You mean besides Rich and Tommy felating him every time he hits a bloop single that the other team missplays?

i mean on this board, the intelligent marlins fans, rich and tommy are talking nonsense most of the time, which i miss anyway when i attend the games with the other 29 of us

Amezaga gets plenty of love, but the "intelligent" posters know what kind of player he is and that you have to temper your excitement when talking about a converted SS player CF and posting career highs in every category. He's on a really nice run lately, but it can't last. Because he's Alfredo Amezaga.

well that's exactly what i'm talking about. because he has a silly name, is tiny, from mexico, and an untouted guy who went to st. petersburg college or whatever. i'm not saying i'll be really excited if he is our starting center fielder on opening day 2008 but to say you know what type of player he is has nothing to do with his performance.

I have no problem with the job Amezaga's done for us.

 

I have a problem if his performance this season has been parlayed into job security for 2008.

 

If we're going to "go for it" in season, our limited resources should ABSOLUTELY be used on upgrading the rotation.

 

The offseason is the time to go find a centerfielder and catcher (unless, as some have openly suggested, 2008 is Hayes' job to lose).

I think Mitre will continue to be good next season. I've always thought he has nasty stuff.

Quite frankly, Swift, I'm beginning to think that the rotation might need to be upgraded for the 2008 run as well. I'm not expecting much out of Olsen and Willis next season (assuming he stays) and there is the likely possibility that Sanchez and Johnson won't stay healthy. Therefore, the only bright spot will be whoever is deemed to be ML ready from our system by opening day 2008.

 

The more I think about it, Dontrelle Willis absolutely must be dealt before the start of the 2008 season in order for this team to contend. There are considerable holes that need to be filled and Dontrelle Willis is the only piece available to fill those said holes with decent, ML ready talent. I don't know how truthful that recent Fox Sports article was, but the Marlins need to conduct a deal like that to bring in a decent catcher and centerfielder.

 

I hope Dontrelle's absymal 2007 season and salary will only facilitate Beinfest's decision. As an aside, many of us think Dontrelle has a rough road ahead of him, so I honestly believe that ridding the team of a 4.70+ ERA pitcher for the 2008 season will not open an entirely new hole.

 

I'm sure this will be an unpopular decision among the fans, but I see no other way around it. It is a wrong course of action to take to keep a player just because he has a "nice guy" personality and is a fan favorite. Same thing goes for Juan Pierre who is by no means earning his paycheck in Los Angeles.

 

My mindset is in 2008 you get a do-over with some guys like Anibal and JJ being healthy, and I truly believe a healthy Anibal can completely revamp this rotation.

 

Vandy's emergence lets you roll the dice on Mitre and Nolasco, see who has more value and go get a centerfielder. I think we can keep Dontrelle and be fine because if he's slotted in as a #4, he'll at least give us 200 innings, and that's something we need.

 

If we roll out a 2008 rotation of Sanchez/JJ/Olsen/Willis/Vanden Hurk and/or replace Olsen/Willis with Mitre and use the odd men out of Willis/Olsen/Mitre/Nolasco to go get a centerfielder, I think 2008 looks pretty darn good with that rotation, Hanley, Cabrera, Hammer and Hermida. To be honest, if we were getting Anibal back at the end of the month, I'd feel completely different about our chances this season, too, I believe he's that much of a difference maker.

 

If Amezaga can stay hot for a period of time, and when he cools someone like Hammer or Hermida starts heating up, I think the offense can pull Olivo's deadweight and be fine, not great, but fine.

 

The biggest thing holding us back this season, aside from the hole we've dug ourselves into, is the rotation. We don't have one guy that we can look at and say "oh yeah, I want him out there because I know we'll win." You have players like that here by default.

The offseason is the time to go find a centerfielder and catcher (unless, as some have openly suggested, 2008 is Hayes' job to lose).

