Here's how it goes. Each side makes their opening argument. One side goes first. Once the other side goes, the first side may post again and defend his argument. You can only go again once the opposing side gets to speak. You've got 48 hours.

 

ONLY the competitors of this specific debate, the judges and myself may post in this thread.

 

At the end the judges will privately vote on a winner.

 

This debate ends 11:00 PM Eastern on 11/8.

 

Topic - Should the Marlins build their ballpark in Downtown Miami near the Miami Arena or in Little Havana near the Orange Bowl?

 

Miami Arena - miami15

 

Orange Bowl - alkazoid

 

Either side may begin.

A new stadium near Downtown Miami for the Florida Marlins is a necessity. City of Miami officials have hopped onto the Marlins? bandwagon so fast they are in great danger of making a huge mistake. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been raised in Miami, the poorest big city in the United States, and with many other places the money could be used, government officials are faced with an important task. As soon as the Marlins won the 2003 World Series, talk has elevated as city management has become desperate for a stadium. When I heard the proposal of a stadium built on the a site with a close proximity to the Orange Bowl I felt disgusted. Not only is the idea of a baseball stadium near Orange Bowl a ridiculous suggestion, there are several other sites that dwarf its potential. The most logical site is the Miami Arena. When the Miami Heat moved a few blocks from the Miami Arena to American Airlines Arena they left behind a perfectly good arena with its own MetroRail stop. The Miami Arena has since been used as a home for lesser quality performances such as the circus and the Source Hip Hop Awards, while its? cousin, American Airlines Arena, down the street has been home to NBA games and the Latin Grammy?s. Some would argue that the Miami Arena site is sub par because it is in one of the worst and poorest areas of town, Overtown. Overtown is a dingy area between Downtown and the Civic Center, its? streets clustered with the homeless and warehouses. When the Arenas were built parking has been added, though some would insist it is not enough to support a Major League Baseball attendance. As of late, many restoration projects have bloomed to clean up the neighborhood. A stadium would also be an asset in cleaning up the area. The Miami Arena site is also very easy to get to. A MetroRail stop is directly across the street from the Arena and many highways access it. The thousands of men and women working downtown can reach this site in minutes by taking the MetroMover, walking, or driving. The site is within a half mile of I-95 and can be accessed by State Road 836 easily as well.

Meanwhile, the idea of building a baseball stadium near the Orange Bowl is ludicrous. The Orange Bowl supports several University of Miami football games each fall, but the the area surrounding it could not handle 81 baseball games a year. The Orange Bowl has extremely limited parking, and the neighborhood surrounding it, Little Havana, rivals Overtown as one of the crappier areas in the Downtown Miami area. I would not be the least bit surprised to find out that the local Best Buy has more parking than this dump. On those autumn Saturdays when the Hurricanes play in the Orange Bowl, thousands of fans are either forced to park in people?s back yards, many with grass taller than David Samson, or walk from the Civic Center MetroRail station, more than a mile away. Parking in a backyard the size of a closet with several other cars, and walking a mile through a crummy neighborhood with thousands of other fans is bearable ? five or six times a year. The area near the Orange Bowl can not support 81 games a year. Fans would not be comfortable walking a mile by themselves from their parking spot or the MetroRail to the stadium, especially at night. Traffic is a nightmare in this neighborhood. I remember attending a Gold Cup soccer game this year at the Orange Bowl, the night Mike Mordicae hit the game winning home run in Atlanta, and even though only 40,000 people attended this game, traffic was backed up for miles on N.W. 7th St. Exiting SR 836 at the 17th Avenue exit is a pain, as is spending any time at this dump, the Orange Bowl. The point is, the idea of a stadium in Downtown Miami is much more logical.

The decision of where to build the Marlins' new ballpark is not an easy one. After much deliberation, the city commission managed to narrow the field of contenders down to two. Both the Orange Bowl area and the Miami Arena site are currently possible locations for the new home of the Miami Marlins. For the Orange Bowl location, county officials are looking to build a baseball stadium near the Orange Bowl football stadium. For the Miami Arena site, the county commission is looking to build a ballpark either: A) over the existing Miami Arena, or B) adjacent to the Miami Arena.

 

 

MASS TRANSIT ACCESSIBILITY

The Miami Arena location appears to be an early fan favorite--in Miami, at least. At first glance, I, too, thought it to be the superior location--until I did some research. Proponents of this site tout its accessibility by Metrorail; the station is essentially right across the street. While it is true that the Metrorail should help increase accessibility and, in turn, game attendance, it is debatable whether or not this site would be more accessible overall than the Orange Bowl location.

 

The Orange Bowl, unlike the Miami Arena, does not have a nearby Metrorail station. It is, however, very accessible by Metrobus, due to its proximity to Flagler St. and W 12th Ave. Some of the heaviest Metrobus routes in the county pass by the Orange Bowl. The Metrobus accessibility alone nearly compensates for the location's lack of having its own Metrorail station. When I was an undergraduate student at UM, I would frequently hop on the Metrorail and connect to the Metrobus to get to Hurricanes football games. This mode of transportation proved not only effective, but also economical. The Metrobus accessibility is also of great benefit to travelers from the north; the Metrobus connects to Tri-Rail trains and Broward county buses, and there is a Park & Ride lot just off of the Turnpike near I-95. Similarly, there are Park & Ride locations all over the county--in the south, the west, and the north--for those who would rather take the bus to games.

 

According to Miami-Dade Transit, Metrobus ridership for FY 2002 was 63,369,445, while Metrorail ridership was only 13,753,596. This shows how essential Metrobus access is for any new stadium, as opposed to having a Metrorail station. Most of the funds from the new half-penny tax will go toward expanding bus service. The bus fleet will be doubled by 2007, which, coincidentally, is when the Marlins are projected to begin playing in their new stadium. There has been some talk of Metrorail expansion, but since enactment of the new transportation program, Metrorail ridership has not increased, while Metrobus ridership has already grown 7%. Still, if Metrorail or Metromover service is expanded, a potential option would be to add rail service to Little Havana, thereby making the OB rail-accessible.

 

Because Metrobus is used so heavily, the Orange Bowl's proximity to Flagler and 12th Ave should allow it to attract a very large number of fans.

 

 

AUTOMOBILE ACCESSIBILITY

The Orange Bowl site is more easily accessible by car than the Miami Arena. Due to its western location relative to I-95, the OB is much closer to the majority of Miami-Dade County's populace. The drive is shorter for those coming from the south, the west via 836/826 or Flagler, and the north via the Turnpike or 12th Ave.

 

Though the Miami Arena appears geographically close to I-95, the commute is deceptively more complicated. The urban infrastructure prohibits the addition of another interstate exit, so, in order to drive to the site, one would have to either: A) take the Miami Ave or Biscayne exits from I-95 north, B) take the 14th or 17th St. exits from 836, or C) take the Brickell exit from US-1 south. The Arena is essentially inaccessible from the south via I-95. Thus, there is a negligible difference in the commute from the north/northeast, while the drives from the south, west, and northwest--where the majority of the population live--are notably shorter to the Orange Bowl site.

 

A ballpark in the Orange Bowl area would also dispel many fans' perceived fears of driving in downtown Miami. This alone would help attendance, particularly of fans from Broward and Palm Beach.

 

 

PARKING

Parking would be a serious problem for both locations.

