Certainly not to diminish the tragedy, but when are Malls going to install metal detectors? Wait a second before you crucify me.... if I knew I'd be relatively safe shopping somewhere, I woudn't mind walking through an archway. And shopping is a priviledge, not a right. What the hell are you doing in a mall with a firearm, anyway?

When I am home on liberty, I carry my 1911 .45 ACP with me at all times, including when I go to the mall. Why? Because I won't allow some punk teenage kid trying to make a name for himself decide my fate or my families fate. It is my right as an American to carry a firearm, it's a right that I defend everyday as a US Marine, and it's a right that no one, especially not some corporation or a store in a mall will take away from me. Metal detectors won't do jack in preventing tragedies, loving parents and a normal childhood will go a lot farther in preventing sh*t like this from happening than any metal detector. If you think a metal detector or a no firearms sign or some trash would have stopped this or any other incident from happening, you're wrong.

saying you want to be there in the mall is like saying i wanted to be in the towers on 9/11...

 

maybe...just maybe...we shouldnt have kids popping depression pills and being able to buy a gun at his local conveinence store when he is clearly f***ED UP...the only thing this country has learned about gun violence is that it is now an acceptable part of life and we wont do a damn thing to change tht

Sorry, but 16 year old kids can't walk into their local convenience store and buy a gun. I'm a 22 year old US Marine and I can't even buy a gun without having to go through a background check and 5 day waiting period every single damn time I buy one, which is often. Your statement and argument is baseless and you have zero experience with anything even remotely close to the topic at hand.

saying you want to be there in the mall is like saying i wanted to be in the towers on 9/11...

 

maybe...just maybe...we shouldnt have kids popping depression pills and being able to buy a gun at his local conveinence store when he is clearly f***ED UP...the only thing this country has learned about gun violence is that it is now an acceptable part of life and we wont do a damn thing to change tht

Sorry, but 16 year old kids can't walk into their local convenience store and buy a gun. I'm a 22 year old US Marine and I can't even buy a gun without having to go through a background check and 5 day waiting period every single damn time I buy one, which is often. Your statement and argument is baseless and you have zero experience with anything even remotely close to the topic at hand.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you are almost griping that you have to go through the background check and waiting period.

I'll take sh*t for this but I think the gun free zone in the mall killed more people then anything

Certainly not to diminish the tragedy, but when are Malls going to install metal detectors? Wait a second before you crucify me.... if I knew I'd be relatively safe shopping somewhere, I woudn't mind walking through an archway. And shopping is a priviledge, not a right. What the hell are you doing in a mall with a firearm, anyway?

When I am home on liberty, I carry my 1911 .45 ACP with me at all times, including when I go to the mall. Why? Because I won't allow some punk teenage kid trying to make a name for himself decide my fate or my families fate. It is my right as an American to carry a firearm, it's a right that I defend everyday as a US Marine, and it's a right that no one, especially not some corporation or a store in a mall will take away from me. Metal detectors won't do jack in preventing tragedies, loving parents and a normal childhood will go a lot farther in preventing sh*t like this from happening than any metal detector. If you think a metal detector or a no firearms sign or some trash would have stopped this or any other incident from happening, you're wrong.

 

Agreed 100,000,000%.

It could but that's quite an unusual scenario and that can't be used to refute that carrying a firearm would make you safer.

Would it not be clear who the person who is shooting unarmed civilians is and who isn't?

 

Also, a hypothetical that involves everyone in a mall carrying a concealed weapon is unrealistic.

I think he will say he'd rather have his fate in his own hands than at the mercy of others.

 

And I'd say the same thing.

...just the same way you can't say your scenario 'is for sure'.

 

That example is devoid of human reasoning, intelligence, and communication.

You made up a scenario that had people acting in a way that would create a proverbial domino effect.

 

Sorry if I don't find that realistic.

Of course that is going to happen, but in your initial example you left out simple things that exist like communication.

 

Plus, I was more talking about this line

I would guess a lot of people would just shoot whoever else they see holding a weapon.

I don't think people who have a concealed weapon are just going to carelessly open up fire on multiple people. In this Mall shooting, the kid was standing and firing. I'd imagine that ordinary citizens with a concealed weapon would not be standing and walking around and shooting. They'd more than likely be barricaded and/or slightly hidden. Not out in the open.

 

Plus, once the murderer was shot, there would be no more fire so the domino effect doesn't hold much weight to me.

 

There has already been a recent example of how concealed weapons can save lives. In the Colorado Church shooting, the woman who was strapped was able to kill the shooter before he did more damage. They estimated he may have been able to kill 50 to 100 more people if she had not shot him.

In the "what if" situation that was given of 2 shooters and the ensuing confusion.......

 

 

 

Things like this can and have happened. It happened on a college campus within the last 2 or 3 years or so (a Florida campus). An off duty officer who was enforcing underage drinking got into a disturbance with a large group of students and drew his firearm.

