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do we need a true leadoff hitter this year when we have no chance to compete in '06: no

do we need a true CF this year when we have no chance to compete in '06: no

can you ever have too much pitching: no

 

is joey gathright overrated: yes

 

 

 

so the thought of improving the team in a very weak area is something that is irrelevant because we are not penciled in to compete this year? ... its not like we are talking about a superstar thats gonna pull off a miracle here. We are only talking about a cheap, young, talented player for an area of need

 

 

and while we are at it:

 

that hole in left field? ... who cares about it. its not like we are gonna compete this year

 

second base ... eh, we'll worry about it in a couple of years once we are contending

 

 

:rolleyes:

nolasco is too good to be traded for gathright. his stuff is electric and he has impeccable control. he posted the best numbers out of all our pitching prospects last year (except for petit).

 

 

But Nolasco had to repeat a level, did he not?

 

Numbers be damned (at least partially) Nolasco is behind Willis, Olsen, Petit, Sanchez, Volstad and even with Johnson and Vargas for that all important projectable future in the 2008 rotation.

 

Just saying that dealing a good player from a position of strength for a player needed to fill a weakness is a good idea.

 

It's better than dealing Olsen, Petit or Sanchez.

I'm against the idea of ever trading a top tier pitcher. Hearing Andino and Uggla's comments in the paper a few weeks back about how they thought Nolasco was the nastiest pitcher they'd faced, I'm against trading anyone like that... True they have depth at pitcher, but I don't want to trade someone like that, or the guys you listed above, to be honest.

 

I say you start the season with the team in tact- Aguila and Abercrombie. If a month goes by and you need more offense, you consider trading one of these players for an outfielder.

 

Ignoring the fact that you're taking advice from Dan Uggla and Robert Andino (of all people) here's the thing.

 

The Marlins, as much as everyone likes the concept of 'depth' at a position have used their last 7 first round picks on pitchers (last year's fab-5, Tankersly and Jeff Allison) to go with a nucleus that features several non-first round steals like Willis, Vargas, Olsen and Johnson. Couple that with the fact that most middle-tier pitchers can turn in a 14 win season in Pro Player with a good defense and good enough offense behind them and you see that stock piling young pitching to the degree the Marlins are is foolish.

 

The Marlins have 4 glaring holes on this team (and going forward as well).

 

1) The lack of a "burner.'

2) The lack of an above average second-baseman (love Uggla to death, but it's the truth).

3) The lack of a leadoff capable player to allow Hanley Ramirez and Hermida to slot down to 2-3 where they will be much more valuable to the team.

4) The lack of a capable everyday leftfielder (assuming that Abercrombie's spring isn't a total mirage and that Willingham becomes the everyday catcher).

 

By trading for Gathright (who is by no means perfect) the Marlins can scratch 1 3 and 4 off the list (Abercrombie moves to left). Is Nolasco an above average pitching prospect? Absolutely. Do I think he has as high a ceiling as Petit, Sanchez, Olsen, Volstad or Willis? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean we're giving him away. In most respects, this is getting equal value in return, and in a way it's downright ripping the Devil Rays off. Afterall, we did set the market for a speedy centerfielder with little OBP skills and no defense to write home about aside from speed.

 

Think about it this way: in trading Pierre we said that a one dimensional player entering the downside of a speedster's years is worth 3 young pitchers. In trading Nolasco for Gathright, we'd be doing a three for one for Pierre: Gathright, Pinto and Mitre, or in essence saying that a speedster entering the prime of his career is only worth one young pitcher. That's not terrible at all, in fact, it almost sounds like robbery.

It's not that we don't see that we need to fill these holes, but the asking price is just absurd. We feel that if we deal one of our arms for Gathright we are losing in the deal. Olsen and Nolasco can nail us a much better deal elsewhere when we are ready to compete, but by then they'll be our top starters, no need to mess with our farm hands, like I said before you can't ever carry too much pitching. Pitching wins games (BRAVES).

Hearing Andino and Uggla's comments in the paper a few weeks back about how they thought Nolasco was the nastiest pitcher they'd faced, I'm against trading anyone like that

 

 

wait till they face Pedro, Hudson, Mulder, Peavy and plenty others around the league

SIDE NOTE: That's fine that we have wasted our draft picks on pitchers, that's cause pitching is the hardest talent to find, hitting is always second (please see Texas).

It's not that we don't see that we need to fill these holes, but the asking price is just absurd. We feel that if we deal one of our arms for Gathright we are losing in the deal. Olsen and Nolasco can nail us a much better deal elsewhere when we are ready to compete, but by then they'll be our top starters, no need to mess with our farm hands, like I said before you can't ever carry too much pitching. Pitching wins games (BRAVES).

