If we are going to have Willy catching we better trade for a LFer or CFer that will put up decent numbers. I rather have Willy in left and Olivo catching than Willy catching, Aguila in LF with Abercrombie/Reed in center.

 

 

It would be wise to look toward the future and not just this year. In the long-run it is best for the club to have Willingham's bat coming out of the C position. He needs to get at least a couple of starts a week to continue his progress behind the plate. He had a great spring and he needs to keep getting some reps to build on that momentum. When the club is looking to make a serious run at the playoffs there will be an OF'er available and his bat will probably be a lot better than Aguila's.

 

As far as the pitching stats go, that's a bunch of bull. Even in a rotation where one catcher catches everyone, the pitching stats vary greatly from pitcher to pitcher.

If Willingham has just caught one pitcher, there is not acceptable way to compare his catching ability to O's by looking at strikes, balls, hits, runs, ect..

Now, looking at offensive production when both are in the game going against the same pitchers....

That will tell you something.

Calvin, this isn't about your post specifically but I'll use it if you don't mind as a jumping off post.

 

I thnk people here have to make a decision for themselves about this year's team. Either a guy like Willingham learns to become a catcher by playing the position regardless of the impact on the team offensively or defensively, or not. People can't it have both ways moaning about the team's performance on one hand and then say a guy should get on the job training on the other.

 

Either we look at this season as practice for the rest of the decade and chalk it up to experience, or we play the most capable player(s) (in this case Olivo over Willingham at C and JW in LF) and try to win as frequently as possible.

 

People can't have it both ways.

 

For myself, I take the long view and I'll leave it to Girardi without second-guessing his decision, but it gets frustrating here having a band of naysayers who want a higher level of baseball played and yet want their favorite rookie playing too. The same goes with CF. Either you let an Abercrombie (or Reed) fall on his face for three months as he learns to play at this level and stop complaining or you bring in someone who can play the position and forget about the kids.

 

 

 

Make a choice.

 

 

I agree. I am fine with what Girardi is doing now.

hammer should be in the field in Left field perminantly

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

ya I am all for hammey going to right filed and hermi to left

 

 

 

Doesnt Hermida have a better arm than Willingham?

Treanor needs to be getting more PT.

 

 

That's really all I have to say. Its really difficult to effectively measure how good a catcher is at calling a game other than by just watching the games and seeing how they flow with a certain catcher behind the plate.

 

 

However these stats are interesting, will be intriguing to see how they play out throughout the year.

 

 

Unfortunately I think Treanor is getting the squeeze job. Olivo is Joe's boy, he brought him in and wants him to succeed and will do everything to help him do that, to make his decision to bring him in look good. Willingham is the Golden Boy of the Marlins farm system, he is the catcher of the future.

 

That leaves precious little opportunity for Matt. His only saving grace will be if Olivio keeps stinking it up at the plate, and also becomes a real defensive liability. Joe will give him extra instruction though, because again, he doesn't want to look like he made the wrong decision.

 

Matt seems so far to have a good attitude so far, but maybe he's just biding his time and maybe he can ask for a trade come the July deadline.

I don't see how you came up with that. There's been indication that Girardi holds one in higher regard than the other. I believe the way Girardi has been using the two is dictated by his want to win now. He has come to conlusion that the team is helped now by Olivo catching rather than Aguila in LF. Can't say I agree, but, like Marlins2003, I respect his decision.

I don't see how you came up with that. There's been indication that Girardi holds one in higher regard than the other. I believe the way Girardi has been using the two is dictated by his want to win now. He has come to conlusion that the team is helped now by Olivo catching rather than Aguila in LF. Can't say I agree, but, like Marlins2003, I respect his decision.

 

 

 

rferry do you have some defensive career stats on Matt & Olivo because based on their career bat stats, I think Treanor would grade out a bit better ? I haven't seen the stats but it seems Treanor hit close to .300 last year, while Olivo has a below .270 career average. Does someone have those stats, would be interesting to mull them over.

 

I see Treanor is getting a start today, Joe is on Marlins On Deck and just announced it.

rferry do you have some defensive career stats on Matt & Olivo because based on their career bat stats, I think Treanor would grade out a bit better ? I haven't seen the stats but it seems Treanor hit close to .300 last year, while Olivo has a below .270 career average. Does someone have those stats, would be interesting to mull them over.

 

I see Treanor is getting a start today, Joe is on Marlins On Deck and just announced it.

 

Treanor hit .201 last season.

 

Facts. Try them sometime. :banghead

Olivo is a proven, solid defensive catcher. Not a gold glover or anything. It's also proven that he can't hit for worth a crap.

 

Willingham is struggling so far behind the plate, but is extremely green there...he must possess some sort of potential there in the eyes of management or they wouldn't be wasting their time. The offensive gap between these 2 is ENORMOUS.

 

I don't like this study at all because it considers factors that're way out of either catchers hands.

Over the course of the season, the numbers chosen will indeed have an impact. The only one I believe you can argue is hits, because that is defense efficient to a point. But the pitch selection of a catcher is the catalyst for a hit or a strikeout equally - if he calls a fastball in the wrong count to the wrong hitter, it gets smashed. If he calls a curve at that time, it's a K. It all goes back to the man crouching behind the plate. I'd say SB/CS are quite obvious.

 

It's very easy to look only at stats we've had for tons of years and cast off defense as 'subjective', but that's not what should be done with catchers. Catchers have to be held to a different standard since they control so much of the field.

sigh

 

First of all, many of the pitches being called for by the catchers this season have come directly from the dugout if you've noticed. I just think it's completely ridiculous to attribute so much of a pitcher's success to what the catcher calls or doesn't call when many times hitters are gameplanned for way before the game...including counts, spots, etc.

