Isnt basic law based on fear?

 

Most people dont commit crimes because they are fearful of the punishmnet they will recieve.

Interesting point by f_m. This a theological battle within christianity in which some believe that a person like gandhi even tho he doesnt worship christ he by his actions lives by what would be christs teachings, then you have christ believers who dont really live it. Who will be 'saved' here? Its a major battle within the faiht IMO

 

 

Dood! Don't go off topic or Passion will yell at you. :lol

 

It's the frustrating thing about religion. Few are willing to concede and allow others in. It's like other religious followers are screwed for being born in a society where a fake God is being worshipped and thus are destined to burn in hell for their sins.

Think about me often?

 

And I have always believed that if someone is born or is in a place where they have never known of Jesus or God, then they can not face eternal punishment.

 

 

That is a very interesting thought. My bible study group at work was talking about this just last night - do you think when Jesus was crucified and descended into hell that he ministered there? I think so. I would hope so. It obviously wouldn't be fair for people like the Persians to be automatically damned if they had never heard of the God of the Hebrews, no?

What if someone does have the opportunity to know Jesus Christ, outright rejects him as being nothing but a mortal man, denies the existence of God, yet is one of the most moral men of all time? For me, those who say he is going to hell are the precise reason I hate organized religion.

 

To say one must know Christ(and I assume this is said literally and not in the sense of knowing his teachings) or be a follower of him and his father to find their way into heaven is to make Christ into a tyrant. He who does not follow me shall be punished. I really believe Christ never wanted anyone to believe in him or God. I think he just wanted people to do good, regardless of their beliefs. It was man,(and this is something many Christians are unaware of or choose to ignore) that destroyed Christ. Man created the inquisitions. Man created the trinity. Man, actually the Greeks, created hell. And IMO, man created the idea that you have to know Christ and be a follower of his to avoid hell.

 

IMO Christ, or Christ like figures, represent one thing. The belief in the golden rule. Do onto others as you would do onto them. Christ and Gandhi being the ultimate examples by sacrificing themselves for man.

 

 

 

It's not knowing Christ that saves you, Jesus said, it's accepting that he is the way. It goes hand in hand.

Isnt basic law based on fear?

 

Most people dont commit crimes because they are fearful of the punishmnet they will recieve.

 

 

It depends on who you ask.

 

Hobbes says you go into the original contract because you're fearful of what other egoists will do in the state of nature and thus enter into an agreement with the other egoists that "each freedom for another as one would have towards themself" (the Golden Rule basically).

 

Locke says it's because you just want to get out of the state of nature and to be able to have contracts that will be honored (so there's power behind contractual obligations and punishment of those who break them).

Isnt basic law based on fear?

 

Most people dont commit crimes because they are fearful of the punishmnet they will recieve.

 

If we see religion that way, then isnt God no different than a tyrant? If I ask God why I should follow him why I cant sleep with multiple women, and he threatens me with pain, then how is he different from Saddam? God only becomes as right and wise as his threats and power.

 

It's not knowing Christ that saves you, Jesus said, it's accepting that he is the way. It goes hand in hand.

 

Could you clarify that or explain it further?

 

It depends on who you ask.

 

Hobbes says you go into the original contract because you're fearful of what other egoists will do in the state of nature and thus enter into an agreement with the other egoists that "each freedom for another as one would have towards themself" (the Golden Rule basically).

 

Locke says it's because you just want to get out of the state of nature and to be able to have contracts that will be honored (so there's power behind contractual obligations and punishment of those who break them).

 

 

Yep, laws originate under social contract theory. Good explanation.

Let me ask you, Buckeye:

 

 

 

What evidence is there that there isn't a god? Rather than talking about how there isn't, why don't you back it up?

Let me ask you, Buckeye:

 

 

 

What evidence is there that there isn't a god? Rather than talking about how there isn't, why don't you back it up?

 

 

I told you I was agnostic. Heh. Guess you didn't get it.

 

I take it you want the straight up atheist argument, right? I'll go with one of the easiest so I'll say the problem of evil.

 

How can we have an all-knowing, all loving benificiently PERFECT being that is God, if there is evil in the world. In so much that God is all knowing, all loving, etc., then there cannot be evil. It is impossible. Not only that, but there cannot be a hell. If God is all-good then it's RIDICULOUS to say he'd let hell still exist since, you know, he's all good, all-powerful and hell kind of puts a reign on that all-powerful thing. Basically, if God ALLOWS there to be a hell, it goes against his all-goodness. OR, if hell exists independant of God then he's not all-powerful and this cannot be God.

 

It's a simple philosophical argument called P then Q, not Q, then not P. Here goes:

 

1. If God exists then there can in no way shape or form be evil in the world (as above state it's against God's nature and since God created everything, I really hope you get this picture) -If P, then Q.

 

2. There IS evil in the world -not Q

 

3. Therefore there cannot be a God -therefore no P

 

Now, keep in mind this is but ONE argument pertaining to the paradox of God. There are many, many, many, more. I've been through it a thousand times. However, I don't buy it.

