Maybe Soriano doesn't think the move will help the team. Maybe he thinks he's a better player than Vidro. Maybe he doesn't care to play for an a**hole(s).

 

 

Funny you should mention that. Jeff Brantley was just talking about what a bad second baseman Soriano is. By making Vidro move would be hurting the team. Apparently, Soriano is such a bad second baseman that the Yankees and Rangers have both asked him to move at one point, and he refused each time. This time Bowden isn't giving him the option, which I love...

 

And again dude. how would it look if you went into work and your boss asked you to do something different and you said no...

Maybe Soriano doesn't think the move will help the team. Maybe he thinks he's a better player than Vidro. Maybe he doesn't care to play for an a**hole(s).

 

 

Funny you should mention that. Jeff Brantley was just talking about what a bad second baseman Soriano is. By making Vidro move would be hurting the team. Apparently, Soriano is such a bad second baseman that the Yankees and Rangers have both asked him to move at one point, and he refused each time. This time Bowden isn't giving him the option, which I love...

 

And again dude. how would it look if you went into work and your boss asked you to do something different and you said no...

Thing is, he never asked or wanted to play for that boss.

Thing is, he never asked or wanted to play for that boss.

 

 

Doesn't matter.. I've had new bosses come and go, and I didn't get to choose them. I don't get why so many people are defending him. Why do baseball fans not have a problem with a player who is only looking out for himself? Even if they somehow sort this out, I would imagine that his teammates would have some ill feelings toward him.

Maybe Soriano doesn't think the move will help the team. Maybe he thinks he's a better player than Vidro. Maybe he doesn't care to play for an a**hole(s).

 

 

Funny you should mention that. Jeff Brantley was just talking about what a bad second baseman Soriano is. By making Vidro move would be hurting the team. Apparently, Soriano is such a bad second baseman that the Yankees and Rangers have both asked him to move at one point, and he refused each time. This time Bowden isn't giving him the option, which I love...

 

And again dude. how would it look if you went into work and your boss asked you to do something different and you said no...

Thing is, he never asked or wanted to play for that boss.

 

And then there's that whole thing about Hall of Fame type production from a second baseman with good enough defense. Something tells me that's a little harder to replace than any middleman who has to answer to a boss.

Soriano's defense isn't that good though. I never thought it was good to begin with. Then hearing it from an ex-player says something else.... He plays professional baseball for his bat. The position he plays wil have no bearing on anything else. If anything, moving will help him.

Soriano's defense isn't that good though. I never thought it was good to begin with. Then hearing it from an ex-player says something else.... He plays professional baseball for his bat. The position he plays wil have no bearing on anything else. If anything, moving will help him.

 

 

Jeff Brantley's opinion doesn't count, lol.

 

Soriano's got a career .970 fielding percentage, not great, certainly lower than Vidro's career .983 fielding percentage...but wait, there's the whole range factor thing. Soriano has a career 4.63 range factor compared to Vidro's career 4.24 range factor.

 

So, since fielding percentage is flawed anyway, Soriano's range factor sure suggests that he's a better second baseman than he gets credit for, and he certainly gets to more balls (thus the chance for more errors) than the incumbent in Washington.

 

And changing positions certainly hurts him. He's giving elite offensive production from second base, easily putting his annual salary into 8 figures, as an outfielder, his offensive production is no better than average.

Maybe Soriano doesn't think the move will help the team. Maybe he thinks he's a better player than Vidro. Maybe he doesn't care to play for an a**hole(s).

 

 

Funny you should mention that. Jeff Brantley was just talking about what a bad second baseman Soriano is. By making Vidro move would be hurting the team. Apparently, Soriano is such a bad second baseman that the Yankees and Rangers have both asked him to move at one point, and he refused each time. This time Bowden isn't giving him the option, which I love...

 

And again dude. how would it look if you went into work and your boss asked you to do something different and you said no...

Thing is, he never asked or wanted to play for that boss.

 

And then there's that whole thing about Hall of Fame type production from a second baseman with good enough defense. Something tells me that's a little harder to replace than any middleman who has to answer to a boss.