 

According to county commissioners, a ballpark at the Miami Arena site would require many of the county-owned parking lots next to the Arena to be built upon. This would exacerbate an already nightmarish parking situation in the downtown area. Commuters would be forced to spend an additional arm-and-leg in order to drive to Marlins games, and they would be required to walk long distances between their parking spots and the stadium in an unsafe part of town.

 

Similarly, the Orange Bowl presents its own parking predicament. Currently, there is inadequate parking at the stadium parking lot to accommodate all the Orange Bowl fans. Construction of a new baseball-only stadium will likely require the county to seize much of the nearby residential property on county-owned land via eminent domain, thereby increasing the space available for parking. Thus, the new ballpark and the current Orange Bowl stadium could share parking, allowing an added "spillover" of parking spaces between the sites. Because Marlins games and Hurricanes football games would obviously not be scheduled to conflict, the added parking spillover between the stadiums would actually improve the parking situation at this location.

 

For a 38,000-seat ballpark, the parking advantage--however slight--goes to the Orange Bowl location.

 

 

SAFETY

As anyone who has ever been east of the I-95 overpass after sundown can attest, downtown is not a safe place to be during the nighttime. In fact, according to MSN House and Home, this location is among the most dangerous in the entire United States. For violent crime risk (encompassing murder, rape, assault, and robbery), the Miami Arena location recorded the highest possible score of 9--well above an "average" score of 3. For property crime risk (burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft), the area sports a slightly better score of 8 out of a possible 9 points (The "average" score is 3, again.). The mere perception of downtown Miami as unsafe will deter a large number of fans from around Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach, who already fear having to drive into downtown Miami.

 

The Orange Bowl location, in contrast, is right in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Residential neighborhoods have significantly lower crime rates than inner-city urban areas. Despite its relatively poor populace, Little Havana is significantly safer than inner-city Downtown Miami. If I were a parent, I would much rather take my wife and kids to the Orange Bowl than the Miami Arena to watch a Marlins game. Wouldn't you?

 

 

ATTENDANCE

Transportation-wise, the relative proximity of the Miami Arena to Metrorail should increase attendance by those who live near the Metrorail line. Similarly, the Orange Bowl is very conveniently located along several major Metrobus thoroughfares, which serve the county's major population areas in the north, west, and south. Additionally, the Metrobus lines connect to a number of Metrorail stations, making the trip all the easier. The Metrobus carries five times as many passengers as the Metrorail, and thus it should be the ideal mode of mass transit serving the potential new ballpark site.

 

Similarly, the relative ease of driving to the Orange Bowl and the much safer location should help attendance significantly.

 

The biggest, most clear-cut attendance advantage goes to the Orange Bowl site for its local population. Situated in the heart of Little Havana, the new ballpark would be within walking distance of a huge, predominantly Cuban populace. Note that the vast majority of the 100,000-plus who turned out for the Marlins' midday victory parades in Miami-Dade County were at the Calle Ocho event. Anyone who watched the television coverage can attest to the madness of the situation in Little Havana; there is no doubt that the Marlins are immensely popular in this locale. The enormous interest in baseball by Hispanics is one of the main reasons why the Marlins ownership group called Miami a potential "gold mine" for a baseball franchise after purchasing the team.

 

Why not capitalize on this huge potential fan base? Chicago's Wrigley Field is proof of the advantage in having a ballpark situated in a neighborhood; there will always remain a large attendance pool, regardless of how well the team performs. The enormous Cuban population in Little Havana should do wonders, attendance-wise, for a franchise that has always had difficulty with attracting fans. Furthermore, Little Havana has one of the youngest populations in South Florida. This effectively increases the area's game-attending fan base. The Miami Arena, in contrast, has no such local population to depend on. The attendance advantage, thus, clearly goes to the Orange Bowl.

 

If the Marlins played in your neighborhood, wouldn't you go to games?

 

 

MONEY

If all other arguments in deciding where to build the Marlins' new stadium were to result in deadlock, this would be the tiebreaker. Economics--essentially the most important deciding factor in any business decision--favors the Orange Bowl site handily.

 

Because the city owns all of the land surrounding the Orange Bowl site, more land would not have to be purchased to build a baseball stadium. In the Miami Arena location, however, the city only owns the Arena lot and adjacent parking lots. Thus, building a ballpark next to the Arena would require the purchase of more property.

 

The cost to build next to the Orange Bowl is relatively cheap. Because the city owns the land, it can easily replace some residential lots with the stadium at low cost. Construction at the Miami Arena, however, would be far more expensive. Because much of the vacant land surrounding the Arena is divided by railway tracks and sits near a telecommunications switching station, construction costs for a baseball stadium would be astronomical. The complicated and expensive construction procedure makes the possibility of a downtown ballpark very slim. The relatively modest-sized Miami Arena, which was built in 1988, still has $36 million in outstanding construction debt.

 

In the end, this argument eventually boils down to money. The cheaper construction costs and superior attendance draws of the Orange Bowl site make it the clear-cut winner.

WOW! :blink:

Question for each of you:

 

For miami15: How could the homeless be cleaned up when a judge ordered that Metro cannot move them?

 

For Alkazoid: To clarify, the land that will be taken per eminent domain is currently owned by the city and/or county, but how do people live there? Is it public housing, leasing, etc.? How much would it cost if possible to know right now?

It is, however, very accessible by Metrobus, due to its proximity to Flagler St. and W 12th Ave

Sure. Everybody takes 12th Ave to the games. Lots of fans down there. Honestly, 12th Avenue isn't where a lot of the fans are.

 

MetroBus is not by any means easier to use than MetroRail. The statistics are meaning less. MetroBus is available throughout the county, while the MetroRail is available in only the central location. I don't see many fans hopping on a bus to go to a game. If you're scared to drive Downtown, you're scared to take the bus!

 

Still, if Metrorail or Metromover service is expanded, a potential option would be to add rail service to Little Havana, thereby making the OB rail-accessible.

 

$$$! That cancels out your theory on the Orange Bowl site being less expensive than the Miami Arena. The last thing the City needs is another transit project. The Miami Arena site needs no changes whatsoever in this category.

 

The Orange Bowl site is more easily accessible by car than the Miami Arena. Due to its western location relative to I-95, the OB is much closer to the majority of Miami-Dade County's populace. The drive is shorter for those coming from the south, the west via 836/826 or Flagler, and the north via the Turnpike or 12th Ave.

 

Stop using stats. Sure, it is shorter from these highways to the OB, but that is in distance, not time through traffic. Have you ever seen the madness leaving 836? What about the traffic nightmare in Little Havana.

 

Though the Miami Arena appears geographically close to I-95, the commute is deceptively more complicated. The urban infrastructure prohibits the addition of another interstate exit, so, in order to drive to the site, one would have to either: A) take the Miami Ave or Biscayne exits from I-95 north, B) take the 14th or 17th St. exits from 836, or C) take the Brickell exit from US-1 south. The Arena is essentially inaccessible from the south via I-95. Thus, there is a negligible difference in the commute from the north/northeast, while the drives from the south, west, and northwest--where the majority of the population live--are notably shorter to the Orange Bowl site.

 

An advantage to the Miami Arena site, is that many people working downtown (and a lot of these people have the money to go to baseball games) don't have to worry about this exiting crap as they already are in Downtown. Meanwhile, businessmen heading to games in the Orange Bowl must drive from I-95 to 836 and exit through that nightmare, which is no easier than going to the Miami Arena. The Downtown area can handle thousands of people in the area without a major traffic jam, yet when East Carolina plays in the Orange Bowl, and 45,000 fans show up, a hell of a traffic jam occurs.