 

 

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

 

Pitching wins games, pitching depth is important, but the Marlins already have about 7 guys who profile as no worse than a #3 on a good team (Willis, Olsen, Johnson, Petit, Sanchez, Vargas, Volstad). That's not even including the four other first round picks from this past draft (West, Marceaux, Thompson, Tucker), or the plethora of second-tier prospects in the organization. Just so you know, a team usually carries 11 pitchers at a time, rarely more than 12, and in the course of a year where injuries aren't excessive, rarely does a team exceed 20-24 pitchers used (including journeymen like Frank Castillo).

 

You can have too much of anything, and when you're afraid to pull the trigger on a fair deal, you're never going to get better.

 

SIDE NOTE: That's fine that we have wasted our draft picks on pitchers, that's cause pitching is the hardest talent to find, hitting is always second (please see Texas).

 

 

So if it's a good thing, why do you say we "wasted" the picks. :rolleyes:

Hearing Andino and Uggla's comments in the paper a few weeks back about how they thought Nolasco was the nastiest pitcher they'd faced, I'm against trading anyone like that

 

 

wait till they face Pedro, Hudson, Mulder, Peavy and plenty others around the league

I say NO DEAL.

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And that quote from Uggla had me smiling. Where in talking about Nolasco's pitching keeping a batter off balance he said something to the affect of, "NOBODY does that to me". I was thinking the same thing. Who has he faced. Wait till he sees just about every major league teams #1 and 2 pitchers.

Gathright is by all accounts a below average CF, with an arm on par with Pierres. And for all his speed, he is still a signles hitter.

 

And when you compare the springs both have had, Gathright is nowhere near worth Nolasco.

 

14 times has a starting pitcher had 14 or more wins in this organization in 13 seasons, and that is amongst 11 different pitchers. So I dont think it's all that common.

Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis(twice-03, 05), Ryand Demptster(twice-00, 01), Carl Pavano(04), Brad Penny(03), Mark Redman(03), Kevin Brown(96, 97), Al Leiter(96), Alex Fernandez(97), John Burkett(95), and Pat Rapp(95)

 

Granted there were some horrible teams in there, but not just any "middle tier" pitcher can come into DS and win 14 games.

When you waste (it's using your draft pick), same thing. Sometimes pitchers won't pan out, and niether do hitters, but most of the time it's pitchers. Now how do we know all these pitchers will develope, and if all those pitchers you have named are so good why were they not being mentioned in these trades? Why can't we deal one of them instead? Why is it that we have to trade OUR best for their 4th outfielder? Was I the only one who witnessed Tampa bay play the Mets like chumps for Kazmir? C'on, if you want to over-pay be my guest, but I think that is what is one of the DUMBEST things to do. ;-)

Granted there were some horrible teams in there, but not just any "middle tier" pitcher can come into DS and win 14 games.

 

 

When we fielded decent to very good teams in '96, '97, '02, '03-'05, it happened on 10 occasions. 10 times in 6 years is pretty good in my book.

 

Then factor in that during that stretch another 6 pitchers won double digit games and you have 16 times in 6 years that the Marlins had pitchers with double digit win totals. Or, out of 30 rotation regulars (5 a year for 6 years) more than half produced double digit win totals.

SIDE NOTE: Well said SPIKE!

SIDE NOTE: Well said SPIKE!

 

 

Well, at least I know why you weren't making sense before.

What can I say, I don't express myself on paper as well as some of you guys do.

I was just arguing your claim that any "mid-tier" guy can go out and win 14 games, as I dont really think it's possible. Not that we haven't had good seasons with pitchers producing.

 

That said, Gathright is still not worth trading Nolasco over. As I have said, his value has severely dropped this spring while Nolascos has risen, if the trade was fair before ST began, how can it be fair when both have had such contrasting springs?

When you waste (it's using your draft pick), same thing. Sometimes pitchers won't pan out, and niether do hitters, but most of the time it's pitchers. Now how do we know all these pitchers will develope, and if all those pitchers you have named are so good why were they not being mentioned in these trades? Why can't we deal one of them instead? Why is it that we have to trade OUR best for their 4th outfielder? Was I the only one who witnessed Tampa bay play the Mets like chumps for Kazmir? C'on, if you want to over-pay be my guest, but I think that is what is one of the DUMBEST things to do. ;-)

 

 

:banghead

 

Nolasco is hardly our best, and to compare him to Kazmir is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

 

That said, Gathright is still not worth trading Nolasco over. As I have said, his value has severely dropped this spring while Nolascos has risen, if the trade was fair before ST began, how can it be fair when both have had such contrasting springs?

 

 

Because a good spring means more for a bubble prospect like Nolasco than a bad spring does for a speedster like Gathright.

 

If Gathright were a power hitter who suddenly vanished in the spring, it would be alarming, but as long as both of his legs are still attached to his hips, his value hasn't diminished greatly.

As much as I like Nolasco I dont mind this trade as much as the Olsen trade.

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