That's because you throw crap up, hoping something sticks. And when there's stuff posted to the contrary of what you say, you do the Sgt. Schultz shtick of, "I see nothing, I hear nothing I KNOOOOW NOTHIIIIIIINNGGG!!!!"

And when there's stuff posted to the contrary of what you say, you do the Sgt. Schultz shtick of, "I see nothing, I hear nothing I KNOOOOW NOTHIIIIIIINNGGG!!!!"

Well, that's true.

The Iraqi government currently in power voted in favor of asking our military to leave.

 

There aren't any good solutions to this situation. Leaving is the best of these bad options, because it gets our soldiers out of the way.

 

The Iraqis aren't going to make any more steps in the right direction while we are still there. They refuse to take any real initiative as a government, or as a people. They also need to fight things out amongst themselves.

 

As people have noted before, we certainly wouldn't have appreciated the French solving our problems following the Revolutionary War. If they had tried to occupy the 13 colonies, we would have fought against them just like we did against the British. It's not that surprising that this is happening in Iraq. They just don't trust our motives, especially after four years of countless death and destruction.

 

 

But it seems as if in that report, theyre sayign they dont like us there but they need us there

The educated in Iraq seem to feel that way, but overall, the country's population is against us.

 

 

The article says nothing to the contrary, but I rather have a discussion as to what people think on the view that the 'educated' in Iraq believe this way. Do they have a good reason to? And does this change anything? It is much more relevant than pointing out that the masses want us gone.

The Iraqi government currently in power voted in favor of asking our military to leave.

 

There aren't any good solutions to this situation. Leaving is the best of these bad options, because it gets our soldiers out of the way.

 

The Iraqis aren't going to make any more steps in the right direction while we are still there. They refuse to take any real initiative as a government, or as a people. They also need to fight things out amongst themselves.

 

As people have noted before, we certainly wouldn't have appreciated the French solving our problems following the Revolutionary War. If they had tried to occupy the 13 colonies, we would have fought against them just like we did against the British. It's not that surprising that this is happening in Iraq. They just don't trust our motives, especially after four years of countless death and destruction.

 

 

But it seems as if in that report, theyre sayign they dont like us there but they need us there

The educated in Iraq seem to feel that way, but overall, the country's population is against us.

 

 

The article says nothing to the contrary, but I rather have a discussion as to what people think on the view that the 'educated' in Iraq believe this way. Do they have a good reason to? And does this change anything? It is much more relevant than pointing out that the masses want us gone.

 

Just for the sake of being factual can someone provide real stats on the Iraqi people?

 

 

I can throw sh*t on a wall too and hope it sticks. (This is in no way directed at you, legacy).

 

I think the educated in Iraq have alterior motives for wanting us there.

 

Let there be civil war, I say. In all honesty, the country should be allowed to split up. The British screwed the pooch with the borders (as did France with Lebanon namely but thats another discussion for another time). Of course it would likely destabilize the entire region but there has to be a reordering of the countries. Much like in Africa, the arbitrary partitions have caused much pain and much suffering in the past 80 (almost 90) years. I do sincerely believe a lot of problems would be solved there (at least for Iraq).

 

But if Civil War comes, we have to bring the troops home. We shouldn't be fighting their war, or have we forgotten Vietnam? (Vietnam we were on the right track with but media made the war too real for us at home)

Beinfest said it right.

 

They must go through their own nation-building process. The West has created artificial borders in many places, such as Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia. Now they have to go through the same process Europe went through in the last several centuries.

 

It is unfortunate that many people will die, but that is the reality of human political evolution.

Beinfest said it right.

 

They must go through their own nation-building process. The West has created artificial borders in many places, such as Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia. Now they have to go through the same process Europe went through in the last several centuries.

 

It is unfortunate that many people will die, but that is the reality of human political evolution.

 

Except that in Iraq we created the mess, so why shouldnt we be the ones to fix it? And B4P, the only thing I'm relying on is what it says in this article, I haven't seen any polls saying the Iraqi's want us out, not b/c they dont exist I just haven't gone around looking for them.

Beinfest said it right.

 

They must go through their own nation-building process. The West has created artificial borders in many places, such as Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia. Now they have to go through the same process Europe went through in the last several centuries.

 

It is unfortunate that many people will die, but that is the reality of human political evolution.