 

A ballpark in the Orange Bowl area would also dispel many fans' perceived fears of driving in downtown Miami. This alone would help attendance, particularly of fans from Broward and Palm Beach.

 

I really don't see how driving in Downtown is worse than driving in Little Havana. Leaving a Heat game at either arena was always very easy with I-95 and 836/395 just minutes away. Meanwhile at the Orange Bowl one must either wait in madness to get on 836 (which is the only highway nearby) or drive through the 3rd World Country Roads of Little Havana.

 

Construction of a new baseball-only stadium will likely require the county to seize much of the nearby residential property on county-owned land via eminent domain, thereby increasing the space available for parking.

Sounds fun!

 

But that is destroying the only parking near the Orange Bowl (people's backyards).

 

For a 38,000-seat ballpark, the parking advantage--however slight--goes to the Orange Bowl location.

 

No! The Orange Bowl currently has no parking whatsoever, and your plan to destroy homes won't help in the $$ category. Meanwhile, the Downtown/Overtown area has been able to put up respectable parking, at least compared to the Orange Bowl.

In fact, as the Miami Heat have drawn around 18,000 people to some games ( good attendance figure to compare for Marlins' crowds - what you think more than 23,000 people are going to constantly show up) and have managed with parking. To describe an average parking dillemma: A few years back the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe were in town. A sellout crowd came out to American Airlines Arena. We left my home in Coral Gables; got to the arena; figured we left our tickets at home; drove home; got the tickets; and drove from 42nd Ave to 836 to AAA in about 9 minutes. A traffic nightmare? Not quite.

Traffic won't be near the problem it is in the Orange Bowl as many people will either take the MetroRail or the MetroMover, leaving their cars at their original MetroRail station or their offices Downtown. The parking situation is much better Downtown than it is in Little Havana.

 

 

As anyone who has ever been east of the I-95 overpass after sundown can attest, downtown is not a safe place to be during the nighttime.

. . . and Little Havana is Jolly Olly Land!

 

In fact, according to MSN House and Home, this location is among the most dangerous in the entire United States.

Keyword: among! You know what? This survey probably includes Little Havana in the Downtown area as it is only a mile or two away.

 

 

If I were a parent, I would much rather take my wife and kids to the Orange Bowl than the Miami Arena to watch a Marlins game. Wouldn't you?

 

Yeah, because instead of parking in a lot and walking two or three blocks to the Arena, than getting home in minutes, I would rather park in my amigo Jose's backyard, which by the way is like a junkyard, than come to the lot after the game to see it has been blocked in, and than drive through a traffic mess. Not me! The neighborhood looked especially safe during the Elian Gonzalez "crisis". Did you see how comforting the residents of the area were to each other and public property. They looked like safe people.

Walking a block from the MetroRail station to the Miami Arena is safe. Walking a mile by yourself (remember, these are Marlins' games were talking about) through Little Havana at night? Knock yourself out!

Did I mention there always is a greater police present in the Downtown area than in Little Havana? Urban area > residential area.

Similarly, the Orange Bowl is very conveniently located along several major Metrobus thoroughfares, which serve the county's major population areas in the north, west, and south.

Nobody takes the bus to baseball games. There is something called traffic and the MetroRail is much easier and quicker. By the way, the MetroRail stops at the Miami Arena.

 

The Metrobus carries five times as many passengers as the Metrorail, and thus it should be the ideal mode of mass transit serving the potential new ballpark site.

But in the inner city, taking the MetroRail is much easier. MUCH!

 

the relative ease of driving to the Orange Bowl

Did you just say what I think you said? Go to the Tennessee game tommorow, and have fun driving with ease!

 

The biggest, most clear-cut attendance advantage goes to the Orange Bowl site for its local population. Situated in the heart of Little Havana, the new ballpark would be within walking distance of a huge, predominantly Cuban populace.

You're telling me you'd rather have to rely on people living in poverty going to games at the OB site than businessmen working nearby the Miami Arena?

 

Note that the vast majority of the 100,000-plus who turned out for the Marlins' midday victory parades in Miami-Dade County were at the Calle Ocho event. Anyone who watched the television coverage can attest to the madness of the situation in Little Havana; there is no doubt that the Marlins are immensely popular in this locale. The enormous interest in baseball by Hispanics is one of the main reasons why the Marlins ownership group called Miami a potential "gold mine" for a baseball franchise after purchasing the team.

 

Sorry, but my cat could afford that parade. I wouldn't count on these people, who are the ones that make your bus stats look so good because they don't have cars, buying 25$ tickets, not to mention food and souveniers. Sure the Marlins are popular in this area, but the Miami Arena is just blocks to the East. They can hop on the bus to get there.

The point is, a much safer, more reliable group of people to count on going to games are the wealthy businessmen working Downtown, who do not need to drive to the Miami Arena, than the "loyal" fans in Little Havana, who are more concerned with trying to make enough money to escape poverty than spending money at a game. They certainly don't need to spend money. And I can guarentee you tickets would be much more expensive in a new stadium.

 

 

Chicago's Wrigley Field is proof of the advantage in having a ballpark situated in a neighborhood

Have you ever been to that neighborhood. It doesn't compare with Little Havana. It is more wealthy, and full of drunks who have been Cubs' fans for life: not since the team won the World Series like Little Havana's fans.

 

The enormous Cuban population in Little Havana should do wonders, attendance-wise, for a franchise that has always had difficulty with attracting fans.

Once again, have fun counting on really poor people as your primary ticket buyers. More likely than not, they'll own the parking lots rather than the tickets.

 

The Miami Arena, in contrast, has no such local population to depend on.

That is where businessmen from Downtown come into the picture.

 

If the Marlins played in your neighborhood, wouldn't you go to games?

If I could afford it, Hell yeah!

 

In the end, this argument eventually boils down to money. The cheaper construction costs and superior attendance draws of the Orange Bowl site make it the clear-cut winner.

If you want to add on MetroRail to the OB, and essentially "buy out" the surrounding areas, you end up spending money. The Miami Arena has enough parking for your average Marlins' crowd. The Orange Bowl doens't have enough parking for your average church service.

And if the team is willing to dish out $350 million precious dollars for a stadium, $20 million more for a better location to get it right won't hurt.

 

Good night!

Could I have a direct link to the story with the crime index?

I will briefly respond to the points you've raised, while raising a few of my own:

 

It is, however, very accessible by Metrobus, due to its proximity to Flagler St. and W 12th Ave

Sure. Everybody takes 12th Ave to the games. Lots of fans down there. Honestly, 12th Avenue isn't where a lot of the fans are.

I was referring to the stadium's central location relative to major bus routes passing through Flagler St. and 12th Ave. This makes it very easy to access via mass transit.

 

MetroBus is not by any means easier to use than MetroRail. The statistics are meaning less. MetroBus is available throughout the county, while the MetroRail is available in only the central location.

My point exactly. And where do the majority of the residents of Miami-Dade county reside? And where are they during evenings and weekends?

 

I don't see many fans hopping on a bus to go to a game. If you're scared to drive Downtown, you're scared to take the bus!

The buses are used HEAVILY for Hurricanes football games at the Orange Bowl. Stand outside the gate and look for yourself. And I think we can both agree that most people who ride the bus do so because it is more convenient to them. If I didn't have a car and a bus stop was right down the street from me, I'd ride the bus.