 

Another off duty officer (a reserve officer I believe) saw the off duty cop do this and he shot and killed the officer (they worked for different agencies and Im sure several policy changes have been put in place since to better communication).

 

But the point is it can happen. FWIW, Reserve Officers have no business pulling their firearms out and shooting people unless they are 1000% sure what is going on.

 

 

 

With all that said, the possible confusion is a necessary evil and sometimes bad things will happen. In most cases, like Fox mentioned, it will be very clear who the maniac is and who the potential hero is in a shooting scenario. 95% of the people involved will have severe tunnel vision and experiencing severe "flight or fight" anyway so its not like everyone will be pulling out guns left and right.

The Colorado Springs incident is different because she was supposedly a designated security guard, albeit not on a payroll.

She had no designation and is an ordinary citizen/volunteer who is licensed to carry a gun. That church had 7,000 people on its campus at the time. I'm sure it was chaotic.

I am seldom a proponent of the use of deadly force. These are some pretty extreme examples. Obviously, I would have been happy to snipe the Omaha Mall shooter but I don't think that is very realistic. I am also not a fan of every random Joe walking the streets with their own personal assault rifle. There needs to be a middle ground.

 

Maybe mall cops SHOULD be trained and licensed to carry a weapon? Maybe campus security should do the same? Where do we draw the line, though? Schools? Houses of worship? My dentist's office?

I think everyone should have the right to carry a handgun, concealed, anywhere except a school if they are not an ex-con and can pass a simple psychiatric test.

 

I personally don't feel I need to carry a gun because of my personal way of life but if there is ever a time I need to, I think I should absolutely be able to. The constitution gives me this right.

 

I own a shotgun for home protection and I'm glad that my state didn't make me get a permit to use it for my own home and personal safety.

 

My brother is very much a liberal but the one thing he is totally against is gun control. When he lived in California after college he wanted to be able to carry a concealed weapon. Suits his lifestyle and personal preference. The hoops he had to go through to acquire the weapon are nearly unconstitutional to me.

 

I agree with yf21 that the guards in a mall should absolutely be trained and armed.

In NYS, carrying permit rules vary by County. It isn't very hard, but it takes long enough that if you are doing it because you have a grudge and want to shoot someone, you have plenty of time to think about it. You also have to take a safety course and have a background check. The other interesting thing is that you have to have been a resident of the County for over a year and get 4 signatures from County residents that will support your request and vouch for you.

 

I'm like Fox in that I'm not about gun control but carrying doesn't fit my life style. On the other hand, I can see WHY certain people feel there is a need for gun control and why certain types of weapons seem excessive. Idiots like these only add fuel to the fire.

 

Again, I see the problems but can't offer any solutions.

I am seldom a proponent of the use of deadly force. These are some pretty extreme examples. Obviously, I would have been happy to snipe the Omaha Mall shooter but I don't think that is very realistic. I am also not a fan of every random Joe walking the streets with their own personal assault rifle. There needs to be a middle ground.

 

Maybe mall cops SHOULD be trained and licensed to carry a weapon? Maybe campus security should do the same? Where do we draw the line, though? Schools? Houses of worship? My dentist's office?

And that's the problem. In these cases of people going above and beyond, they are mostly professionals.

 

The last thing we need is a bunch of wannabe-Rambos with their finger on the trigger in situations like this. That will result in more deaths. I think the course of action our country needs to take is simply better training of the security individuals who aren't actually police officers.

 

The media should also finally wake up and stop immortalizing these clowns.

The woman in Colorado was not a professional.

 

Just licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

Still not a professional.

 

Volunteer with the right to carry a concealed weapon.

 

You've gone to extremes in your examples while having blinders on to outside reason. Zero point in continuing to discuss it.

She was not 'hired'. (Note: volunteer) She is a member of the church who volunteered and was one of those selected.

...then volunteers as a guard during another service.

 

Boyd said Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.

 

Boyd said there are 15 to 20 security people at the church. All are volunteers but the only ones armed are those who are licensed to carry weapons.

 

The security guards are members of the church who are screened and not "mercenaries that we hire to walk around our campus to provide security," Boyd said.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

She obviously did, but you do know there are requirements for getting the right to carry a concealed weapon in most states, right?

 

I'd venture a guess that most people who go through the trouble of carrying a concealed weapon are not just your stereotype 'Rambo' and are responsible people who feel more comfortable with their weapon on person at all times and want to utilize a right given to them by the constitution.

 

This is the requirement from my brother's license in California:

Each applicant will be interviewed by License Division Staff to determine initial eligibility. Applications accepted will be individually investigated to determine residency, moral character, and good cause. Applicants will be required to submit documentation to support and demonstrate their need.

They aren't handing them out like candy and per my brother, it was actually a pretty intense interview. My brother also took two 6 hour classes and shoots at least once a week. He isn't looking to shoot at any sign of trouble, he knows its a last resort but its a last resort he wants and should be able to be had.