No disrespect intended, but from what you are saying, I can't help but state the obvious here. This seems to be a class issue now. Those of you that are defending Soriano, or No-Show as I am refering to him from now on, I get the feeling that you are the ones that hold these players on such high pedestals. I totally agree with Marlins Giants analogy here. A boss is a boss whether you work as an athlete, systems analyst, or whopper flopper. We are all asked to do stuff that is unexpected, unwarranted, and unappreciated. This is just an instance where the roles are brought back to where they should be. The boss taking control of his workers instead the workers controlling the boss. We have to remember that these guys are no different than any of us. They just have talent in areas where we lack. If you still feel that these guys are better than anyone else, I implore you to read Jorg's Journal. There isnt a more down to earth guy on this site.

Thanks for the psycho-analysis.

 

Check guys coming out of college, most can't be made into potential hall of fame second baseman, but I'm sure you could teach a few of them how to be a programmer. Therefore, which one is more replaceable? And thus, the more replaceable one has less say over what he will/won't do.

The Indians had a deal in place for Soriano a month before Washington traded for him. They negotiated the deal, then asked Soriano if he would play LF. He said no. They didn't make the deal.

 

What a concept.

The Indians had a deal in place for Soriano a month before Washington traded for him. They negotiated the deal, then asked Soriano if he would play LF. He said no. They didn't make the deal.

 

What a concept.

 

 

But that's another thing... This guy has now said no to 4 different teams. They've all asked him to change positions for a reason. They obviously are not that impressed with his defense at 2b.

 

There isn't anything else anyone can say here. You guys think it's warranted because if he stays at 2b, he can cash out when the season is over. It's all about the player for you guys, whereas I see a team trying to win and trying to do what's best for 25 guys, not one.

 

No-Show (love the nickname, knglover), is a tool and I have no respect for him. I'll bet a lot of MLB players around the league are losing respect for him as well.

Its really starting to pi$$ me off that the Marlins are on ESPN and the Scroll across the screen has the No-Show story on every 10 freakin seconds. re-irritates me everytime I see it!

Maybe Soriano doesn't think the move will help the team. Maybe he thinks he's a better player than Vidro. Maybe he doesn't care to play for an a**hole(s).

 

 

Funny you should mention that. Jeff Brantley was just talking about what a bad second baseman Soriano is. By making Vidro move would be hurting the team. Apparently, Soriano is such a bad second baseman that the Yankees and Rangers have both asked him to move at one point, and he refused each time. This time Bowden isn't giving him the option, which I love...

That last line is very telling of what you think of ballplayers in general. But I'll get to that in a minute.

 

Vidro's no better. He ranks on par (or barely better) with Soriano in range factor and the more advanced defensive stats. We ain't talking about Andruw Jones and Preston Wilson here. We're talking Juan Pierre and Preston Wilson.

 

Why do baseball fans not have a problem with a player who is only looking out for himself?

 

Because some of us came to age when ballplayers were granted the right to earn beyond what their original team wanted to pay them, when they had the right to market themselves, when they are no longer simply pieces of muscles and bones sent out there by rich men for fans to pay tickets to see. When, through the MLBPA, CBA and contract negotiations, they have a say in where they want to play and for how much. While it hasn't stretched to what position they want to play, I'm not quite sure you realize that their want for those rights and their activation of those rights are not a sign of selfishness, but of what they have earned and are entitled to. MLB's worth, the price you pay for tickets and merchandise, is not tied to the name on the front of the jersey. The name on the front of the jersey has absolutly no credibility in the eye of anyone without it being filled by players of the best talented players a league can compile.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe Soriano doesn't think the move will help the team. Maybe he thinks he's a better player than Vidro. Maybe he doesn't care to play for an a**hole(s).

 

 

Funny you should mention that. Jeff Brantley was just talking about what a bad second baseman Soriano is. By making Vidro move would be hurting the team. Apparently, Soriano is such a bad second baseman that the Yankees and Rangers have both asked him to move at one point, and he refused each time. This time Bowden isn't giving him the option, which I love...

 

And again dude. how would it look if you went into work and your boss asked you to do something different and you said no...

Thing is, he never asked or wanted to play for that boss.

 

And then there's that whole thing about Hall of Fame type production from a second baseman with good enough defense. Something tells me that's a little harder to replace than any middleman who has to answer to a boss.