 

Still, if Metrorail or Metromover service is expanded, a potential option would be to add rail service to Little Havana, thereby making the OB rail-accessible.

$$$! That cancels out your theory on the Orange Bowl site being less expensive than the Miami Arena. The last thing the City needs is another transit project. The Miami Arena site needs no changes whatsoever in this category.

Not quite; you missed my point completely. According to City Commissioner Joe Sanchez, the county is already planning to expand the Metrorail line to Miami International Airport, and so the Little Havana stop should decrease traffic significantly. Proceeds from the half-cent tax will expand the Metrorail westward, regardless of where the stadium is built. That being said, for a stadium that won't be ready until 2007, near which Metrorail stop would you rather build it? Note that it would cost SIGNIFICANTLY more to build a ballpark near the Miami Arena.

 

The Orange Bowl site is more easily accessible by car than the Miami Arena. Due to its western location relative to I-95, the OB is much closer to the majority of Miami-Dade County's populace. The drive is shorter for those coming from the south, the west via 836/826 or Flagler, and the north via the Turnpike or 12th Ave.

Stop using stats. Sure, it is shorter from these highways to the OB, but that is in distance, not time through traffic. Have you ever seen the madness leaving 836? What about the traffic nightmare in Little Havana.

Though the Miami Arena appears geographically close to I-95, the commute is deceptively more complicated. The urban infrastructure prohibits the addition of another interstate exit, so, in order to drive to the site, one would have to either: A) take the Miami Ave or Biscayne exits from I-95 north, B) take the 14th or 17th St. exits from 836, or C) take the Brickell exit from US-1 south. The Arena is essentially inaccessible from the south via I-95. Thus, there is a negligible difference in the commute from the north/northeast, while the drives from the south, west, and northwest--where the majority of the population live--are notably shorter to the Orange Bowl site.

An advantage to the Miami Arena site, is that many people working downtown (and a lot of these people have the money to go to baseball games) don't have to worry about this exiting crap as they already are in Downtown. Meanwhile, businessmen heading to games in the Orange Bowl must drive from I-95 to 836 and exit through that nightmare, which is no easier than going to the Miami Arena. The Downtown area can handle thousands of people in the area without a major traffic jam, yet when East Carolina plays in the Orange Bowl, and 45,000 fans show up, a hell of a traffic jam occurs.

You've raised a number of points regarding traffic, but you're completely forgetting where the Miami Arena is located. I've been stuck in terrible traffic outside the AAA over something as little as a concert. You're forgetting that Brickell has only ONE northbound outlet to I-95. On which part of that bridge (or the Miami Ave. one) would you like to be stuck in traffic? Let's face it, traffic would be a problem equally in both areas, but you're not comparing apples with apples here (40,000 football game vs. 18,000 basketball game?). At least the OB's central location relative to Flagler and 12th gives drivers more options. Once the Metrorail's westward expansion is completed, the OB would have a definite advantage.

 

A ballpark in the Orange Bowl area would also dispel many fans' perceived fears of driving in downtown Miami. This alone would help attendance, particularly of fans from Broward and Palm Beach.

I really don't see how driving in Downtown is worse than driving in Little Havana. Leaving a Heat game at either arena was always very easy with I-95 and 836/395 just minutes away. Meanwhile at the Orange Bowl one must either wait in madness to get on 836 (which is the only highway nearby) or drive through the 3rd World Country Roads of Little Havana.

I'll give you a personal example. My parents, who live in Palm Beach County, DREAD having to drive in downtown Miami. My father refuses to do it. If you look at a number of posts and newspaper articles on this site, you will see that a large number of Broward/Palm Beach people fear it. Downtown is complicated; I, too, feared it for about a year or two when I first moved down here.

 

Construction of a new baseball-only stadium will likely require the county to seize much of the nearby residential property on county-owned land via eminent domain, thereby increasing the space available for parking.

Sounds fun!

 

But that is destroying the only parking near the Orange Bowl (people's backyards).

Houses will be removed and in their place will be a stadium with parking. Explain how that "destroys" parking. You're also forgetting that the perimeter would then be larger, allowing more neighboring backyards to park in, if you so choose.

 

For a 38,000-seat ballpark, the parking advantage--however slight--goes to the Orange Bowl location.

No! The Orange Bowl currently has no parking whatsoever, and your plan to destroy homes won't help in the $$ category. Meanwhile, the Downtown/Overtown area has been able to put up respectable parking, at least compared to the Orange Bowl.

You're completely forgetting that in order to build a ballpark near the Miami Arena, a large number of the municipally-held PARKING LOTS would have to sacrificed. That is why parking will become even more of a nightmare downtown. You cannot dispute that having two stadium parking lots in the Orange Bowl Area would help the parking situation there.

 

Traffic won't be near the problem it is in the Orange Bowl as many people will either take the MetroRail or the MetroMover, leaving their cars at their original MetroRail station or their offices Downtown.

What world are you living in? The parking at the Metro stations is minimal. And if you think I'm going to drive to some out-of-the-way corner of the inner city to park next to some Metromover station... think again.

 

As anyone who has ever been east of the I-95 overpass after sundown can attest, downtown is not a safe place to be during the nighttime.

. . . and Little Havana is Jolly Olly Land!

 

In fact, according to MSN House and Home, this location is among the most dangerous in the entire United States.

Keyword: among! You know what? This survey probably includes Little Havana in the Downtown area as it is only a mile or two away.

 

If I were a parent, I would much rather take my wife and kids to the Orange Bowl than the Miami Arena to watch a Marlins game. Wouldn't you?

Yeah, because instead of parking in a lot and walking two or three blocks to the Arena, than getting home in minutes, I would rather park in my amigo Jose's backyard, which by the way is like a junkyard, than come to the lot after the game to see it has been blocked in, and than drive through a traffic mess. Not me! The neighborhood looked especially safe during the Elian Gonzalez "crisis". Did you see how comforting the residents of the area were to each other and public property. They looked like safe people.

Walking a block from the MetroRail station to the Miami Arena is safe. Walking a mile by yourself (remember, these are Marlins' games were talking about) through Little Havana at night? Knock yourself out!

Did I mention there always is a greater police present in the Downtown area than in Little Havana? Urban area > residential area.

Show some credibility here. You're essentially disputing every point, regardless of how obvious they are. NO ONE can argue that inner-city downtown Miami is safer than Little Havana. The argument that "more cops = safer" is laughable. Tell that to South Central Los Angeles. Just because the residents of Little Havana are, for the most part, low-to-middle class doesn't mean that they'll come clamoring out of their HOUSES to commit crimes during Marlins games. It is a RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD, NOT AN INNER-CITY GHETTO; your offensive comments aside, I think it's pretty obvious which location is safer.

 

the relative ease of driving to the Orange Bowl

Did you just say what I think you said? Go to the Tennessee game tommorow, and have fun driving with ease!

Let's forget the fact that you pulled that quote entirely out of context. The word relative indicates that one drive is easy in comparison to another. You cannot dispute the fact that downtown Miami is a bit complicated.

 

The biggest, most clear-cut attendance advantage goes to the Orange Bowl site for its local population. Situated in the heart of Little Havana, the new ballpark would be within walking distance of a huge, predominantly Cuban populace.

You're telling me you'd rather have to rely on people living in poverty going to games at the OB site than businessmen working nearby the Miami Arena?

