Team not following title form

 

Will the differences between this year's team and the 2003 Marlins, who won the World Series, spell doom for Florida's playoff hopes as the Marlins chase the wild card?

 

BY KEVIN BAXTER

 

[email protected]

 

 

For Jack McKeon, the lessons of 2003 are always close at hand.

 

Ask him about his team's playoff hopes this season and he'll tell you a story about the 2003 team. Ask him about the lack of pennant-race experience for stars such as Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca and A.J. Burnett, and he'll tell you a story about the 2003 team.

 

And ask him if the Marlins have any reason to hope they can make up a two-game deficit in the wild-card standings with 12 games to go, and he'll tell you a story about the 2003 team.

 

But the differences between then and now far outweigh the similarities.

 

With 12 games left in 2003, the Marlins had 83 wins and led the wild-card race. This year, they're 79-71 and third in the standings behind Houston and Philadelphia.

 

With 12 games to go in 2003, the Marlins were coming off a streak in which they had won nine of 12 games, including seven in a row. This team hasn't won more than six in a row all season and heads into tonight's series opener with the New York Mets at Shea Stadium having lost four of their past five and six of their past 10.

 

But the most noticeable difference might be in the clubhouse. In 2003, the Marlins had a lively bunch of role players led by Brian Banks, Andy Fox and Mike Redmond who contributed little on the field but who combined to keep their teammates loose and laughing.

 

As a result the 2003 team won 19 games in their final at-bat.

 

This year, the Marlins are 4-69 when tied or trailing after eight innings.

 

Banks and Fox never played for the Marlins again after 2003, Redmond left for Minnesota as a free agent last winter, and another important clubhouse contributor, third base coach Ozzie Guillen, became manager of the Chicago White Sox. That has left the Marlins' clubhouse with all the humor and camaraderie of an accountant's convention, which might help explain the team's maddening inconsistency down the stretch.

 

''You've got guys with different personalities,'' said Jeff Conine, who credited the attitude of the 2003 team for its success. ``Those guys talked a lot and joked a lot and that was their personality. And we don't have them any more.

 

``So obviously it's going to be a little bit more subdued no matter how much you're winning. Guys like that on a team are nice to have because they can make light of very difficult situations and [say] `Hey, laugh it off and move on.''

 

Mike Lowell agrees, yet wonders how much of a difference that would have made this season.

 

MISSING PIECES

 

''Those guys are missed because they were clubhouse unifiers,'' he said. ``They're missed because they were veteran guys who knew their bench role as opposed to young guys. But I don't know if that translates into wins and losses with the way we're playing right now.

 

``They were fun guys, but we were also at a time where everything was clicking for us down the stretch too.''

 

Still, there's no doubt the clubhouse is different. In 2003, players competed to see who could get to work first and often stayed long after games to talk baseball. Sunday, the day after a devastating loss to the Philadelphia Phillies, the clubhouse was nearly empty 90 minutes before batting practice and starting outfielder Juan Encarnacion was still out of uniform five minutes before the team's mandatory stretch on the field.

 

''This team,'' said one Marlin who was here in 2003, ``has changed.''

 

For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''

 

''In 2003,'' he continued, ``we took advantage of our opportunities. We haven't done that the whole year. [The bench guys] were key guys. They kept everybody loose and alive. They were very instrumental.

 

``[but] they weren't playing. The guys out there are on the firing line, the actors on the stage, have got to do it.''

 

And McKeon figures it will take 89 wins -- or 10 wins in their final 12 games -- for these Marlins to have any chance of matching the 2003 team in the most important category: reaching the playoffs. The Marlins haven't won 10 times in a 12-game stretch all season.

 

Which doesn't mean they can't do it now.

 

''We're not doubting ourselves,'' Delgado said. ``I'm just taking it one game at a time. I look at [tonight's] and after that I look at Wednesday's game.''

I'm really starting to grow tired of the team's "Wow, we were so awesome in 2003" approach to the stretch this year. Try to win this year dewds, stop talking about the glory days.

The Marlins should hire Carlos Mencia as a utility IF. :plain

I'm really starting to grow tired of the team's "Wow, we were so awesome in 2003" approach to the stretch this year. Try to win this year dewds, stop talking about the glory days.

954855[/snapback]

 

That could very easily be accomplished by getting rid of Lowell, Conine and McKeon. Problem is, that's P.R. suicide.

Those attitudes aren't gonna get them anywhere. They need to hold their heads up high and believe in themselves instead of doubting, because we still do have a chance of making this thing!

The key word here is "belief". If they don't believe in themselves, they won't make it... simple as that. Stop comparing '03 to '05 and look at the present, and work as a TEAM! 2 games behind leading the wildcard isn't exactly too far out of reach. They need another wake up call!

what a bunch of BS

 

this is the most irritating comment

 

"For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''"

 

How would LoDuca and Carlos feel about that?