No disrespect intended, but from what you are saying, I can't help but state the obvious here. This seems to be a class issue now. Those of you that are defending Soriano, or No-Show as I am refering to him from now on, I get the feeling that you are the ones that hold these players on such high pedestals. I totally agree with Marlins Giants analogy here. A boss is a boss whether you work as an athlete, systems analyst, or whopper flopper. We are all asked to do stuff that is unexpected, unwarranted, and unappreciated. This is just an instance where the roles are brought back to where they should be. The boss taking control of his workers instead the workers controlling the boss. We have to remember that these guys are no different than any of us. They just have talent in areas where we lack. If you still feel that these guys are better than anyone else, I implore you to read Jorg's Journal. There isnt a more down to earth guy on this site.

See my post earlier. I don't worship ballplayers simply because they play baseball. Yet I still can see Soriano's side. Not sure if I agree with him. All I know is that I can't treat a person, whether it be a friend or employee or a stranger, like Bowden, Boone and Robinson have and expect him to respect me or the decisions I make for him.

 

 

The Indians had a deal in place for Soriano a month before Washington traded for him. They negotiated the deal, then asked Soriano if he would play LF. He said no. They didn't make the deal.

 

What a concept.

 

 

But that's another thing... This guy has now said no to 4 different teams. They've all asked him to change positions for a reason. They obviously are not that impressed with his defense at 2b.

Read the Washington Post article yesterday by Sheinin and others. The reason why Soriano was tried out in LF was because Jeter was at SS, Knoblauch at 2B and Bernie in CF. And Soriano was a rookie anxious to do anything to break into a Championship lineup. At no point to my memory did the Yankees want to move him from 2B.

Damn dude.. I think you're overanalyzing a bit here.... Players are no longer simply pieces of muscles and bones sent out there by rich men for fans to pay tickets to see??? I think you've been watching Gladiator a bit too much. You make the players sound like they don't want to be there.... If you think the players have thought of themselves that way, you're highly mistaken.

 

This is not that difficult. The team needs a player to move to LF. The player does not want to do it. That's it....Don't make it more than it is...

 

Read the Washington Post article yesterday by Sheinin and others. The reason why Soriano was tried out in LF was because Jeter was at SS, Knoblauch at 2B and Bernie in CF. And Soriano was a rookie anxious to do anything to break into a Championship lineup. At no point to my memory did the Yankees want to move him from 2B.

 

 

Great.. what about the Rangers asking him to move.. and this proposed trade to the Indians.. and now the Nats.. Point is, he wants to play 2b and he doesn't give a sh** about anything else..

 

I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over.. I'll agree to disagree. I'm just curious to see how this ends up at this point.

a little something I found from a Nats fan:

I'm loath to do this, because i really can't stand what the miserable SOB is doing, but I can also sort of see where he's coming from -- even if I don't completely agree with it.

 

Soriano is being asked to move to an unfamiliar position in an unfamiliar league on an unfamiliar team. And he's balking at it. While his refusal is certainly precedent setting, is it completely unrealistic?

 

If the Nationals had moved Brad Wilkerson to second base, he likely would have complained, and we would have sided with Wilkerson, most likely. If the Nationals wanted Soriano to catch or to pitch, we'd likely agree with him, too. Is asking him to move from second to left materially different? While left field is an easier position than second, it's still a completely different position -- one he doesn't know, and one he doesn't have much of a desire to play. Where's the line between asking him to move to left and catcher? Is it because of the difficulty of the new position? Would it change if Soriano were a Gold Glover?

 

I have answers to most of those questions, but I'm not confident that they'd be right -- especially from a legal/arbitration sense.

 

While it's easy to say he should just move, and to compare the situation to you being transferred to another position at work, it doesn't really work that way. Because of the CBA and his lack of service time, Soriano has very little control over his work environment. Soriano last had input into his career in 1998. He can't just up and quit if he didn't like the department he was transferred to like you or I could. Bowden even said the uncomfortable truth: "He would still be our property." Needless to say, the connotation of that last word isn't helping anything.