 

On the other hand, I don't buy theism's answers even less. The design theory, etc. is all fine and dandy in argument form (just as is the above argument). But, when you get to hardcore theists and the organized religions I'm in a perpetual state of bafflement as to how anyone could buy it. Number one because they purport to be men of God and yet some of their number take money and molest children. Where's God in that?

 

I'm not a fan of Christianity or Catholicism. My thinking tends to go more towards the Tibetan Buddhist thought that we cannot explain a concept of a God. It is beyond words and beyond understanding. On some level it's a zen thing and it just happens irregardless. Also, it partially has to do with the fact that the Dalai Llama is himself a philosophic metaphysician. Only Catholics have as much invested in philosophic logic and rationality. I dig that.

 

However, even that's always under construction in my mind. If there is a God and God made my body, my mind, etc., then nothing I can do with it goes against God's nature. Therefore, us having this argument, my criticism of Christians, your criticism of me, IS ALL GOOD. I could go into more detail but this thread is already WAAAAY off topic.

It's not knowing Christ that saves you, Jesus said, it's accepting that he is the way. It goes hand in hand.

 

Could you clarify that or explain it further?

 

 

 

 

Sure. Bear with me because I will break out some Scripture. :o

 

First of all, a lot of negativity on this thread about Christians who deal out judgment (ex. hey, you're going to hell if you don't accept Christ). Not only do these Christians have no idea how little they know, the Bible says that judgment isn't theirs to begin with. Check this out:

 

"He raised himself up and said the them, "He who is without sin, among you, let him throw a stone at her (an adulteress) first."

Jesus in John 8:7

 

Not only does this verse tell me that we have no real right to perform capital punishment (tough to swallow for many!), it's that the reason we have no right is because judgment is God's - not because He is God, but because He is without sin.

 

Check this out.

 

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."

John 12:47

 

Does that give people who don't get the opportunity to hear the Gospel a break? Yeah I think so.

Also, this verse signifies to me that Jesus doesn't even want to judge humanity - rather, he wants humanity to accept his grace so he won't have to... it's so easy!

 

 

 

Basically F_M what I'm trying to tell you is don't let these overzealous Christians misinterpret and thus spread false words of God. What I believe is that God only wants you to know that He is the way to salvation, and to Him it's just incomprehensible that so many of us refuse to accept his gracious love which doesn't cost us anything.

 

 

 

 

Sorry if I'm just not making sense but I hope I helped.

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."

John 12:47

 

Does that give people who don't get the opportunity to hear the Gospel a break? Yeah I think so.

Also, this verse signifies to me that Jesus doesn't even want to judge humanity - rather, he wants humanity to accept his grace so he won't have to... it's so easy!

 

 

See, this is why I buy you as a Christian. You're not going to judge. You're not going to say, "Well you're this and you're going here and tough luck for you." You and I, I'm sure have had our problems in the past, but I could never hate the man who believes the words above, Dodge.

 

I HIGHLY question most organized religion because my rationality order me to do so. And I think good people don't deserve to be punished because they DON'T follow Jesus (or Mohammed, etc.). Although, I still hold a big grudge against a lot of organized religions, maybe some of their followers, I don't have a problem with religion itself at all. I still have to question it, but if it's a deeply profound and expressive/personal thing, as it is for you, then how can I question that?

 

I dig personal religion and belief. But, I hate the fakes.

Buckeye, just to clarify, I am Jewish. And the Jewish god is rather different from the Christian god. :thumbup

 

And there is evil because God created the tree of knowledge and Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree if you want a literal bible meaning.

Buckeye, just to clarify, I am Jewish. And the Jewish god is rather different from the Christian god. :thumbup

 

And there is evil because God created the tree of knowledge and Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree if you want a literal bible meaning.

 

 

See, you say 'literal,' and yet, I don't buy it. Because that "literally" couldn't have happened. I could get into the Rational Empiricist part that plays into me not buying the biting into an apply releasing evil upon the world, or the problem of Eden, but let me put it this way:

 

I don't believe that ever happened.

 

If you do, cool. I question how you could, but it's all good.

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."

John 12:47

 

Does that give people who don't get the opportunity to hear the Gospel a break? Yeah I think so.

Also, this verse signifies to me that Jesus doesn't even want to judge humanity - rather, he wants humanity to accept his grace so he won't have to... it's so easy!

 

 

See, this is why I buy you as a Christian. You're not going to judge. You're not going to say, "Well you're this and you're going here and tough luck for you." You and I, I'm sure have had our problems in the past, but I could never hate the man who believes the words above, Dodge.

 

I HIGHLY question most organized religion because my rationality order me to do so. And I think good people don't deserve to be punished because they DON'T follow Jesus (or Mohammed, etc.). Although, I still hold a big grudge against a lot of organized religions, maybe some of their followers, I don't have a problem with religion itself at all. I still have to question it, but if it's a deeply profound and expressive/personal thing, as it is for you, then how can I question that?

