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The catching platoon so far


Guest Juanky
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Guest Juanky

Now, I'm only going to look at defensive statistics because as you might have found out that's what I believe is most important for a catcher. I'll try to make this as consistent a running series as possible. Without further adieu, here is Week 1:

 

Game 1 (Olivo/Willis starting)

Pitching Line - Olivo

8.0 IP 4 H 1 R (1 ER) 5 BB 8 K

165 pitches, 92 strikes (55.76%)

0 SB, 1 CS

 

Game 2 (Olivo/Mitre starting)

Pitching Line - Olivo

9.0 IP 6 H 2 R (2 ER) 2 BB 8 K

127 pitches, 82 strikes (64.57%)

0 SB, 0 CS

 

Game 3 (Hammer/Moehler starting)

Pitching Line - Hammer

5.0 IP 7 H 6 R (6 ER) 3 BB 2 K

78 pitches, 48 strikes (61.54%)

1 SB, 0 CS

Pitching Line - Olivo

3.0 IP 1 H 0 R (0 ER) 2 BB 3 K

49 pitches, 31 strikes

0 SB, 1 CS

 

Game 4 (Olivo/Vargas starting)

Pitching Line - Olivo

6.0 IP 10 H 7 R (7 ER) 3 BB 4 K

112 pitches, 63 strikes (56.25%)

2 SB, 0 CS

Pitching Line - Treanor

2.0 IP 3 H 2 R (2 ER) 0 BB 1 K

27 pitches, 21 strikes (77.77%)

0 SB, 0 CS

 

Game 5 (Olivo/Willis starting)

Pitching Line - Olivo

8.1 IP 8 H 3 R (3 ER) 1 BB 4 K

123 pitches, 84 strikes (68.29%)

0 SB, 1 CS

 

Running Totals

Olivo- 34.1 IP 29 H 13 BB 27 K

3.41 ERA, 1.22 WHIP

576 pitches, 352 strikes (61.11%)

2 SB, 5 SBA (60% CS)

 

Hammer- 5 IP 7 H 3 BB 2 K

10.80 ERA, 2.00 WHIP

78 pitches, 48 strikes (61.54%)

1 SB, 1 SBA (0% CS)

 

Treanor- 2 IP 3 H 0 BB 1 K

9.00 ERA, 1.50 WHIP

27 pitches, 21 strikes (77.77%)

0 SB, 0 SBA (n/a)

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Guest Juanky

You cant look to much into that because Olivo hasnt caught Moehler and Hammer hasnt caught Willis, Mitre, Vargas

It's early, obviously. But these are the stats so far. And the stats so far show that Olivo has been the more rocksteady backstop. Granted Hammer caught Moehler's destruction last week, but Olivo also caught Vargas' dismantling. We'll see as the season progresses but I'm pretty confident the difference between the two will be large.

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Olivo is a proven, solid defensive catcher. Not a gold glover or anything. It's also proven that he can't hit for worth a crap.

 

Willingham is struggling so far behind the plate, but is extremely green there...he must possess some sort of potential there in the eyes of management or they wouldn't be wasting their time. The offensive gap between these 2 is ENORMOUS.

 

I don't like this study at all because it considers factors that're way out of either catchers hands.

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Guest Juanky

Olivo is a proven, solid defensive catcher. Not a gold glover or anything. It's also proven that he can't hit for worth a crap.

 

Willingham is struggling so far behind the plate, but is extremely green there...he must possess some sort of potential there in the eyes of management or they wouldn't be wasting their time. The offensive gap between these 2 is ENORMOUS.

 

I don't like this study at all because it considers factors that're way out of either catchers hands.

Over the course of the season, the numbers chosen will indeed have an impact. The only one I believe you can argue is hits, because that is defense efficient to a point. But the pitch selection of a catcher is the catalyst for a hit or a strikeout equally - if he calls a fastball in the wrong count to the wrong hitter, it gets smashed. If he calls a curve at that time, it's a K. It all goes back to the man crouching behind the plate. I'd say SB/CS are quite obvious.

 

It's very easy to look only at stats we've had for tons of years and cast off defense as 'subjective', but that's not what should be done with catchers. Catchers have to be held to a different standard since they control so much of the field.

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IMO Treanor is the best of the lot at catching. Olivo has the best arm no question, however, he has somewhat slow feet, he is late going down on his blocks, he turns his mitt sideways when catching as does Hammer thereby missing several strike calls per game. Hammer needs to play somewhere, but not behind the dish, Olivo needs to backup Treanor for a while and let's see what happens, can't be any worse than now.

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Olivo is a proven, solid defensive catcher. Not a gold glover or anything. It's also proven that he can't hit for worth a crap.

 

Willingham is struggling so far behind the plate, but is extremely green there...he must possess some sort of potential there in the eyes of management or they wouldn't be wasting their time. The offensive gap between these 2 is ENORMOUS.

 

I don't like this study at all because it considers factors that're way out of either catchers hands.

Over the course of the season, the numbers chosen will indeed have an impact. The only one I believe you can argue is hits, because that is defense efficient to a point. But the pitch selection of a catcher is the catalyst for a hit or a strikeout equally - if he calls a fastball in the wrong count to the wrong hitter, it gets smashed. If he calls a curve at that time, it's a K. It all goes back to the man crouching behind the plate. I'd say SB/CS are quite obvious.

 

It's very easy to look only at stats we've had for tons of years and cast off defense as 'subjective', but that's not what should be done with catchers. Catchers have to be held to a different standard since they control so much of the field.