 

Except that in Iraq we created the mess, so why shouldnt we be the ones to fix it? And B4P, the only thing I'm relying on is what it says in this article, I haven't seen any polls saying the Iraqi's want us out, not b/c they dont exist I just haven't gone around looking for them.

 

We didn't create the mess. The English and other European colonial powers helped to create these artificial borders.

Beinfest said it right.

 

They must go through their own nation-building process. The West has created artificial borders in many places, such as Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia. Now they have to go through the same process Europe went through in the last several centuries.

 

It is unfortunate that many people will die, but that is the reality of human political evolution.

 

Except that in Iraq we created the mess, so why shouldnt we be the ones to fix it? And B4P, the only thing I'm relying on is what it says in this article, I haven't seen any polls saying the Iraqi's want us out, not b/c they dont exist I just haven't gone around looking for them.

 

We didn't create the mess. The English and other European colonial powers helped to create these artificial borders.

 

Well I'm referring to the fact we got rid of Saddam, who was controlling the factions within his country relatively well, albeit brutally. So b/c we interfered in 2003, we have a duty to fix the mess we started, b/c letting them build the naiton o ntheir own would have been more down the lines of letting them dispose of Saddam themselves.

Beinfest said it right.

 

They must go through their own nation-building process. The West has created artificial borders in many places, such as Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia. Now they have to go through the same process Europe went through in the last several centuries.

 

It is unfortunate that many people will die, but that is the reality of human political evolution.

 

Except that in Iraq we created the mess, so why shouldnt we be the ones to fix it? And B4P, the only thing I'm relying on is what it says in this article, I haven't seen any polls saying the Iraqi's want us out, not b/c they dont exist I just haven't gone around looking for them.

 

We didn't create the mess. The English and other European colonial powers helped to create these artificial borders.

 

Well I'm referring to the fact we got rid of Saddam, who was controlling the factions within his country relatively well, albeit brutally. So b/c we interfered in 2003, we have a duty to fix the mess we started, b/c letting them build the naiton o ntheir own would have been more down the lines of letting them dispose of Saddam themselves.

 

Good point. I think this probably would have happened once Saddam died, unless Saddam managed to provide for a smooth transition prior to his death.

 

But, how are we going to fix it? So we know ultimately what the result should be? I don't think anyone does.

Beinfest said it right.

 

They must go through their own nation-building process. The West has created artificial borders in many places, such as Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia. Now they have to go through the same process Europe went through in the last several centuries.

 

It is unfortunate that many people will die, but that is the reality of human political evolution.

 

Except that in Iraq we created the mess, so why shouldnt we be the ones to fix it? And B4P, the only thing I'm relying on is what it says in this article, I haven't seen any polls saying the Iraqi's want us out, not b/c they dont exist I just haven't gone around looking for them.

 

I know, I was refering to FutureGM's assertion.

 

Yes, we created the current mess in the power vacuum left by Saddam but it was the British who screwed it up to begin with.

I agree that these borders were artificially created by the Europeans (primarily the British). The problem with this whole situation that no one has been discussing is that the Turks are threatening to invade Iraq in order to suppress a Kurdish uprising in their own country. The Kurds believe that the area called "Kurdistan" exists within the borders of the actual countries of Iraq, Turkey, and maybe a bit of Iran. Turkey is paranoid that their Kurdish minority will join the autonomous Kurdish region in Northern Iraq to create their own new nation. Personally I think they should be allowed to form their own country, but the Turks have a military that can easily turn the Middle East into a firestorm if they send troops into Northern Iraq.

 

Yes, we removed Saddam, but we also did our best to give the Iraqis a working democratic government. The problem is, these elected officials plainly suck. They went on vacation for too long, especially with the country in flames. They also refuse to take responsibility for their country, and seem intent on letting our soldiers continue to do all the work. Unfortunately we just can't solve all of their problems. It won't matter if we stay for 10, 20, or 100 years. They have to sort out their differences and decide whether they want to form their own separate governments, or cooperate.

I agree that these borders were artificially created by the Europeans (primarily the British). The problem with this whole situation that no one has been discussing is that the Turks are threatening to invade Iraq in order to suppress a Kurdish uprising in their own country. The Kurds believe that the area called "Kurdistan" exists within the borders of the actual countries of Iraq, Turkey, and maybe a bit of Iran. Turkey is paranoid that their Kurdish minority will join the autonomous Kurdish region in Northern Iraq to create their own new nation. Personally I think they should be allowed to form their own country, but the Turks have a military that can easily turn the Middle East into a firestorm if they send troops into Northern Iraq.