 

Note that the vast majority of the 100,000-plus who turned out for the Marlins' midday victory parades in Miami-Dade County were at the Calle Ocho event. Anyone who watched the television coverage can attest to the madness of the situation in Little Havana; there is no doubt that the Marlins are immensely popular in this locale. The enormous interest in baseball by Hispanics is one of the main reasons why the Marlins ownership group called Miami a potential "gold mine" for a baseball franchise after purchasing the team.

 

Sorry, but my cat could afford that parade. I wouldn't count on these people, who are the ones that make your bus stats look so good because they don't have cars, buying 25$ tickets, not to mention food and souveniers. Sure the Marlins are popular in this area, but the Miami Arena is just blocks to the East. They can hop on the bus to get there.

The point is, a much safer, more reliable group of people to count on going to games are the wealthy businessmen working Downtown, who do not need to drive to the Miami Arena, than the "loyal" fans in Little Havana, who are more concerned with trying to make enough money to escape poverty than spending money at a game. They certainly don't need to spend money. And I can guarentee you tickets would be much more expensive in a new stadium.

 

Chicago's Wrigley Field is proof of the advantage in having a ballpark situated in a neighborhood

Have you ever been to that neighborhood. It doesn't compare with Little Havana. It is more wealthy, and full of drunks who have been Cubs' fans for life: not since the team won the World Series like Little Havana's fans.

 

The enormous Cuban population in Little Havana should do wonders, attendance-wise, for a franchise that has always had difficulty with attracting fans.

Once again, have fun counting on really poor people as your primary ticket buyers. More likely than not, they'll own the parking lots rather than the tickets.

 

The Miami Arena, in contrast, has no such local population to depend on.

That is where businessmen from Downtown come into the picture.

 

If the Marlins played in your neighborhood, wouldn't you go to games?

If I could afford it, Hell yeah!

Essentially your point here is that "businessmen from Downtown" are going to sit around two hours after work to attend Marlins games in downtown Miami after having spent an entire day WORKING there. And you believe this theoretical "businessman" fanbase is more reliable than AN ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL POPULATION THAT LIVES NEXT TO THE STADIUM. Again, you're disputing points that are rather obvious.

 

You make it sound like everyone in Little Havana lives in abject poverty and receives welfare checks. The neighborhood has low-income residents and middle-class residents, but it's NOTHING like the housing project you paint it to be. You don't think a baseball fan can afford a $4 ticket? Even if the cheapest ticket were $15, it would be very affordable. Remember, these people LIVE there, so they don't have to dish out for parking. Oh, and I attended the Calle Ocho parade. Believe me, those caps and shirts that people were wearing cost much more than $4.

 

In the end, this argument eventually boils down to money. The cheaper construction costs and superior attendance draws of the Orange Bowl site make it the clear-cut winner.

If you want to add on MetroRail to the OB, and essentially "buy out" the surrounding areas, you end up spending money. The Miami Arena has enough parking for your average Marlins' crowd. The Orange Bowl doens't have enough parking for your average church service.

And if the team is willing to dish out $350 million precious dollars for a stadium, $20 million more for a better location to get it right won't hurt.

Because of the half-penny tax, Metrorail will be expanded westward, regardless of where the stadium is built. It would take some fuzzy reasoning to tack that onto the price tag of a stadium.

 

You're skirting the fact that construction at the Miami Arena location would be substantially more because of the nearby railway tracks and telecommunications station. I'm curious where you got your $20 million figure from, can you provide a link?

 

For Capefish: Because the city owns the land surrounding the Orange Bowl, a buyout and subsequent construction would be relatively cheap. There are no obstacles to construction, unlike downtown. Also, to build a ballpark downtown, additional property would have to be purchased and construction would be much stickier. I don't know the dollar-amount for how much it would cost to build on the Orange Bowl site, but if you type ""orange bowl" marlins" into Google news, there are dozens of articles attesting to the relative cheapness of that site. Here's one.

 

A few more points:

 

The thousands of men and women working downtown can reach this site in minutes by taking the MetroMover, walking, or driving.

Do you honestly think the businesspeople who work downtown would be a more reliable fanbase than those who LIVE in Little Havana? You're forgetting that people get off of work at 5:00; what are they going to do for two hours before game time? Downtown shuts down after the sun goes down. You can't even get a chicken sandwich at night. Let's face it, the Marlins play baseball during WEEKNIGHTS and WEEKENDS. This does not bode well for a potential "businessman" fanbase.

 

Little Havana, rivals Overtown as one of the crappier areas in the Downtown Miami area. I would not be the least bit surprised to find out that the local Best Buy has more parking than this dump.

Little Havana does not compare to Overtown. Little Havana is a residential neighborhood, while Overtown is an inner-city ghetto. Have you ever been out during the nighttime in Overtown? You'd notice that the streets become completely EMPTY after the sun goes down. I'd say that is a good indicator of how safe the place is.

 

Two more questions for miami15:

1) What will happen to downtown parking after a stadium is built over the municipally-held parking lots?

2) How would you justify spending more on building a stadium near Miami Arena? Do you believe there will be a greater return on that investment?

My point exactly. And where do the majority of the residents of Miami-Dade county reside? And where are they during evenings and weekends?

Who is taking city buses from the far reaches of Dade County to the Orange Bowl in rush hour traffic?

 

 

Not quite; you missed my point completely. According to City Commissioner Joe Sanchez, the county is already planning to expand the Metrorail line to Miami International Airport, and so the Little Havana stop should decrease traffic significantly. Proceeds from the half-cent tax will expand the Metrorail westward, regardless of where the stadium is built. That being said, for a stadium that won't be ready until 2007, near which Metrorail stop would you rather build it? Note that it would cost SIGNIFICANTLY more to build a ballpark near the Miami Arena

Jeff Conine will be Jack McKeon's age by the time that thing is complete.

 

 

 

What world are you living in? The parking at the Metro stations is minimal. And if you think I'm going to drive to some out-of-the-way corner of the inner city to park next to some Metromover station... think again.

People living in Downtown don't really have to move their cars from the garage to the MetroMover parking lots. And do you honestly think that the parking lots at the MetroRail stations are going to be full with fans going to games?

 

At least the OB's central location relative to Flagler and 12th gives drivers more options.

The area around the Orange Bowl congests very easily. Not to many people are going to be relying on Flagler and 12th, them being the express roads that they are, to get home.

 

Once the Metrorail's westward expansion is completed, the OB would have a definite advantage.

Nope! In like 2015, when the MetroRail's expansion would be complete would equal the Downtown access. Why would it make it better?

 

Downtown is complicated

And so is Little Havana. All those dead ends and traffic backups. Overtown traffic moves quickly onto the major highways that serve it (836, 395, I95). Little Havana traffic moves slow - to get on garbage roads like Flagler, 12th and 836.

 

You don't think a baseball fan can afford a $4 ticket? Even if the cheapest ticket were $15, it would be very affordable.

 

Yeah, once or twice a month for 15$ sounds reasonable.

 

Oh, and I attended the Calle Ocho parade. Believe me, those caps and shirts that people were wearing cost much more than $4.

Yeah, you buy one 11$ shirt a year. They can afford that, but 6 or 7 15$ tickets a month??? Per person!

These aren't going to be fish tank prices at the new stadium.

Affordability will likely be a problem, which brings up the problem of relying on a poor population to be your biggest customers. Sure, they're baseball fans - when we win, and they can always watch TV.