 

And that's Soriano's problem. That's the same problem he had when he was in Japan. When he signed a contract with the Carp as a teenager, he went to their training academy. When he blossomed and showed promise he had a chance to play in Japan, but was miserable. He also saw dollar signs, and the restrictive Japanese system gives players even less control over their contracts than MLB's does. As a result, he found a loophole. He simply retired from Japanese baseball. In doing so, he sat out an entire season, and was officially free from the Japanese League's reserve clause. He then declared himself a free agent, and set sail for America, where the Yankees swooped in and made him a millionaire.

 

Seeing any parallels?

 

And, if I had to bet, I think that that same sort of scenario is going to play out here. Even if Soriano sits on the DQ list and doesn't accrue service time this year, are the Nats really going to go to salary arbitration with him next year? It's likely that they'd non-tender him, making him a free agent one way or another. You're not going to tender a $10 million contract out of spite! Soriano's showed a willigness to sit out a year. Why would this season be any different, especially with as little respect that Jim Bowden has shown him (not saying that he deserves respect, but I suspect we'd feel differently if we were Alf!)

 

There has to be a middle ground in there somewhere, but with the stunts that have been played so far, I think the bridges may have been napalmed back into the stoneage.

 

Admit it though.... there's a part of you that hopes he's still around just so that you can boo, right?

Damn dude.. I think you're overanalyzing a bit here.... Players are no longer simply pieces of muscles and bones sent out there by rich men for fans to pay tickets to see??? I think you've been watching Gladiator a bit too much. You make the players sound like they don't want to be there.... If you think the players have thought of themselves that way, you're highly mistaken.

 

This is not that difficult. The team needs a player to move to LF. The player does not want to do it. That's it....Don't make it more than it is...

Because it is much more than that. Like a batted ball has a lot more to do than a bat hitting a ball. It has to do with everything that went to put the ball and bat into action. Stop thinking as a fan and start thinking about the personalities that are actually involved in the situation. They are real people just like you and I. Not some names on baseball cards and media guides.

Because it is much more than that. Like a batted ball has a lot more to do than a bat hitting a ball. It has to do with everything that went to put the ball and bat into action. Stop thinking as a fan and start thinking about the personalities that are actually involved in the situation. They are real people just like you and I. Not some names on baseball cards and media guides.

 

 

I already tried going that route, but apparently comparisons from baseball players to you and I have limitations. I can't compare my job to a baseball player, because they're harder to find.

Obviously not all situations are the same, but it's not a stretch to say the involved parties are not thoughtless emotionless dummies.

Wow!!!! I had no idea that this issue would be such a powder keg. I see where those that disagree with me are coming from and they have some good points. I have one question that may settle this dispute once and for all. This seems like this will go to some sort of arbitration and I will bet my bottom dollar that this question will be asked in that process, so here goes.............................

 

 

Are there any provisions or stipulations in Alphonso soriano's contract that says he has the right to refuse to play if he is not playing second base?

 

The answer is NO..........I would bet every cent I have to this!!!!!

 

No-Show, get your ass in left and play some ball!!!!!

is there anything that says that he doesnt?

 

and Soriano moving to LF significantly lowers his value as he is an upcoming free agent

Might lower his upcoming value a little, but I doubt it does that much. Afterall, he would just sign with a team that will place him back at 2b, and as for the money a prime offensive 2b would get.

There is not. However in the CBA, it is suggested that the role a player has should be discussed in negotiations. Of course Soriano and the Nats never had any type of negotiation of acquiring him. And their rules whether he can be suspended indefinetly without eventually becoming a free agent are vague and unclear, from what I've read.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming Soriano has any choice besides to play or not.

per ESPN

 

VIERA, Fla. -- Alfonso Soriano and the Washington Nationals were stuck in a holding pattern Tuesday. The team had a day off, and no one seems to know whether he will agree to move from second base to left field.

 

It's not the first time Soriano's career has been affected by a proposed position change.

 

He was a shortstop in the minors, then moved to second base late in spring training before his rookie season with the New York Yankees in 2001, when Chuck Knoblauch accepted a shift from second to left field.

 

Soriano wound up becoming an All-Star at second for New York. Then, in 2004, he was shipped to Texas in the deal that sent Alex Rodriguez to the Yankees (where Rodriguez moved from shortstop to third base).

