordinary job at AAA this season, but he doesn't "deserve" to be on the major league active roster anymore than anyone else who is playing well, for example Chris Aguila who is outhitting him by 30 points and has proven he can play the position "deserves" to be.

 

The Marlins have made their decision about who will be catching now and in the future, it's Paul LoDuca and Matt Treanor. There's no room for Willingham for the foreseeable future. Better to let him continue to put on the offensive display he has so far this season at Albuquerque (although he's showing signs of cooling off, batting .167 in his last five games) where he may draw interest from a ML GM in search of a backup catcher who he believes he can mold him into a future everyday player, and hence have value, than to be the number three guy for the Fish or worse, come up, play out of position, struggle at the plate and ruin any chance the Marlins have of trading him for someone of value.

 

I used Chris Aguila as an example (above) for a reason. He should be a good example to all of us, batting .368 since returning to the PCL, that hitting in the bigs and hitting in AAA are two entirely different things.

 

And it isn't going to happen for Willingham either, certainly not in right field. And probably not in left either.

818948[/snapback]

ok.

 

Aguila may be "outhitting" Willy by .30 points but all his other numbers are dwarfed in comparison. I really cant argue about the fact that Willy is playing catcher right now(thats beyond me) but he can certainly play the corner OF spots(again no clue why he is staying behind the plate). Willingham "deserves" to be on a major league roster. It is pretty rare that someone lights up AAA and stays down in the system all year. And while Aguila is a nice player, he isnt nearly the polished hitter as Willingham is. And while hitting in AAA is certainly different from the bigs, Aguila got all of 16 at bats in about 2 months or so. Cant really find a groove at all.

 

Im hoping we make a move, bring up Josh and let him play. We could use the spark.

We're all amazed that Willingham hasn't be tutored and given a chance to play the OF this season, but he has hasn't.

 

I don't know what other conclusion you can come to (regarding the thnking of the Marlins FO) except that they see him exclusively as tradebait and believe with a ton of good OF prospects in the minors (on every team) that a big-bopping catching prospect has inherently more value on the open market and they're grooming him for just that eventuality.

 

It also seems clear the Marlins have Hermida penciled in as their outfielder of the future and that may further block Josh. While I understand and share your frustration, from what I can see they have a plan and they're sticking to it.

 

As for Aguila vs Willingham, which in itself may be an unfair comparison, I think you'd have to agree Aguila is the more complete (major league ready) ballplayer right now. If Encarnacion was traded and the next day Conine tore a hamstring, I'd bet Aguila would playing RF before Willingham.

And yet Miguel Cabrera was promoted from AA and put in the lineup. Given all the rumors swirling about Enc being offered to the Nationals, the most likely answer is that Enc is being played to showcase him for a trade. Whether that means Conine would start or they'd call up Willingham or someone else remains to be seen. To say Jack doesn't play rookies requires you to explain why Cabrera was starting instead of Encarnacion at the end of 2003. It also ignores the front offices' part in determining who plays as well as the impact salaries can have on that decision.

 

I do question the idea of calling up young guys who sit on your bench and never play like Aguila. They usually don't have the patience or mindset to handle that role like an older player (Lenny) who knows his limitations and is comfortable coming off the bench. They'd be better off playing regularly in the minors.

Must admit I've enjoyed this thread. Good arguments!

And yet Miguel Cabrera was promoted from AA and put in the lineup. Given all the rumors swirling about Enc being offered to the Nationals, the most likely answer is that Enc is being played to showcase him for a trade. Whether that means Conine would start or they'd call up Willingham or someone else remains to be seen. To say Jack doesn't play rookies requires you to explain why Cabrera was starting instead of Encarnacion at the end of 2003. It also ignores the front offices' part in determining who plays as well as the impact salaries can have on that decision.

 

I do question the idea of calling up young guys who sit on your bench and never play like Aguila. They usually don't have the patience or mindset to handle that role like an older player (Lenny) who knows his limitations and is comfortable coming off the bench. They'd be better off playing regularly in the minors.

819032[/snapback]

 

The difference (between Cabrera being called up and used vs. others not getting playing time) is, at least to me, two-fold.

 

First Cabrera's skills were almost legendary by the time he made it to the show, and second the Marlins were not in contention, or were not thought of being in contention when Cabrera came up.

 

It would be much more risky, considering the high expectations for the 2005 Marlins, to bring up and play a defensively untested Willingham (or to a lesser degree, Aguila or fillintheblank) in the outfield.

 

I'm not saying I agree with all these decisions being made but this is how I see it.