It's a nice idea but just too dependent IMO...

 

If we had only 2 pitchers, & Olivo caught Dontrelle all year & Willingham caught Moehler all year, which catcher is going to have better numbers? Of course the answer is Olivo. You could switch the catchers and Willingham would have the better numbers. Dontrelle's numbers will likely be so much better than everyone else that it will schew the study. Not to mention pitchers can shake off a catcher. You could do a caught stealing study but it doesn't take into account which pitchers have better pickoff moves or are quicker to the plate. You could do a passed ball/wild pitch study but it doesn't take into account how wild the pitcher is. You can do a BB/K study but again, doesn't take into account the pitchers. Now MAYBE if they weren't pairing up the catchers with the same pitchers we could see something. Otherwise I think it's just too dependent.

 

We can probably tell more just by watching.

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Guest Festa

If we are going to have Willy catching we better trade for a LFer or CFer that will put up decent numbers. I rather have Willy in left and Olivo catching than Willy catching, Aguila in LF with Abercrombie/Reed in center.

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If we are going to have Willy catching we better trade for a LFer or CFer that will put up decent numbers. I rather have Willy in left and Olivo catching than Willy catching, Aguila in LF with Abercrombie/Reed in center.

 

 

It would be wise to look toward the future and not just this year. In the long-run it is best for the club to have Willingham's bat coming out of the C position. He needs to get at least a couple of starts a week to continue his progress behind the plate. He had a great spring and he needs to keep getting some reps to build on that momentum. When the club is looking to make a serious run at the playoffs there will be an OF'er available and his bat will probably be a lot better than Aguila's.

 

As far as the pitching stats go, that's a bunch of bull. Even in a rotation where one catcher catches everyone, the pitching stats vary greatly from pitcher to pitcher.

If Willingham has just caught one pitcher, there is not acceptable way to compare his catching ability to O's by looking at strikes, balls, hits, runs, ect..

Now, looking at offensive production when both are in the game going against the same pitchers....

That will tell you something.

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Treanor needs to be getting more PT.

 

 

That's really all I have to say. Its really difficult to effectively measure how good a catcher is at calling a game other than by just watching the games and seeing how they flow with a certain catcher behind the plate.

 

 

However these stats are interesting, will be intriguing to see how they play out throughout the year.

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If we are going to have Willy catching we better trade for a LFer or CFer that will put up decent numbers. I rather have Willy in left and Olivo catching than Willy catching, Aguila in LF with Abercrombie/Reed in center.

 

 

It would be wise to look toward the future and not just this year. In the long-run it is best for the club to have Willingham's bat coming out of the C position. He needs to get at least a couple of starts a week to continue his progress behind the plate. He had a great spring and he needs to keep getting some reps to build on that momentum. When the club is looking to make a serious run at the playoffs there will be an OF'er available and his bat will probably be a lot better than Aguila's.

 

As far as the pitching stats go, that's a bunch of bull. Even in a rotation where one catcher catches everyone, the pitching stats vary greatly from pitcher to pitcher.

If Willingham has just caught one pitcher, there is not acceptable way to compare his catching ability to O's by looking at strikes, balls, hits, runs, ect..

Now, looking at offensive production when both are in the game going against the same pitchers....

That will tell you something.

Calvin, this isn't about your post specifically but I'll use it if you don't mind as a jumping off post.

 

I thnk people here have to make a decision for themselves about this year's team. Either a guy like Willingham learns to become a catcher by playing the position regardless of the impact on the team offensively or defensively, or not. People can't it have both ways moaning about the team's performance on one hand and then say a guy should get on the job training on the other.

 

Either we look at this season as practice for the rest of the decade and chalk it up to experience, or we play the most capable player(s) (in this case Olivo over Willingham at C and JW in LF) and try to win as frequently as possible.

 

People can't have it both ways.

 

For myself, I take the long view and I'll leave it to Girardi without second-guessing his decision, but it gets frustrating here having a band of naysayers who want a higher level of baseball played and yet want their favorite rookie playing too. The same goes with CF. Either you let an Abercrombie (or Reed) fall on his face for three months as he learns to play at this level and stop complaining or you bring in someone who can play the position and forget about the kids.

 

 

 

Make a choice.

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Sure, Olivo is a solid catcher, but the way he's hitting it's basically like haivng two pitchers in the batting order.

 

We have done this before...anyone remember Greg Zaun?? I know bringing this guy's name up is almost blasphemous, but at least Olivo can play defense and throw guys out. Also, when Charles Johnson was in a funk, he was about a poor of a hitting catcher as you can get. The problem is that we also have Uggla, Reed, Abercrombie, Aguila, etc...these guys should all be hitting 8th, but unfortunately, we have nobody else. If we had Luis, Pierre, and a host of bench players, I don't think Olivo would be a bad fit - and you could bat him 8th no problem. Hopefully, these other guys will start to hit and we can afford to have a black hole in the 8th spot.

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You cant look to much into that because Olivo hasnt caught Moehler and Hammer hasnt caught Willis, Mitre, Vargas

It's early, obviously. But these are the stats so far.It's what is called a junk stat. The calculation of something that tells you nothing of substance.

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People can't have it both ways.

Sure you can... if you believe a) Olivo's not a very good catcher, b) believe Willingham's catching is better than junk stats and the opinions of scouts with a twisted sense of judging a player's intangibles, c) believe Aguila will hit well in a starting role, d) all of the above

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