 

I dig personal religion and belief. But, I hate the fakes.

 

 

Big words! Thanks, I really appreciate it.

 

I have found myself many times with a very sour taste in my mouth from organized religion on a smaller level - different churches and groups and whatnot.

 

I went through a period in high school where I rejected Christ because I was bitter about my Dad and his wife being very overbearing in the name of Jesus. I later realized it's not fair to Jesus, whether He is legitimate or not, to let humans, who are by their nature wrong and hypocritical, get in the way of my relationship with God. My relationship with God has no middle man, and never again will I let a self-absorbed, judgmental "follower" of Christ get in the way of that.

 

 

 

I know the reason a lot of people have an aversion to God is because God's "followers" are guilty of hindering the spread of the GOOD NEWS by warping it to fit their own over-conservative and hateful political and personal views. Anyone who perverts God into bad news and not good news has got it all wrong, man.

 

 

Anyway, I only ask that you don't let these folks avert whatever feelings you have about not just Jesus, but any religion. When you formulate your views on the subject, no one else here in the temporal should influence them.

Isnt basic law based on fear?

 

Most people dont commit crimes because they are fearful of the punishmnet they will recieve.

 

If we see religion that way, then isnt God no different than a tyrant? If I ask God why I should follow him why I cant sleep with multiple women, and he threatens me with pain, then how is he different from Saddam? God only becomes as right and wise as his threats and power.

The difference is...God isnt supposed to be fearful, I dont fear God. My God is a loving God. I fear what God could do, but he isnt here to be feared. Thats the difference.

 

You are thinking of the God from the Old Testament. The New Testament God, which Jesus revealed is one that forgives your sins and turns away no one from his love and eternal life.

Isnt basic law based on fear?

 

Most people dont commit crimes because they are fearful of the punishmnet they will recieve.

 

 

Wait, so do you refrain from stealing and arson and violence because you're afraid of going to jail?

 

Or because you think it's wrong and you wouldn't like to be treated that way by others?

 

One could argue that there's a certain aspect of punishment as a deterrence, but I have to hope that for the majority of people out there, the threat of jail is not what's holding them back from a life of crime. (more social contract theory...)

HC, it varies for lots of people.

 

 

One guy who won't kill somebody won't do it because he feels it wrong, yet the same guy doesn't cheat on his wife for fear he'll get caught.

 

 

 

[/captain obvious]

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."

John 12:47

 

Does that give people who don't get the opportunity to hear the Gospel a break? Yeah I think so.

Also, this verse signifies to me that Jesus doesn't even want to judge humanity - rather, he wants humanity to accept his grace so he won't have to... it's so easy!

 

 

See, this is why I buy you as a Christian. You're not going to judge. You're not going to say, "Well you're this and you're going here and tough luck for you." You and I, I'm sure have had our problems in the past, but I could never hate the man who believes the words above, Dodge.

That's why we all love Dodge. :thumbup

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world."

John 12:47

 

Does that give people who don't get the opportunity to hear the Gospel a break? Yeah I think so.

Also, this verse signifies to me that Jesus doesn't even want to judge humanity - rather, he wants humanity to accept his grace so he won't have to... it's so easy!

 

 

See, this is why I buy you as a Christian. You're not going to judge. You're not going to say, "Well you're this and you're going here and tough luck for you." You and I, I'm sure have had our problems in the past, but I could never hate the man who believes the words above, Dodge.

 

I HIGHLY question most organized religion because my rationality order me to do so. And I think good people don't deserve to be punished because they DON'T follow Jesus (or Mohammed, etc.). Although, I still hold a big grudge against a lot of organized religions, maybe some of their followers, I don't have a problem with religion itself at all. I still have to question it, but if it's a deeply profound and expressive/personal thing, as it is for you, then how can I question that?

 

I dig personal religion and belief. But, I hate the fakes.

 

 

Big words! Thanks, I really appreciate it.

 

I have found myself many times with a very sour taste in my mouth from organized religion on a smaller level - different churches and groups and whatnot.

 

I went through a period in high school where I rejected Christ because I was bitter about my Dad and his wife being very overbearing in the name of Jesus. I later realized it's not fair to Jesus, whether He is legitimate or not, to let humans, who are by their nature wrong and hypocritical, get in the way of my relationship with God. My relationship with God has no middle man, and never again will I let a self-absorbed, judgmental "follower" of Christ get in the way of that.

 

 

 

I know the reason a lot of people have an aversion to God is because God's "followers" are guilty of hindering the spread of the GOOD NEWS by warping it to fit their own over-conservative and hateful political and personal views. Anyone who perverts God into bad news and not good news has got it all wrong, man.

 

 

Anyway, I only ask that you don't let these folks avert whatever feelings you have about not just Jesus, but any religion. When you formulate your views on the subject, no one else here in the temporal should influence them.

I generally agree with this stuff and I think that quote by Jesus is the best aspect of Christ. I take it further in that I think his goal is to make men moral beings and those men who refuse him but are moral are wonderful to him.