No, preventing future attacks on your homeland and trying to eliminate the threat of terrorism isn't considered being on offense.

okay so we are just defending ourselves in the middle east.

 

 

No...so what's your point?

 

so if everyone including law makers are critical of us in the middle east, why wouldn't they be critical of what israel is doing.

 

Stop trying to compare two completely different situations here. What Israel did was out of self-defense. What GWB did derived from stubborness. Did you forget that the reason why the U.S. went into the Middle East was to take control of the oil companies?

 

The United States isn't a small population that is surrounded by countries who are sending rockets into their land on a daily basis, wishing to harm it's people.

 

they send those "rockets", mortars, because Israel was preemptive.

 

You can say we are there for control of the oil, but it is obviously more than that also. That is a pretty shallow and partial ignorant stance to take on why we are there. We aren't in Afghanistan for Oil... and if we really were there 100% for oil we would be in other countries not Iraq. It had a lot more to do with influence in the area, since Israel has no respect and a hatred for Saddam because after we f**ked him over so many times he finally stopped playing games with us.

I find it amusing that the only people foaming at the mouth for defense of Israel here are clearly Jewish. It is clear that most people here in opposition to our support of Israel may not be Jewish but certainly are not being anti-Semitic. We just happen to believe in protecting our country and our people first and foremost. I would guess that many of our founders would consider our relationship with Israel to be borderline treasonous.

 

And I dont agree with the Goverment being run by Zionists. First, those people are Americans first and Jewish second.

 

Also, the PRESIDENT isn't Jewish

According to vice president elect Joseph Biden you don't need to be Jewish to be a Zionist.

 

And if you actually cared about "our people", then you would realize that by being an ally with Israel, Israel does all the dirty work FOR us . While the U.S. publicly supports Israel, I dont recall seeing any American troops in Israel during the past wars. Giving weapons is different. If Israel wasnt in that strategic area, who knows what would happen there. They're buying them from us.

 

The only way the U.S. is helping out is by being in Iraq. That blocks out the path from Iran to Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon where Hezzbolah is.

 

And I think that when you bash Israel(the Jewish nation) consistently about EVERYTHING, it is called being Anti Semitic. I dont want to get into that though.

 

Israel is not strategic for us, we gave them there land, we as in the western world, because we felt bad about holocaust and how western nations sent jews to both france and germany for genocide.

 

Strategic position would not be with one of the most hated countries, it would be with one who is beneficial. IE, Afghanistan during the Cold War.

I find it amusing that the only people foaming at the mouth for defense of Israel here are clearly Jewish. It is clear that most people here in opposition to our support of Israel may not be Jewish but certainly are not being anti-Semitic. We just happen to believe in protecting our country and our people first and foremost. I would guess that many of our founders would consider our relationship with Israel to be borderline treasonous.

 

And I dont agree with the Goverment being run by Zionists. First, those people are Americans first and Jewish second.

 

Also, the PRESIDENT isn't Jewish

According to vice president elect Joseph Biden you don't need to be Jewish to be a Zionist.

 

And if you actually cared about "our people", then you would realize that by being an ally with Israel, Israel does all the dirty work FOR us . While the U.S. publicly supports Israel, I dont recall seeing any American troops in Israel during the past wars. Giving weapons is different. If Israel wasnt in that strategic area, who knows what would happen there. They're buying them from us.

 

The only way the U.S. is helping out is by being in Iraq. That blocks out the path from Iran to Gaza, Syria, and Lebanon where Hezzbolah is.

 

And I think that when you bash Israel(the Jewish nation) consistently about EVERYTHING, it is called being Anti Semitic. I dont want to get into that though.

 

Israel does the dirty work for us? What dirty work is that? Does the US want war with all of these countries? Absolutely not. You cant talk out of your ass, Israel does not do any "dirty work" for the United States.