 

Essentially your point here is that "businessmen from Downtown" are going to sit around two hours after work to attend Marlins games in downtown Miami after having spent an entire day WORKING there. And you believe this theoretical "businessman" fanbase is more reliable than AN ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL POPULATION THAT LIVES NEXT TO THE STADIUM. Again, you're disputing points that are rather obvious.

Yeah, I trust wealthy business from Downtown buying season tickets, and businessman going to several games since they are close to the stadium more than a financially stuggling community. What's wrong with that?

 

 

Do you honestly think the businesspeople who work downtown would be a more reliable fanbase than those who LIVE in Little Havana? You're forgetting that people get off of work at 5:00; what are they going to do for two hours before game time?

People get off work at 5:00? Yeah, at your local Fast Food joint. Some people have the option of sticking around and logging some hours before heading to the ballpark. Not every occupation forces people to get the hell out at 5 PM!

 

Downtown shuts down after the sun goes down. You can't even get a chicken sandwich at night. Let's face it, the Marlins play baseball during WEEKNIGHTS and WEEKENDS. This does not bode well for a potential "businessman" fanbase.

 

Well do you expect it to suit businessmen baseball fans better if the games started during their lunch?

Downtown shuts down after night, because there is no reason to be there anymore. With thousands of people sticking around for a Marlins' game, that problem does not exist.

But then again is Little Havana really bustling with people after dark?

 

 

Show some credibility here. You're essentially disputing every point, regardless of how obvious they are. NO ONE can argue that inner-city downtown Miami is safer than Little Havana. The argument that "more cops = safer" is laughable. Tell that to South Central Los Angeles. Just because the residents of Little Havana are, for the most part, low-to-middle class doesn't mean that they'll come clamoring out of their HOUSES to commit crimes during Marlins games. It is a RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD, NOT AN INNER-CITY GHETTO; your offensive comments aside, I think it's pretty obvious which location is safer.

 

The thing is, to attend a baseball game in Little Havana, you must park in someone's backyard and walk a few blocks, or take the MetroRail and walk a mile. But to go to a game in Overtown you have to walk across the street from the MetroRail station OR park in a lot( not someone's backyard) in which you can see the stadium from.

 

What will happen to downtown parking after a stadium is built over the municipally-held parking lots?

Don't even compare the parking in Downtown to that of the Orange Bowl. Not everybody going to games in Downtown must drive and park because of the simplicity of the MetroRail and parking garages for offices Downtown, but the parking near the Orange Bowl is absent. To aquire SOME parking downtown the destruction of hundreds of homes and business must occur.

 

How would you justify spending more on building a stadium near Miami Arena? Do you believe there will be a greater return on that investment?

Because, if you are going to spend that much precious money on a stadium, might as well get it right. The Orange Bowl site is a disaster waiting to happen. Where is the land for the stadium? Will the Orange Bowl must first be destroyed? Where will parking be? How many homes must be demolished? When can the construction begin? Will Downtown businessmen put up with driving from their offices to the Orange Bowl in 836 traffic?

 

No doubt about - the Miami Arena is the clear winner!

Who is taking city buses from the far reaches of Dade County to the Orange Bowl in rush hour traffic?

And how many businessmen leave their cars parked at the station, then sit around for two hours after work to go to a baseball game?

 

Not quite; you missed my point completely. According to City Commissioner Joe Sanchez, the county is already planning to expand the Metrorail line to Miami International Airport, and so the Little Havana stop should decrease traffic significantly. Proceeds from the half-cent tax will expand the Metrorail westward, regardless of where the stadium is built. That being said, for a stadium that won't be ready until 2007, near which Metrorail stop would you rather build it? Note that it would cost SIGNIFICANTLY more to build a ballpark near the Miami Arena

Jeff Conine will be Jack McKeon's age by the time that thing is complete.

 

Once the Metrorail's westward expansion is completed, the OB would have a definite advantage.

Nope! In like 2015, when the MetroRail's expansion would be complete would equal the Downtown access. Why would it make it better?

Again, I'm curious where you came up with the year 2015. The entire 21-mile Metrorail system didn't take half that long to build! Keep in mind that the ballpark won't be ready until 2007. Even if the Metrorail extension takes that long to build, do you honestly believe it's smarter, fiscally, to think short-term and invest in a more expensive construction project in Overtown, knowing that there is no guarantee of attendance there like there is in Little Havana? What is your solution when attendance again dips to 10,000 per game? Scrap the thing and build a new ballpark in a residential area?

 

What world are you living in? The parking at the Metro stations is minimal. And if you think I'm going to drive to some out-of-the-way corner of the inner city to park next to some Metromover station... think again.

People living in Downtown don't really have to move their cars from the garage to the MetroMover parking lots. And do you honestly think that the parking lots at the MetroRail stations are going to be full with fans going to games?

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I suggested peopled would be moving their cars from garages to metromover parking lots. I was responding to your theory that Metromover parking lots would be the cure to downtown's parking predicament after the municipal lots would be eaten by ballpark construction. I, personally, wouldn't feel comfortable having to drive over and park my car in some corner of the inner city, then leaving it there for the duration of a ballgame.

 

At least the OB's central location relative to Flagler and 12th gives drivers more options.

The area around the Orange Bowl congests very easily. Not to many people are going to be relying on Flagler and 12th, them being the express roads that they are, to get home.

Downtown is complicated

And so is Little Havana. All those dead ends and traffic backups. Overtown traffic moves quickly onto the major highways that serve it (836, 395, I95). Little Havana traffic moves slow - to get on garbage roads like Flagler, 12th and 836.

Again, you continue to compare apples to oranges. A football game with 40,000 in attendance does not compare to a basketball game with 18,000 in attendance. How could you compare the traffic?

 

You don't think a baseball fan can afford a $4 ticket? Even if the cheapest ticket were $15, it would be very affordable.

Yeah, once or twice a month for 15$ sounds reasonable.

 

Oh, and I attended the Calle Ocho parade. Believe me, those caps and shirts that people were wearing cost much more than $4.

Yeah, you buy one 11$ shirt a year. They can afford that, but 6 or 7 15$ tickets a month??? Per person!

These aren't going to be fish tank prices at the new stadium.

Affordability will likely be a problem, which brings up the problem of relying on a poor population to be your biggest customers. Sure, they're baseball fans - when we win, and they can always watch TV.

Again, you haven't responded to my point that NOT EVERYONE IN LITTLE HAVANA IS ON WELFARE. You're making it sound like these are the poorest people in the city. I don't care how poor someone is, they can spend $10 MAX per game (have some credibility and stop throwing around $15.. the fish tank is $4, there's no way the cheap seats will be more than $10 in a Marlins ballpark.) A family spending $10 per ticket to attend 15 baseball games per year is not only affordable, it's a bargain. No parking to worry about!

 

Did you SEE how packed the Calle Ocho parade was? The Marlins are insanely popular in Little Havana; you've got to be joking when you suggest that this won't equate to an increase in ticket sales for a ballclub that is struggling very much at the gate.

 

Essentially your point here is that "businessmen from Downtown" are going to sit around two hours after work to attend Marlins games in downtown Miami after having spent an entire day WORKING there. And you believe this theoretical "businessman" fanbase is more reliable than AN ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL POPULATION THAT LIVES NEXT TO THE STADIUM. Again, you're disputing points that are rather obvious.