 

Yup.

 

When we leave I believe the following will happen:

 

1) All hell will break loose, and the Shiite and Sunnis will engage in a bloody civil war;

2) Turkey invades northern Iraq to keep the Kurds from declaring independence;

3) Iran will step in and help/protect the Shiite;

4) Saudi Arabia will step in and help/protect the Sunnis

 

In other words, a massive and deadly regional war.

 

Unless we are prepared to stay in Iraq for 10, 15, 20 more years, the above result is virtually inevitable.

 

I know I am a Debbie Downer, but that's what's coming.

Here's an article I found about the Turkey situation:

 

c/o ABCNews.com-

 

By BUSHRA JUHI Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD Jul 9, 2007 (AP)

 

Turkey has massed 140,000 soldiers on its border with northern Iraq, Iraq's foreign minister said Monday, calling the neighboring country's fears of Kurdish rebels based there "legitimate" but better resolved through negotiation.

 

In Washington, a Pentagon official disputed the claim by Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, a Kurd from northern Iraq, and said satellite photos indicated no such troop buildup. A State Department spokesman also played down the allegation.

 

It was unclear where Zebari got the figures. If accurate, Turkey would have nearly as many soldiers along its border with Iraq as the 155,000 troops which the U.S. has in the country.

 

Zebari's comments came amid calls by Turkey's military for the government to give it the green light to carry out military operations in northern Iraqi against the rebel Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK.

 

"Turkey is building up forces on the border. There are 140,000 soldiers fully armed on the border. We are against any military interference or violation of Iraqi sovereignty," Zebari said in Baghdad.

 

Turkey has been pressuring the United States and Iraq to eliminate PKK bases in Kurdish-controlled parts of northern Iraq and has said it will carry out a cross-border offensive if necessary.

 

"Turkey's fears are legitimate but such things can be discussed," Zebari said. "The perfect solution is the withdrawal of the Turkish forces from the borders."

 

He added: "No one wants a new military conflict in the region."

 

He said there had been no "Turkey military violation until now," citing artillery shelling and Turkish surveillance overflights.

 

But in Washington, a Pentagon official disputed Zebari's assertion that troops were massing, saying no such movement has been picked up by U.S. satellites gathering intelligence there. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to speak on the record about the subject.

 

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said he would "steer you away from that number of troops being immediately along the border," and Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman repeated U.S. hopes that Turkey would not launch an incursion into Iraq.

 

"With respect to Turkey and the border region, they have legitimate concerns about terrorist activity of the PKK," Whitman told Pentagon reporters Monday. "But we're also encouraging them that an incursion into Iraq is not the way to solve this."

 

Turkey has long complained of U.S. inaction against separatist rebels, who have escalated attacks inside Turkey in recent months. Last week, Turkey's military chief asked the government to set political guidelines for an incursion into northern Iraq.

 

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul on Friday confirmed that detailed incursion plans were ready.

 

Zebari said that his government cannot send its troops to secure the border with Turkey at a time when U.S. and Iraqi forces are fighting a deadly insurgency that has killed thousands of people.

 

"Our military forces are over-occupied with securing the streets and we do not have forces enough to open a new front. We do not want any conflict. However, no military violation has taken place till now," Zebari said.

 

Turkey has been battling separatist Kurdish rebels since 1984 in a conflict that has killed tens of thousands of people. There has been a recent surge in rebel attacks, and 67 soldiers have been killed this year. More than 110 rebels were killed in the same period, according to the Turkish military.

 

Zebari said the best way is to address Turkey's "legitimate security concerns" and revive the security and military commission which is made up of the United States, Iraq and Turkey.

 

Associated Press writer Pauline Jelinek contributed to this report from Washington.

 

Link

Maybe Turkey should think about fixing its own Kurdish problem first, the problem it created by itself by repressing Kurdish culture, language, and education.

Now you've got Dick Luger, Voinevich, and Domenici calling for a pullout too. GOP support is getting hard to find.

Even the loyal troops like Mitch McConnell are starting to slip.