 

I cant believe you would try to argue the bold point. First off, Israel is the only country in the world that has received straight up CASH from the United States. Dont believe it? Go research it. Since when was it the United States responsibility to aid Israel or ANY of its allies in times of war? Can you name more than 1 war that the United States has actively been involved in (no, not as a peacemaker) to aid other countries in which the United States did not itself provoke? There are none, other than Kuwait. Face reality, nothing makes Israel more important than any other country and they do not deserve any US support whatsoever. It boggles my mind that you would go ahead and say this. Israel is not a colony or settlement of the United States, and we owe absolutely no allegiance to it.

 

I hate to break it to you, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with being antisemitic. Its purely political. It has nothing to do with Israel being Jewish. If it just so happens, which it does, that Israel is a nation of Jews, then it only makes a bad name for them, though I can guarantee you any bad name besmirched upon the Jews is developing because of the actions of Israel, and not the other way around.

Marching into Gaza City with ground troops and tanks isn't being on the offensive?

 

No, preventing future attacks on your homeland and trying to eliminate the threat of terrorism isn't considered being on offense.

 

That sounds very familiar, and has a name: it's called pre-emptive war...

I have not been trying to say that it is just neocons and Evangelicals. I am just saying that they had a lot more power recently than either group has ever had over politics.

 

I do believe that all sides are to blame for this, but I also don't have a real solution for this situation. AIPAC especially is so entrenched in our political system, and has conducted themselves legally, that I have no clue how we should slow down their power.

 

I am certainly open to any suggestions.

Well, we could all just do something crazy and refuse to vote for any candidate who will send US tax dollars to Israel and it's Arab enemies as well as interfering in the peace process and/or wars over there. Peace between the Israelis and Palestinians should be decided upon by the Israelis and the Palestinians, not us. Rather than of course just voting for those candidates and then making excuses for their support of Israel.

 

I doubt that these talks between Israel and the US were just based on comments by the Iranian President. You don't have the information, and I don't have the information on what intelligence both the US and Israel has. It is naive to make a judgment in the situation based on rumors and leaks. It is naive if you think Israel should just ignore these comments, while Iran keeps aiding terror groups like Hamas/Hez and continue to enrich their uranium.

Well, you are the one who said in response to a question of why Israel was pushing this "A country that has called for wiping out israel and it is developing nuclear technology." with no other reason, so I can only assume that you believe that this is sufficient cause to attack Iran and justify the inevitable loss of life on both sides. And yes, they should ignore those comments because they are meaningless. The Ayatollah & co have stayed in power because they are pragmatic rather than fanatics, and they know quite well that Israel could flatten Tehran & more if they ever dared attack Israel.

 

Iran actions have resulted in US and Israel casualties.

If you're going to pretend to respond to my comments, please don't ignore my questions. At least acknowledge that you either have no answer or say what the answer is and recognize that it is inconsistent with your argument. Who has Iran ever attacked? I would also argue that US actions have resulted in very large numbers of Iranian casualties during the reign of the Shah after the removal of Mossadeq, during which time the CIA-trained SAVAK was torturing and killing potential rivals. But Iran hasn't attacked us either now.

 

Israel having nuclear weapons does not pose an existential problem for the US or it's neighbors. They aren't the ones teaching pre-schoolers that Israelis are dogs and they must be annihilated.

No, but the Israelis do seem to be morally ok with the idea of responding to roughly 20 deaths in almost a decade (due to rocket fire from Gaza, which is the alleged catalyst for the current invasion) with a military campaign that (at last I heard a few days back) killed more than 700. But I'll digress from that point and simply point out that Iran poses no threat to the US whatsoever. EVEN IF they managed to develop a nuclear weapon they would be completely incapable of delivering it to any target, not even considering the likely consequences if they could. I mean there is a reason why even with all the nukes the USSR had, even 90 miles off our shores, we never had to go to war with them. There is a reason why both Pakistan & India, both armed with nuclear weapons, have not nuked eachother into the stone age.

 

Is this a joke? A nuclear weapon is a game changer. And Israel doesn't have the ability to fight Iran due to geography and current military technology ability.