Yeah, I trust wealthy business from Downtown buying season tickets, and businessman going to several games since they are close to the stadium more than a financially stuggling community. What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that? Well, has it worked for the Miami Heat? How about the Florida Panthers? How many "wealthy business from Downtown" purchased season tickets and filled those seats? The last Heat game I went to, the place was like an echo chamber.

 

 

Do you honestly think the businesspeople who work downtown would be a more reliable fanbase than those who LIVE in Little Havana? You're forgetting that people get off of work at 5:00; what are they going to do for two hours before game time?

People get off work at 5:00? Yeah, at your local Fast Food joint. Some people have the option of sticking around and logging some hours before heading to the ballpark. Not every occupation forces people to get the hell out at 5 PM!

Again, you're disputing the obvious. Now you're disputing the fact that the vast majority of businesspeople get off of work at 5:00. So you envision the new ballpark being filled with wealthy businessmen who get out of work AFTER 5:00? People who work at "your local Fast Food joint" are some of the few people who DON'T get out of work at 5:00. Have you heard of the term "business hours"?

 

Downtown shuts down after the sun goes down. You can't even get a chicken sandwich at night. Let's face it, the Marlins play baseball during WEEKNIGHTS and WEEKENDS. This does not bode well for a potential "businessman" fanbase.

Well do you expect it to suit businessmen baseball fans better if the games started during their lunch?

Downtown shuts down after night, because there is no reason to be there anymore. With thousands of people sticking around for a Marlins' game, that problem does not exist.

But then again is Little Havana really bustling with people after dark?

How many thousands of people do you see sticking around downtown for Heat games? What about Panthers games (before they were forced to move)? Little Havana is a RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD. It also has one of the youngest populations in South Florida! You cannot dispute that the stadium will always a large number of people (including MANY children!) to attend games. Instead, you're relying on a wealthy business class to buy tickets to Marlins games in Overtown when they haven't done the same for other sports teams.

 

What will happen to downtown parking after a stadium is built over the municipally-held parking lots?

Don't even compare the parking in Downtown to that of the Orange Bowl. Not everybody going to games in Downtown must drive and park because of the simplicity of the MetroRail and parking garages for offices Downtown, but the parking near the Orange Bowl is absent. To aquire SOME parking downtown the destruction of hundreds of homes and business must occur.

You've essentially tossed the ball in my court without first taking your free throw. The parking situation downtown will get WORSE because many of those parking lots you refer to will be built upon. Realize that this new ballpark seats nearly 40,000 people; it is nothing like the current Miami Arena. You have no solution to this problem.

 

I will admit that the parking situation at the OB is bad for games with 40,000 people. But don't you think the parking situation would get better when there are TWO stadiums with two parking lots? What about when Metrorail access is complete? You continue to compare apples to oranges by saying that Overtown can handle doubled parking demands with far fewer parking lots, then comparing this to the OB, which already manages to handle 40,000--however difficult it is.

 

How would you justify spending more on building a stadium near Miami Arena? Do you believe there will be a greater return on that investment?

Because, if you are going to spend that much precious money on a stadium, might as well get it right. The Orange Bowl site is a disaster waiting to happen. Where is the land for the stadium? Will the Orange Bowl must first be destroyed? Where will parking be? How many homes must be demolished? When can the construction begin? Will Downtown businessmen put up with driving from their offices to the Orange Bowl in 836 traffic?

I was hoping you'd answer my question about economics, since it is THE most important factor in making this decision. Nonetheless, I'll answer your questions again. The city owns essentially all of the land surrounding the Orange Bowl. The cost of buying out homes is very cheap for construction purposes--far cheaper than purchasing additional expensive land downtown and performing an inordinately complicated construction project. Homes aren't just taken from people and "demolished"; they are purchased for what they are worth, and THEN they are demolished to build upon. The groundbreaking for either project should begin in 2004 if it is to be completed in 2007. Oh, and those "Downtown businessmen" you refer to--whichever ones are still around at 7:00pm--will NOT have to drive on 836 to get to the Orange Bowl. Look at a map!

 

In summary:

 

The Orange Bowl is the superior location because:

1) It is safer.

2) It is easily accessible by Metrobus, and soon Metrorail.

3) Construction would be MUCH cheaper.

4) The city ALREADY owns the land, so no land would have to be purchased.

5) Parking will improve by having two stadium lots and upcoming Metrorail access.

6) It is situated in a baseball-friendly Cuban neighborhood filled with young people: this would provide much-needed ATTENDANCE for a team that has always struggled at the gate

 

The Miami Arena is NOT ideal because:

1) It is unsafe. Do you think the youngest fans in professional sports--baseball fans--should walk past droves of homeless people in order to get to a Marlins game?

2) There is very little to do in Overtown after the sun goes down.

3) Construction would be immensely complicated and expensive due to the adjacent train tracks and telecommunication center. The cost of moving the telecom center itself is unneccessary. Currently, there still remains $36 million--more than half the total cost--in unpaid construction debt from the construction of the comparatively small Miami Arena.

4) Land would have to be PURCHASED. Even in the crummiest part of town, the cost of downtown property is EXORBITANT.

5) Municipally-held parking lots next to the Miami Arena would have to be built upon. This would further exacerbate the parking problem. To top it off, Overtown would have to accommodate TWICE as many visitors as before.

6) The same bottleneck traffic pileup that occurs for 40,000-plus Orange Bowl crowds would occur Downtown if it were placed in the same situation. How many roads lead to I-95, or 836 for that matter? While the OB situation can only get better with rail access and possible road expansion, the land Downtown is maximally developed; it is physically impossible to expand a road that is flanked by buildings. This would create an unusual predicament not seen anywhere else in Miami-Dade County.

7) Wealthy businesspeople who must wait for two hours after work to attend a baseball game are NOT who you should rely on to pack a stadium. It didn't work for the Panthers or Heat, and I can't imagine it working for the Marlins.

 

 

In closing, I have a few questions that I'd really like you to answer:

1) I simply don't buy your assertion that more wealthy businessmen will stick around after work and attend Marlins games than an ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL POPULATION in Little Havana. Why do you think more downtown business-people would attend games than an entire Little Havana population? How will the execs manage to draw all these business-people to games? How can the team rely on these people to show up for games downtown when this clearly wasn't the case for the Miami Heat and the Florida Panthers?

 

2) Again, how would you justify spending more on building a stadium near Miami Arena? Do you believe there will be a greater return on that investment? This question is at the crux of the decision, and I really hope you can answer it. In the end, it is ECONOMICS that determines where the ballpark will be built. If you honestly believe that the Marlins will get a greater LONG-TERM return (i.e. more attendance and a viable franchise for the next 20+ years) on this riskier investment, please explain your reasoning.

 

 

I actually preferred the Miami Arena site until I did some research and actually broke down the logistics. I hope I've changed your mind, miami15.

I, personally, wouldn't feel comfortable having to drive over and park my car in some corner of the inner city, then leaving it there for the duration of a ballgame.

But you feel real safe leaving your car in someone's backyard for three hours?

 

Again, you continue to compare apples to oranges. A football game with 40,000 in attendance does not compare to a basketball game with 18,000 in attendance. How could you compare the traffic?