 

I think the generalization of a licensed concealed weapon carrier is totally off base and pretty ridiculous and based in very little besides personal conjecture, feeling, and opinion.

Again, I think we should allow people to have firearms, but I think there needs to be a heavy background check each time you do it. There is no scenario where someone like Accord, who has probably 5 or more guns, would need a gun in less than 5 days. The only people who might need a gun without the waiting period are people who probably should not be getting guns. It isn't unconstitutional, it is a safety net to prevent bad things from happening.

In the "what if" situation that was given of 2 shooters and the ensuing confusion.......

 

Things like this can and have happened. It happened on a college campus within the last 2 or 3 years or so (a Florida campus). An off duty officer who was enforcing underage drinking got into a disturbance with a large group of students and drew his firearm.

 

Another off duty officer (a reserve officer I believe) saw the off duty cop do this and he shot and killed the officer (they worked for different agencies and Im sure several policy changes have been put in place since to better communication).

 

But the point is it can happen. FWIW, Reserve Officers have no business pulling their firearms out and shooting people unless they are 1000% sure what is going on.

 

With all that said, the possible confusion is a necessary evil and sometimes bad things will happen. In most cases, like Fox mentioned, it will be very clear who the maniac is and who the potential hero is in a shooting scenario. 95% of the people involved will have severe tunnel vision and experiencing severe "flight or fight" anyway so its not like everyone will be pulling out guns left and right.

 

Interesting example. As expected based on the issue, I find myself agreeing with penguino on this. These situations are, generally speaking, pure chaos. Let's say we are in the mall, I hear gunshots, and I grab a baseball bat, because you know, I'm a liberal(baby eater). Let's say I'm hiding behind something, and I see a guy walking out with a gun hiding and moving behind things and I have a clear ability to bash his brains in....why would I hesitate?

 

And I know accord is a marine, but come on. He sees a hippie looking person-who is to say he doesn't "accidently" take out the person he thinks is the bad guy. :shifty

In the "what if" situation that was given of 2 shooters and the ensuing confusion.......

 

Things like this can and have happened. It happened on a college campus within the last 2 or 3 years or so (a Florida campus). An off duty officer who was enforcing underage drinking got into a disturbance with a large group of students and drew his firearm.

 

Another off duty officer (a reserve officer I believe) saw the off duty cop do this and he shot and killed the officer (they worked for different agencies and Im sure several policy changes have been put in place since to better communication).

 

But the point is it can happen. FWIW, Reserve Officers have no business pulling their firearms out and shooting people unless they are 1000% sure what is going on.

 

With all that said, the possible confusion is a necessary evil and sometimes bad things will happen. In most cases, like Fox mentioned, it will be very clear who the maniac is and who the potential hero is in a shooting scenario. 95% of the people involved will have severe tunnel vision and experiencing severe "flight or fight" anyway so its not like everyone will be pulling out guns left and right.

 

Interesting example. As expected based on the issue, I find myself agreeing with penguino on this. These situations are, generally speaking, pure chaos. Let's say we are in the mall, I hear gunshots, and I grab a baseball bat, because you know, I'm a liberal(baby eater). Let's say I'm hiding behind something, and I see a guy walking out with a gun hiding and moving behind things and I have a clear ability to bash his brains in....why would I hesitate?

 

And I know accord is a marine, but come on. He sees a hippie looking person-who is to say he doesn't "accidently" take out the person he thinks is the bad guy. :shifty

Why would the shooter be discrete and hiding behind barriers?

 

Did you see the security photos from the Omaha shooting? He was walking around in wide open spaces, and taking zero precautions. Why? Maybe because he knew no one else was allowed to carry a gun on the mall property. Could be because he was a suicidal maniac (which in your scenario is usually going to be the case) or it could be because he was not worried about any other person in the mall shooting at him until the cops arrived and then he was going to do himself in anyways.

I never stated or implied that it is every American's right to bear arms. We own several guns and have concealed weapons permits. Does that mean I'm riding dirty? Packin in thr Wal-Mart? Because I fear some jack-ass is going to suddenly go off his rocker and I can spring to the charge and defend myself or my family? Like your family surrounds you at the Mall? You walk in herds??

 

And I love the intentional exclusion of schools by Fox.

I think everyone should have the right to carry a handgun, concealed, anywhere except a school if they are not an ex-con and can pass a simple psychiatric test.

Fox says. Are you mad because guns aren't allowed on airplanes? Because there's really a reason to protect your family at 50,000 feet.

 

What about schools? They're just as open to the public as Malls are- probably even worse. Kids are forced to attend school. No one forces people to go to the Mall. Usually spending money is gratifiying. And getting an "F" on your test is?

 

There is no one answer to the situation but if detectors can deter one gun from my local mall, I say, "Go for it"

'Intentional' exclusion? What does that mean? You think I'm trying to slight you somehow? I didn't even know you posted in this thread until now.

 

Maybe it is intentional because thats what I believe based on having my wife and mother teaching in public schools. Sorry it doesn't jive with you.