I agree, it is a game changer. Countries that have nuclear weapons like Pakistan get more respect and more US dollars and they don't tend to get invaded much either. And if you could explain to me why, in the hypothetical event that Israel was attacked by Iran, why Israel would be incapable of flattening Tehran and most of the rest of Iran with it's 200+ nukes and vastly superior and more experienced military.

They understand how US politics works, and they are using their power to their benefit like any other super power does (including Russia, US, China, etc.). They have created a prosperous country in a matter of years that should be a model for others to follow. Some times I like what they do, and some times I don't. They aren't any worse or better than the US.

While I agree that at least AIPAC & such know how to get what they want, I don't honestly believe that it's what most Israelis want. But I'm not an expert on that. I do take issue with your characterization of them as prosperous though, because even if they are better off than all their neighbors I have difficulty categorizing a nation that is dependent on foreign aid as prosperous.

 

 

are we to ignore the number of rockets launched from Gaza? There is zero comparison, none. And they have never indicated a desire to invade Iran...There is no parallel here.

You can correct me if you have different numbers, but I believe the number of Israelis killed by rocket fire from Gaza since 2001 is something like 18, in comparison to the 700+ Palestinians who have been killed in the current conflict. And I think it's a pretty safe bet that more than 600 of those Palestinians never fired a rocket into Israel. I'm not saying they should ignore it, but I think they, after decades of this nonsense, should be able to come up with a better way to stop it, because we all know this isn't gonna do it.

 

And if you actually cared about "our people", then you would realize that by being an ally with Israel, Israel does all the dirty work FOR us . While the U.S. publicly supports Israel, I dont recall seeing any American troops in Israel during the past wars. Giving weapons is different. If Israel wasnt in that strategic area, who knows what would happen there. They're buying them from us.

Umm, they're "buying" those weapons from us with our own money. It's more a subsidy for weapons manufacturers and military aid to Israel. I would agree with your characterization of Israel as doing "dirty work".

 

As for what would happen if Israel wasn't there, I would imagine it would be a lot like it was before Israel was established, like the first roughly 170 years of American history during which the Arab world didn't hate the US and blame us for all their problems. I mean it might not occur to many of us young folks, but it wasn't always this way.

they send those "rockets", mortars, because Israel was preemptive.

 

You can say we are there for control of the oil, but it is obviously more than that also. That is a pretty shallow and partial ignorant stance to take on why we are there. We aren't in Afghanistan for Oil... and if we really were there 100% for oil we would be in other countries not Iraq. It had a lot more to do with influence in the area, since Israel has no respect and a hatred for Saddam because after we f**ked him over so many times he finally stopped playing games with us.

 

 

The main reason why we are in the Middle East is because of oil. That's a fact. A secondary reason was to protect the U.S. and our allies from terrorism. The point is, is that the U.S. is far from being in the same situation as Israel, which goes back to the original topic.

You can correct me if you have different numbers, but I believe the number of Israelis killed by rocket fire from Gaza since 2001 is something like 18, in comparison to the 700+ Palestinians who have been killed in the current conflict. And I think it's a pretty safe bet that more than 600 of those Palestinians never fired a rocket into Israel. I'm not saying they should ignore it, but I think they, after decades of this nonsense, should be able to come up with a better way to stop it, because we all know this isn't gonna do it.

 

 

Unless the 400+ women and children who have already died somehow were all terrorists conspiring against Israel...

 

Yeah, you heard right, roughly half of the deaths are women or children. And in that classification of "women and children" over 75% are children. That is the sad part.

I was trying to think of some way to respond to this 1938-like thread, but instead, I'll let my old friend Abe Foxman do it for me:

 

http://www.adl.org/Israel/mearsheimer_walt.asp

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/deadliest_lies/

 

EDIT: There's more. Someone on here made a weird claim about casualties. However, I would not trust that number. It's been done before with Jenin, and it's happening again. This link will tell you more:

 

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ODY1N...MDE=&w=MA==