"For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''"

954887[/snapback]

That guarentees McKeon will not be here next year. I don't know how he can include Carlos in that statement when he has busten his arse to try to get into the playoffs this year. Regardless, managers shouldn't say that about any of their players who go out and produce everyday.

when did Derrek Lee get the key hit(besides game 6 of the nlcs)?

"For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''"

954887[/snapback]

That guarentees McKeon will not be here next year. I don't know how he can include Carlos in that statement when he has busten his arse to try to get into the playoffs this year. Regardless, managers shouldn't say that about any of their players who go out and produce everyday.

954895[/snapback]

 

I agree with you. Carlos has been so much better offensively than Derek Lee. The guy could end up with 115 RBI this season after missing like 17 games. That's production.

"For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''"

954887[/snapback]

That guarentees McKeon will not be here next year. I don't know how he can include Carlos in that statement when he has busten his arse to try to get into the playoffs this year. Regardless, managers shouldn't say that about any of their players who go out and produce everyday.

954895[/snapback]

 

What complicates things is that the most vocal gripers to the media about "chemistry" are Conine, Lowell, Pierre (who was that 'anonymous' player from the '03 team) and McKeon. All four of those guys are loved down here by the casual (read, bandwagon, or if you prefer, stupid) fans. Anyone who doubts needs to look no further than Friday night when Lowell pinch-hit to a standing ovation, and was cheered after a meaningless sac-fly. This would be a whole lot easier if the fans would turn on Lowell after this abysmal year, but indications are that trading him would be a hit to the fan-base.

 

As far as changing ths up, and getting the whiners out of here, only McKeon is in a position where the Marlins can say to him "go to the front office." The Marlins can't eat a whole lot of Lowell's salary, they can't non-tender Pierre, and they can't let Conine walk when it's arguable that he's been our third most productive hitter, and certainly our fourth most productive hitter (and probably our best "situational" hitter). It isn't likely that he'll retire, so he's probably back next year.

 

This team badly needs a shake-up, but between a barren free-agent market and a lot of players who are underperforming their contracts (read: untradeable), there won't be much of a shakeup beyond two holes (at the most three) being filled by new faces.

when did Derrek Lee get the key hit(besides game 6 of the nlcs)?

954910[/snapback]

 

All those three run homers when the game was already competitvely decided weren't key?!?!? No way...

bs ... since when was DLee clutch for the fish

"For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''"

954887[/snapback]

That guarentees McKeon will not be here next year. I don't know how he can include Carlos in that statement when he has busten his arse to try to get into the playoffs this year. Regardless, managers shouldn't say that about any of their players who go out and produce everyday.

954895[/snapback]

 

What complicates things is that the most vocal gripers to the media about "chemistry" are Conine, Lowell, Pierre (who was that 'anonymous' player from the '03 team) and McKeon. All four of those guys are loved down here by the casual (read, bandwagon, or if you prefer, stupid) fans. Anyone who doubts needs to look no further than Friday night when Lowell pinch-hit to a standing ovation, and was cheered after a meaningless sac-fly. This would be a whole lot easier if the fans would turn on Lowell after this abysmal year, but indications are that trading him would be a hit to the fan-base.

 

As far as changing ths up, and getting the whiners out of here, only McKeon is in a position where the Marlins can say to him "go to the front office." The Marlins can't eat a whole lot of Lowell's salary, they can't non-tender Pierre, and they can't let Conine walk when it's arguable that he's been our third most productive hitter, and certainly our fourth most productive hitter. It isn't likely that he'll retire, so he's probably back next year.

 

This team badly needs a shake-up, but between a barren free-agent market and a lot of players who are underperforming their contracts (read: untradeable), there won't be much of a shakeup beyond two holes (at the most three) being filled by new faces.

954923[/snapback]

 

How do you know it was JP that made the "anonymous" comment? All I know is that I definitely want the following players to be back next year. Pitchers: Dontrelle, Josh, Vargas, Alfie, Jones and perhaps Moehler. Position players: Miggy, Carlos, Luis, Lo Duca, Easley, and, obviously, Hermida. Try to build up from there. I really wouldn't mind trading JP, re-signing Encarnacion, moving Encarnacion to center, and finding another left fielder. Trade Lowell. This would mean our lineup would be:

 

1. Luis

2. Hermida

3. Miggy

4. Carlos

5. Ency/LF

6. Ency/LF

7. Lo Duca

8. SS (either Sea Bass or Andino)

 

If we can find a left fielder with some pop, I think that's a good lineup. If we keep Juan Pierre, we better hope that either 1) he goes back to being himself or 2) Hermida produces as well as Ency did this year. Otherwise, if JP has another year like this one and Hermida struggles as a rookie, we'll have two gaping holes in our lineup.

"For McKeon, the missing ingredients are Derrek Lee and Pudge Rodriguez. Although the Marlins have gotten almost as much production out of their replacements, Delgado and Lo Duca, McKeon said ``Pudge and Derrek Lee always seemed to get the key hit.''"