 

Were it not for the questions surrounding the stadium, the obvious problems confronting the team's pitching corps in 2006, and the need to continue to build the fan base, just for the fun of watching young kids mature, I wouldn't mind seeing the team blown up and guys like Willingham and Aguila (since those are the two we're discussing here) playing everyday. But in order to do that you need to move Lowell and several others in the starting lineup and that just isn't going to happen I don't believe.

And yet Miguel Cabrera was promoted from AA and put in the lineup.? Given all the rumors swirling about Enc being offered to the Nationals, the most likely answer is that Enc is being played to showcase him for a trade.? Whether that means Conine would start or they'd call up Willingham or someone else remains to be seen.? To say Jack doesn't play rookies requires you to explain why Cabrera was starting instead of Encarnacion at the end of 2003.? It also ignores the front offices' part in determining who plays as well as the impact salaries can have on that decision.

 

I do question the idea of calling up young guys who sit on your bench and never play like Aguila.? They usually don't have the patience or mindset to handle that role like an older player (Lenny) who knows his limitations and is comfortable coming off the bench.? They'd be better off playing regularly in the minors.

819032[/snapback]

 

The difference (between Cabrera being called up and used vs. others not getting playing time) is, at least to me, two-fold.

 

First Cabrera's skills were almost legendary by the time he made it to the show, and second the Marlins were not in contention, or were not thought of being in contention when Cabrera came up.

 

It would be much more risky, considering the high expectations for the 2005 Marlins, to bring up and play a defensively untested Willingham (or to a lesser degree, Aguila or fillintheblank) in the outfield.

 

I'm not saying I agree with all these decisions being made but this is how I see it.

 

Were it not for the questions surrounding the stadium, the obvious problems confronting the team's pitching corps in 2006, and the need to continue to build the fan base, just for the fun of watching young kids mature, I wouldn't mind seeing the team blown up and guys like Willingham and Aguila (since those are the two we're discussing here) playing everyday. But in order to do that you need to move Lowell and several others in the starting lineup and that just isn't going to happen I don't believe.

819045[/snapback]

Exactly. The kids in the minors aren't going to get called up and play unless we move starters. There's just too much money tied up in those starters for that to happen. Given how Willis and Cabrera came in and played, and how Casey played for McKeon in Cincy, I don't think the argument some are making that Jack is a priori against playing younger players rings true.

Folk, I'm not saying this to be argumentative, but I don't think it's the money per se, but rather the thought that "who would you rather have down the stretch and into the playoffs, guys who have been there and know what's expected of them to win or kids who don't"?

 

Say what you want about a Jeff Conine or a Mike Lowell but you know that they are winners and as we learned in 2003, they know how to win.

Agreed. I don't think salaries are the overriding concern, but I think they at least play a part. I think you're right about the established players for several reasons. You know what you're getting with them, they're proven winners, and the organization would take a massive PR hit if they start dumping starters. Too many people would interpret it as a white flag or a fire sale. That said, I think they need to make some kind of move with the offense, whether its moving Enc, Pierre, or Lowell, or just changing hitting coaches. I'm against calling up a minor leaguer if they aren't going to play him. Either call them up and give them a shot, leave them in the minors to get more experience, or trade them to improve the club. They're only hindering their development by calling them up and sitting them for weeks at a time. Better to go with guys like Cangelosi, Eisenreich, or Harris who know their roles, accept them, and can be productive.

Agreed. I don't think salaries are the overriding concern, but I think they at least play a part. I think you're right about the established players for several reasons. You know what you're getting with them, they're proven winners, and the organization would take a massive PR hit if they start dumping starters. Too many people would interpret it as a white flag or a fire sale. That said, I think they need to make some kind of move with the offense, whether its moving Enc, Pierre, or Lowell, or just changing hitting coaches. I'm against calling up a minor leaguer if they aren't going to play him. Either call them up and give them a shot, leave them in the minors to get more experience, or trade them to improve the club. They're only hindering their development by calling them up and sitting them for weeks at a time. Better to go with guys like Cangelosi, Eisenreich, or Harris who know their roles, accept them, and can be productive.

819158[/snapback]

 

:thumbup

i really dont understand the logic behid this idea, just when mikey lowell starts to heat up

Why was Joe Dillon brought up? Why isn't he being used (beyond an occasional pinch-hit?) What a miserable un-productive experience it must be for him.

Hope Willingham gets traded so he doesn't have to put up with this mismanagement.

Fire McKeon. Let's get going.

818294[/snapback]

 

You could say the same thing for Chris Aguila... oh wait *sign*

heres why dillon isnt starting.

 

 

818711[/snapback]

 

That picture has always made me laugh, just look at the look on Mike's face.

haha accord i love mikeys grin in that picture looks like he just got laid.