I don't know about anybody else but I really liked the look of Paul Hoover in spring training. Hitting .294/.345/.490/.836 in 18 games with Albuquerque this year.

 

Am I completely out of line in thinking that he might compete for a spot next year?

Quite frankly, Swift, I'm beginning to think that the rotation might need to be upgraded for the 2008 run as well. I'm not expecting much out of Olsen and Willis next season (assuming he stays) and there is the likely possibility that Sanchez and Johnson won't stay healthy. Therefore, the only bright spot will be whoever is deemed to be ML ready from our system by opening day 2008.

 

The more I think about it, Dontrelle Willis absolutely must be dealt before the start of the 2008 season in order for this team to contend. There are considerable holes that need to be filled and Dontrelle Willis is the only piece available to fill those said holes with decent, ML ready talent. I don't know how truthful that recent Fox Sports article was, but the Marlins need to conduct a deal like that to bring in a decent catcher and centerfielder.

 

I hope Dontrelle's absymal 2007 season and salary will only facilitate Beinfest's decision. As an aside, many of us think Dontrelle has a rough road ahead of him, so I honestly believe that ridding the team of a 4.70+ ERA pitcher for the 2008 season will not open an entirely new hole.

 

I'm sure this will be an unpopular decision among the fans, but I see no other way around it. It is a wrong course of action to take to keep a player just because he has a "nice guy" personality and is a fan favorite. Same thing goes for Juan Pierre who is by no means earning his paycheck in Los Angeles.

 

My mindset is in 2008 you get a do-over with some guys like Anibal and JJ being healthy, and I truly believe a healthy Anibal can completely revamp this rotation.

 

Vandy's emergence lets you roll the dice on Mitre and Nolasco, see who has more value and go get a centerfielder. I think we can keep Dontrelle and be fine because if he's slotted in as a #4, he'll at least give us 200 innings, and that's something we need.

 

If we roll out a 2008 rotation of Sanchez/JJ/Olsen/Willis/Vanden Hurk and/or replace Olsen/Willis with Mitre and use the odd men out of Willis/Olsen/Mitre/Nolasco to go get a centerfielder, I think 2008 looks pretty darn good with that rotation, Hanley, Cabrera, Hammer and Hermida. To be honest, if we were getting Anibal back at the end of the month, I'd feel completely different about our chances this season, too, I believe he's that much of a difference maker.

 

If Amezaga can stay hot for a period of time, and when he cools someone like Hammer or Hermida starts heating up, I think the offense can pull Olivo's deadweight and be fine, not great, but fine.

 

The biggest thing holding us back this season, aside from the hole we've dug ourselves into, is the rotation. We don't have one guy that we can look at and say "oh yeah, I want him out there because I know we'll win." You have players like that here by default.

Hopefully De Aza can come back and show his wares again in CF as well

The offseason is the time to go find a centerfielder and catcher (unless, as some have openly suggested, 2008 is Hayes' job to lose).

I don't know about anybody else but I really liked the look of Paul Hoover in spring training. Hitting .294/.345/.490/.836 in 18 games with Albuquerque this year.

 

Am I completely out of line in thinking that he might compete for a spot next year?

 

 

If he wasn't 31, maybe. And if those splits weren't extremely small in sample size.

 

But you're talking about a 31 year old catcher with a career minor league OPS of .739. Just last year, he only had an OPS of .765 while getting 302 ABs.

 

Even Treanor's probably a better hitter than Hoover.

The offseason is the time to go find a centerfielder and catcher (unless, as some have openly suggested, 2008 is Hayes' job to lose).

I don't know about anybody else but I really liked the look of Paul Hoover in spring training. Hitting .294/.345/.490/.836 in 18 games with Albuquerque this year.

 

Am I completely out of line in thinking that he might compete for a spot next year?

Yea, you probably are

To be honest, if we were getting Anibal back at the end of the month, I'd feel completely different about our chances this season, too, I believe he's that much of a difference maker.