954887[/snapback]

That guarentees McKeon will not be here next year. I don't know how he can include Carlos in that statement when he has busten his arse to try to get into the playoffs this year. Regardless, managers shouldn't say that about any of their players who go out and produce everyday.

954895[/snapback]

 

What complicates things is that the most vocal gripers to the media about "chemistry" are Conine, Lowell, Pierre (who was that 'anonymous' player from the '03 team) and McKeon. All four of those guys are loved down here by the casual (read, bandwagon, or if you prefer, stupid) fans. Anyone who doubts needs to look no further than Friday night when Lowell pinch-hit to a standing ovation, and was cheered after a meaningless sac-fly. This would be a whole lot easier if the fans would turn on Lowell after this abysmal year, but indications are that trading him would be a hit to the fan-base.

 

As far as changing ths up, and getting the whiners out of here, only McKeon is in a position where the Marlins can say to him "go to the front office." The Marlins can't eat a whole lot of Lowell's salary, they can't non-tender Pierre, and they can't let Conine walk when it's arguable that he's been our third most productive hitter, and certainly our fourth most productive hitter. It isn't likely that he'll retire, so he's probably back next year.

 

This team badly needs a shake-up, but between a barren free-agent market and a lot of players who are underperforming their contracts (read: untradeable), there won't be much of a shakeup beyond two holes (at the most three) being filled by new faces.

954923[/snapback]

 

How do you know it was JP that made the "anonymous" comment? All I know is that I definitely want the following players to be back next year. Pitchers: Dontrelle, Josh, Vargas, Alfie, Jones and perhaps Moehler. Position players: Miggy, Carlos, Luis, Lo Duca, Easley, and, obviously, Hermida.

954932[/snapback]

 

Jones won't be back, not when the only area of depth on the F.A. market is the back-end of the bullpen. IMO, we'll make a token bid to Wagner (if for no other reason than to make the Mets pay more for him), go after Urbina, and probably BJ Ryan before we look to Jones. I love the guy, but he isn't an amazing closer, he's a good closer with amazing numbers...there's a difference. Yes, he's probably the team MVP, but I don't think he's a lock to be back. If he's back, great.

 

As for the Pierre thing, trust me, it was him. He had the same gripe to the PB Post back in June when the whole "Fire McKeon" movement started, and the story was broke by the Post. Pierre was more than happy to be a named source then. Kind of like we knew Lowell was the unnamed source earlier in the year because he had the same rant in '04.

I'm really starting to grow tired of the team's "Wow, we were so awesome in 2003" approach to the stretch this year. Try to win this year dewds, stop talking about the glory days.

954855[/snapback]

Seriously. What good is it doing looking back? We won the WS...great. But it's been 2 seasons...move on already and stop comparing everything to that team. This is getting ridiculous.

Im just throwing this out in the air, but what would you guys think of the fish trading for Milton Bradley to play cf if they do decide to ship Pierre out of here.

Im just throwing this out in the air, but what would you guys think of the fish trading for Milton Bradley to play cf if they do decide to ship Pierre out of here.

954945[/snapback]

 

If it's Pierre for Bradley straight up, we got robbed, but I'd have no problem with Bradley being here. I'm more inclined to the Lowell for Bradley swap (which was floating around a few days ago).

IT'S NOT 2003, DAMMIT

 

Has anyone else besides me noticed the calendar switch? s***.

 

The Phillies and Astros aren't playing for 2 years ago, why should we?

IT'S NOT 2003, DAMMIT

 

Has anyone else besides me noticed the calendar switch? s***.

 

The Phillies and Astros aren't playing for 2 years ago, why should we?

954958[/snapback]

i was going to post that until i read the whole thread. im sick of this team living in the past.

Im just throwing this out in the air, but what would you guys think of the fish trading for Milton Bradley to play cf if they do decide to ship Pierre out of here.

954945[/snapback]

 

If it's Pierre for Bradley straight up, we got robbed, but I'd have no problem with Bradley being here. I'm more inclined to the Lowell for Bradley swap (which was floating around a few days ago).

954953[/snapback]

 

Not a bad ideal. Move Pierre to LF, where his noodle arm won't matter as much. Bradley in CF. Hermida in RF. If JP gets back to form, that's a pretty good outfield.

 

1. Pierre

2. Castillo

3. Miggy

4. Carlos

5. Bradley

6. Lo Duca

7. Hermida

8. SS

 

Not a bad lineup.

It's true that McKeon's comparison to the 2003 team is tired and at this point useless. This is not 2003, and this team has not played like them at all.

 

It's time to give up on that and start talking about the legacy of the 2005 team.

IT'S NOT 2003, DAMMIT

 

Has anyone else besides me noticed the calendar switch? s***.

 

The Phillies and Astros aren't playing for 2 years ago, why should we?

954958[/snapback]

Juanky for manager :notworthy