 

There was talk that spring of moving Soriano to the outfield, because the Rangers already had a second baseman in Michael Young. But the day before the first full-squad spring workout, Young offered to move over to Rodriguez's old spot at shortstop.

 

"That's the difference to me: Michael Young is the type who stepped up before we had to make a decision, when Soriano said he wanted to play second base," Rangers general manager Jon Daniels said Tuesday in Surprise, Ariz. "That's why Michael is such a leader on this team."

 

Texas traded Soriano to Washington this offseason, and he was to make his first appearance in a Nationals uniform Monday night in an exhibition game against the Dodgers. He was listed on a lineup sheet in left field -- the spot Washington wants him to play -- but he refused to go into the game.

 

Another big moment comes Wednesday, when the Nationals travel to Jupiter for an exhibition game against the St. Louis Cardinals. Soriano is expected to be penciled into the lineup in left field again.

 

"The next step is to write his name in the lineup for Wednesday's game and see if he will show up in Jupiter and go out and play the outfield," Nationals manager Frank Robinson said after Monday's 11-5 loss to Los Angeles.

 

Soriano's refusal to play in the game prompted Nationals general manager Jim Bowden to threaten putting Soriano on the disqualified list, which would prevent him from playing, accruing service time and receiving his $10 million salary.

 

Fantasy Take

[Alfonso] Soriano's not going to retire, but his refusal to move to left field from his normal second base could get him a permanent spot on the bench. As a result, if you're drafting a team today, you must factor that in, meaning Soriano is likely to slip a bit.

 

"It is a distraction. Absolutely," Robinson said Monday. He wasn't at Space Coast Stadium on Tuesday -- Robinson said he'd be playing golf -- nor were many people associated with the team.

 

If Soriano is disciplined, the players' association could file a grievance.

 

"We've been in touch with Soriano and his representatives and we're gathering the facts," said Michael Weiner, the union's general counsel.

 

Bowden didn't immediately return a phone message, nor did team president Tony Tavares. Alfonso's agent, Diego Bentz, didn't respond to an e-mail.

 

"We have compassion for his position on where he's coming from, but we have a job to try to win baseball games with the team we have," Bowden said Monday. "We're not going to give the player away."

and Soriano moving to LF significantly lowers his value as he is an upcoming free agent

 

 

I'm so tired of hearing this... This is the exact reason everyone is saying he's selfish.. It's all about him and how this would affect the contract he may get at the end of the season. Last time I checked, it took 25 men to fill out a Major League roster. But all No-Show is worried about is his wallet.

 

I finally saw the statistics on his defense last night. Soriano has made 105 errors since 2001... 60 more than Jose Vidro. I think Jeff Kent was second on the list, but he still had around 30 less errors. If anything, all Soriano has done with this little charade is bring to light the fact that he sucks as a second baseman.

Also, just saw on ESPN where they say No-Show had like 105 E's since 2001. That's the most in the Majors for 2nd basemen Ladies and Gentlemen. They showed Vidro's E total but I didn't see what it was, but I do know that it was only like 30 since 2001. Yeah I realize that he missed alot of time last year but still, 70 less. Ok, so the grounds of the arguments of those that say Vidro is just as bad a fielder Soriano just got a little less sturdy.

Some Marlins weighed in on the sitatuion.

 

 

Lenny Harris:"A guy makes $10 million a year, that guy's got to play," Harris said. "You go out there and have fun. That's why I play the game. I come back for $25,000 a year raises. For that money, I'll play anything."

 

Soriano believes his value as a hitter will drop if he's perceived as an outfielder opposed to a second baseman. He needs fewer than 100 service days to become a free agent following this season.

 

"If he feels that way and wants to put himself on the market, what if nobody wants him," Harris said. (The Nationals) got to do what's best for the team."

 

Joe Girardi:"It's a situation you hope gets worked out because it's best for both sides . . . and it's best for baseball," Girardi said.

 

Tony Perez:Marlins official Tony Perez knows a similar incident never would have occurred during his playing days. Perez, a Hall of Fame first baseman, was asked to move to third base early in his career with the Reds to make room for Lee May.

 

"I said fine," Perez said. "It didn't matter to me because I just wanted my four ABs. I wanted to be in the lineup."

 

Full story here: http://www.journal-news.com/sports/content...T_0322_COX.html