I love Anibal too and think he has all the potential in the world, but the only negative I remember hearing when we acquired him during the Beckett deal was a warning about his health. I'm very concerned he won't be able to physically endure a ML season.

 

Also, there isn't a pitcher in our entire system (both Majors and Minors) who shouldn't have a question mark next to his name. 2007 has turned into a rude awakening for our pitching future. Aside from RVH and Mitre, every Major League quality pitcher in our system has performed below expectations, and I'm losing hope that we'll be able to make a legitimate run year.

To be honest, if we were getting Anibal back at the end of the month, I'd feel completely different about our chances this season, too, I believe he's that much of a difference maker.

I love Anibal too and think he has all the potential in the world, but the only negative I remember hearing when we acquired him during the Beckett deal was a warning about his health. I'm very concerned he won't be able to physically endure a ML season.

 

Also, there isn't a pitcher in our entire system (both Majors and Minors) who shouldn't have a question mark next to his name. 2007 has turned into a rude awakening for our pitching future. Aside from RVH and Mitre, every Major League quality pitcher in our system has performed below expectations, and I'm losing hope that we'll be able to make a legitimate run year.

 

Yeah, but there's a tremendous difference from having a fragile pitcher, and having a pitcher miss the year.

 

You can't plan around a guy missing 6 months at a time, but you can kind of anticipate a missed start or a DL stint. It's more unlikely for a team to use 5 starters all season than it is for a team to use 7 or 8.

 

And with Anibal, it's another of those just dumb luck injuries, it's not like Pedro where you just bank on that labrum acting up, Anibal had TJ with the Red Sox and then severe nerve damage, now with us it's his labrum, who knows, next year it may be his knee....whatever, injuries to pitchers happen and fluke ones, as long as it's not a recurring injury, it's more tolerable.

Quite frankly, Swift, I'm beginning to think that the rotation might need to be upgraded for the 2008 run as well. I'm not expecting much out of Olsen and Willis next season (assuming he stays) and there is the likely possibility that Sanchez and Johnson won't stay healthy. Therefore, the only bright spot will be whoever is deemed to be ML ready from our system by opening day 2008.

 

The more I think about it, Dontrelle Willis absolutely must be dealt before the start of the 2008 season in order for this team to contend. There are considerable holes that need to be filled and Dontrelle Willis is the only piece available to fill those said holes with decent, ML ready talent. I don't know how truthful that recent Fox Sports article was, but the Marlins need to conduct a deal like that to bring in a decent catcher and centerfielder.

 

I hope Dontrelle's absymal 2007 season and salary will only facilitate Beinfest's decision. As an aside, many of us think Dontrelle has a rough road ahead of him, so I honestly believe that ridding the team of a 4.70+ ERA pitcher for the 2008 season will not open an entirely new hole.

 

I'm sure this will be an unpopular decision among the fans, but I see no other way around it. It is a wrong course of action to take to keep a player just because he has a "nice guy" personality and is a fan favorite. Same thing goes for Juan Pierre who is by no means earning his paycheck in Los Angeles.

 

My mindset is in 2008 you get a do-over with some guys like Anibal and JJ being healthy, and I truly believe a healthy Anibal can completely revamp this rotation.

 

Vandy's emergence lets you roll the dice on Mitre and Nolasco, see who has more value and go get a centerfielder. I think we can keep Dontrelle and be fine because if he's slotted in as a #4, he'll at least give us 200 innings, and that's something we need.

 

If we roll out a 2008 rotation of Sanchez/JJ/Olsen/Willis/Vanden Hurk and/or replace Olsen/Willis with Mitre and use the odd men out of Willis/Olsen/Mitre/Nolasco to go get a centerfielder, I think 2008 looks pretty darn good with that rotation, Hanley, Cabrera, Hammer and Hermida. To be honest, if we were getting Anibal back at the end of the month, I'd feel completely different about our chances this season, too, I believe he's that much of a difference maker.