 

SB/CS includes a ton of factors outside of a catcher's control. Is the game well out of hand? Is the pitcher allowing a big lead at first...or even outright ignoring the baserunner?

 

I don't mind the thread, but I think the argument that I'm sure you're trying to make here is garbage.

rferry do you have some defensive career stats on Matt & Olivo because based on their career bat stats, I think Treanor would grade out a bit better ? I haven't seen the stats but it seems Treanor hit close to .300 last year, while Olivo has a below .270 career average. Does someone have those stats, would be interesting to mull them over.

 

I see Treanor is getting a start today, Joe is on Marlins On Deck and just announced it.

 

Treanor hit .201 last season.

 

Facts. Try them sometime. :banghead

 

Did you see me ASK for the stats ? Reread my post. You are dogging me needlessly and its making you look like a bully and the bad guy.

 

Please, leave my posts alone.

rferry do you have some defensive career stats on Matt & Olivo because based on their career bat stats, I think Treanor would grade out a bit better ? I haven't seen the stats but it seems Treanor hit close to .300 last year, while Olivo has a below .270 career average. Does someone have those stats, would be interesting to mull them over.

 

I see Treanor is getting a start today, Joe is on Marlins On Deck and just announced it.

 

Treanor hit .201 last season.

 

Facts. Try them sometime. :banghead

 

Did you see me ASK for the stats ? Reread my post. You are dogging me needlessly and its making you look like a bully and the bad guy.

 

Please, leave my posts alone.

 

 

I realize you don't know much about the game of baseball but defensive stats refer to how a player performs on the field, while offensive stats, such as the one you stated in your post where you said "Treanor hit close to .300 last year" is an example of an offensive stat, or how they performed while batting.

sigh

 

First of all, many of the pitches being called for by the catchers this season have come directly from the dugout if you've noticed. I just think it's completely ridiculous to attribute so much of a pitcher's success to what the catcher calls or doesn't call when many times hitters are gameplanned for way before the game...including counts, spots, etc.

 

SB/CS includes a ton of factors outside of a catcher's control. Is the game well out of hand? Is the pitcher allowing a big lead at first...or even outright ignoring the baserunner?

 

I don't mind the thread, but I think the argument that I'm sure you're trying to make here is garbage.

First off, the catcher looking into the dugout doesn't mean Girardi is calling pitches. A catcher will always look into the dugout with a runner on base to see if the manager wants a pitch out, and then subsequently choose the pitch if the manager does not. Also the catcher needs to know if an intentional walk is being called for. Don't confuse that with having the manager call the game, because it just is not the case at the Major League level.

 

Secondly, come on now.....every stat has factors outside of the person attributed to them's control. Hitters' stats can be altered by the situation as well, to go along with who hits in front, who hits in back, if anyone is on and who that person is, what inning it is, etc. A pitcher's stats subsequently will also be altered by situation - pitchers pitch different from pitch to pitch. I'd say this is common knowledge.

 

Granted the numbers here aren't perfect, but again if there is a large difference then I'd say it'd be a clear answer one way or another. If the numbers do in fact even out over the course of the season and both (or all three) have similar numbers, then you can honestly say that one's bat is worth more at catcher than another's glove. But if there is a wide gap, even if the stats are not completely dependent (which, as I already pointed out, is the case for 99% of statistics anyways), then it's clearly obvious that one's defense is worth more at the most defensive position on the field than someone's bat.

 

If the stats hold up over the course of the year then my hypothesis of Olivo being light years ahead of Willingham behind the plate will be shown in the numbers after 162 games. If they don't, then it might be a good idea to keep Willingham there long term (or find another great defensive catcher ). But since subjectivity, in my opinion the best way to measure a catcher's effect on the game, is an argument rejected by you in this area...well, we have this. And it's the best we have so far.

rferry do you have some defensive career stats on Matt & Olivo because based on their career bat stats, I think Treanor would grade out a bit better ? I haven't seen the stats but it seems Treanor hit close to .300 last year, while Olivo has a below .270 career average. Does someone have those stats, would be interesting to mull them over.

 

I see Treanor is getting a start today, Joe is on Marlins On Deck and just announced it.

 

Treanor hit .201 last season.

 

Facts. Try them sometime. :banghead

 

Did you see me ASK for the stats ? Reread my post. You are dogging me needlessly and its making you look like a bully and the bad guy.

 

Please, leave my posts alone.

 

 

I realize you don't know much about the game of baseball but defensive stats refer to how a player performs on the field, while offensive stats, such as the one you stated in your post where you said "Treanor hit close to .300 last year" is an example of an offensive stat, or how they performed while batting.

 

Marlins2003 = David Samson, I'm convinced of it. :lol

rferry do you have some defensive career stats on Matt & Olivo because based on their career bat stats, I think Treanor would grade out a bit better ? I haven't seen the stats but it seems Treanor hit close to .300 last year, while Olivo has a below .270 career average. Does someone have those stats, would be interesting to mull them over.

 

I see Treanor is getting a start today, Joe is on Marlins On Deck and just announced it.

 

Treanor hit .201 last season.

 

Facts. Try them sometime. :banghead

 

Did you see me ASK for the stats ? Reread my post. You are dogging me needlessly and its making you look like a bully and the bad guy.

 

Please, leave my posts alone.

 

 

I realize you don't know much about the game of baseball but defensive stats refer to how a player performs on the field, while offensive stats, such as the one you stated in your post where you said "Treanor hit close to .300 last year" is an example of an offensive stat, or how they performed while batting.

 

Marlins2003 = David Samson, I'm convinced of it. :lol

I'm taller.