 

If Amezaga can stay hot for a period of time, and when he cools someone like Hammer or Hermida starts heating up, I think the offense can pull Olivo's deadweight and be fine, not great, but fine.

 

The biggest thing holding us back this season, aside from the hole we've dug ourselves into, is the rotation. We don't have one guy that we can look at and say "oh yeah, I want him out there because I know we'll win." You have players like that here by default.

 

That all comes down to whether or not all of the arms (particularly Johnson and Sanchez) remain healthy. If I had to make a prediction, I would lean toward them seeing considerable DL time, based primarily on how they have been recovering from their respective injury problems and their overall severity.

 

In all honesty, Dontrelle Willis is the only pitcher of the entire bunch that I can with resonable certainty will pitch without a DL stint. Unfortunately, the quality of those starts overall could very well raise the point that he would be better use to the Fish as a trading piece. With the exception of Nolasco and maybe Johnson, Willis is probably the weakest arm of the bunch.

 

I am not questioning the stuff of Sanchez, Mitre, Vanden Hurk, or even Olsen if he gets his head together, but if the Marlins don't bring in any outside pitching the entire 2008 season will be contingent on how healthy the rotation remains and how consistent it is, despite missing a whole year of ML experience (in the instance of Johnson, Sanchez, and Nolasco).

 

I hope for the Marlins sake, Willis has a good outing tonight.

 

Fair enough, but I'm not sold on Willis bringing back the package we think he should in the offseason.

 

Said it before and I'll say it again, the Marlins are at the point now where Dontrelle probably has more value to the team in all of the intangibles than he will return in trade. He's been downright putrid and the GM's that are, for lack of a better word, overwhelmed by 'names' either don't have the pieces to make a trade we'd like or won't move them. And, I truly believe the Marlins when they say they're not moving Dontrelle in season, so that means his asking price comes down considerably.

 

Where that leaves me is that you have two surprise arms from this season in Mitre (in terms of effectiveness) and Vanden Hurk (in terms of "readiness"), to go with the 2006 starting 5 of JJ/Willis/Olsen/Sanchez/Nolasco. Gaby Hernandez'll probably enter the discussion in 2008, too. So, let's just pretend that Gaby's off limits as an insurance policy, the Marlins can dangle Mitre/Vandy/Willis/Olsen for the 2007 offseason's Alex Rios and come away just dandy.

 

I don't think we're at the point where Dontrelle and only Dontrelle is the guy we trade to make us better, I believe he's making the decision really easy, but there are so many arms of interchangeable quality on this staff (read, a collection of #3 guys and maaaaybe a #1/2) that we're looking an interesting bargaining position for the team.

 

Now, of course, I have to conclude all of this by saying I have zero faith in Admin Beinfest to maximize the value of our starters outside of Dontrelle, and even in that case I think current performance has left that as a dubious task.

If this team wants to compete we need to get our defense up the middle made top notch starting at catcher, getting Hanley and Uggla playing good defense and a top notch defensive CF as well.

How about we hope some of our collegiate CF prospects wins the job in ST, Hayes takes over at C, and we can have a rotation of Train/JJ/Scotty O/Anibal/Vanden Hurk and not have to worry about losing anything in the rotation.

Yeah, I'm not sold on Anibal being an ace. He was great in 05, but his K rate was way too low to be an ace.

I just dont understand why Rob Sutton never got that chance to play CF?

How about we hope some of our collegiate CF prospects wins the job in ST, Hayes takes over at C, and we can have a rotation of Train/JJ/Scotty O/Anibal/Vanden Hurk and not have to worry about losing anything in the rotation.

Because that is an absolutely huge stretch for anyone not named Brett Carroll. He is the only one who is even close right now.

 

Cousins, Raynor, McDougal, Burns are all ways away (barring a promotion to Jupiter where they light the world on fire, an AFL where they dominate, and a spring training where that continues)