 

More people will be driving to the Orange Bowl. Nearly every fan will have to drive to the games. Meanwhile, at the Miami Arena site many fans will have the option of MetroRail and will have the luxury of their offices near the stadium. Plus, since the Orange Bowl is in a more residential neighborhood, expressways are few and far between. Traffic jams WILL occur. With thousands of fans (hopefully) coming from Broward and Palm Beach, there will be mad rushes to 836. Meanwhile Downtown traffic at night is usually not existing and the roads flow cleanly. With thousands of fans crossing streets near the Orange Bowl, fans' lives will also be in danger. But you're gonna say that it is worse near the Miami Arena, right? Because instead of getting run over by a car, someone is SURE to come up and stab you or something. Right?

And have a jolly time walking through the maze streets down near the Orange Bowl, at night, looking at houses that all look the same - then waiting in traffic!

 

Again, you haven't responded to my point that NOT EVERYONE IN LITTLE HAVANA IS ON WELFARE. You're making it sound like these are the poorest people in the city. I don't care how poor someone is, they can spend $10 MAX per game (have some credibility and stop throwing around $15.. the fish tank is $4, there's no way the cheap seats will be more than $10 in a Marlins ballpark.) A family spending $10 per ticket to attend 15 baseball games per year is not only affordable, it's a bargain. No parking to worry about!

 

OK! Fine! Not everybody in Little Havana is in welfare. But with the average resident, not so wealthy at all, it is not a wise idea relying on these fans as the Florida Marlins' primary customers. Where were they at Pro Player? What they can't afford the great buses there? Because there are so many buses near their homes? Sure, these fans showed up at a parade. When the team (God forbid) goes through tough times, will these fans show up?

And what about the common saying that baseball games are too expensive? How do you expect them to manage going to plenty of games?

Plus, if they go to the games, who is going to watch the other fans' cars?

 

there's no way the cheap seats will be more than $10 in a Marlins ballpark.) A family spending $10 per ticket to attend 15 baseball games per year is not only affordable, it's a bargain.

Tickets of 10$? Sure, but not everyone can sit in the upper deck!

Family of 4:

4 tickets= 40$

Concessions 15$ (not everyone gets food, but not everyone doesn't; 15$ if a fair guess for 4 people; maybe too fair)

55$ per game.

15 games a year

$825

 

not only affordable, it's a bargain

 

Really? Have fun!

 

 

What's wrong with that? Well, has it worked for the Miami Heat? How about the Florida Panthers? How many "wealthy business from Downtown" purchased season tickets and filled those seats? The last Heat game I went to, the place was like an echo chamber.

The chances of companies purchasing season tickets for a stadium Downtown is far more likely than that of a stadium in Little Havana. Counting on this factor is very important.

Sure AAA looks like an echo chamber. But many of the tickets were sold.

Last year, with a last place finish in the Atlantic Division, the Heat managed to sell more than 15,000 tickets per game. Turns out, the fans were so scared of Overtown, the Heat managed to sell around 15,000 tickets per game to games in the Miami Arena too.

More than 15,000 tickets would be sold at a Marlins' game Downtown. This is because 38,000 offers a lot more seats than a basketball arena, meaning there are much more than 15,000 quality seats. Expect an attendance increase.

 

OB, which already manages to handle 40,000--however difficult it is.

They do - 7 or 8 times a year! Try getting the friendly people of Little Havana to have their neighborhood invaded by noise and traffic 81 times a year. Not to mention with the majority of the games at night.

 

Instead, you're relying on a wealthy business class to buy tickets to Marlins games in Overtown when they haven't done the same for other sports teams.

They haven't?

 

 

Oh, and those "Downtown businessmen" you refer to--whichever ones are still around at 7:00pm--will NOT have to drive on 836 to get to the Orange Bowl. Look at a map!

Ha! You expect these fans to take the same route as the Marlins did on their victory parade? Seems like a traffic problem to me! Have fun with driving between Downtown and the OB!

 

 

It is unsafe. Do you think the youngest fans in professional sports--baseball fans--should walk past droves of homeless people in order to get to a Marlins game?

Do you think the youngest fans in sports should have to park in people's backyards, or walk a mile from Civic Center? Do you? Lets get them a limousine with video games so they can get to the stadium in style!

 

The city ALREADY owns the land, so no land would have to be purchased.

I never knew the city owned all those homes that are like 200 ft from the stadium! I never knew that! What a mess it will be to buy all that land from everybody, bulldoze it, and then start construction.

 

this would provide much-needed ATTENDANCE for a team that has always struggled at the gate

and why wouldn't a stadium Downtown do this?

 

It is safer.

I still don't understand. You'd rather walk a mile in a mediocre neighborhood, than a block in a bad neighborhood.

Overtown can be cleaned up.

 

There is very little to do in Overtown after the sun goes down.

This isn't which area has the better nightlife? What is there to do in Little Havana after dark? Go to one of those illegal cafes with prostitutes and drugs? The youngest fans in sports will enjoy that!

 

Land would have to be PURCHASED.

Sorry! I keep forgetting the city does not have to buy the land near the Orange Bowl before knocking it down. I will write it down so I don't forget!

 

To top it off, Overtown would have to accommodate TWICE as many visitors as before.

And Little Havana will have to accomodate thousands of people on ELEVEN times as many days as before!

 

While the OB situation can only get better with rail access and possible road expansion, the land Downtown is maximally developed; it is physically impossible to expand a road that is flanked by buildings.

If it sucks in the OB now, and it does, will fans want to go back for more? Nope! They did for Heat games!

 

Lets say the ULLICO does pitch in 115$ Million. Then we will have more than enough money for the stadium, without even factoring in the money from the naming rights.

If you have enough money for the stadium in the Miami Arena use it. But don't waste the money on the Orange Bowl site, which is sure to backfire.

 

I really don't like the idea of relying on the Little Havana fans. 81 games is a lot to sell tickets for and with many residents of the neighborhood in a sticky economic situation, this plan probably could backfire. And of course Little Havana fans showed support for the team after the won the World Series. Can you name any neighborhood that wouldn't show up for a parade in its neighborhood 3 days afterwards?

 

And did you say the people Downtown at the parade? Just as much as Little Havana! If they can show up for a parade during a workday, you think they might show up for a baseball game at night? Just maybe?

 

 

And my main concern for the proposal of a Marlins' stadium at the Orange Bowl is the lack of land. Seriously, where the hell is this stadium going to be? There is no room for parking, let alone a MLB stadium! Please tell me the plans for this dillemma, not for the sake of winning this debate, but because I went to the game today and I could not find room for a Mark Light stadium!

 

If the University of Miami, which has dominated over the past decade, can not draw well on Saturday afternoons in the fall, why will baseball be so popular at night in the middle of the week in the summer?

 

But really, where will they put a stadium near the OB? The protesters at the Free Trade of the Americas conference next week might help clear some land out before the Miami Arena is exploded. And demolishing train tracks that haven't been used in years won't be the problem that destroying peoples' homes will be.

 

And another thing: People say they are going to the baseball game in Downtown, not necessarily Overtown. But what are they supposed to think about going to games in the middle of a crummy residential neighborhood?

I'll just quickly clarify a few points, since I've essentially already stated my case.

 

Instead, you're relying on a wealthy business class to buy tickets to Marlins games in Overtown when they haven't done the same for other sports teams.

They haven't?

If you think the Heat and Panthers attendance was good, I've got a bridge to sell you. If you think most of the people at those games were business people, I've got another bridge to sell you.

 

Oh, and those "Downtown businessmen" you refer to--whichever ones are still around at 7:00pm--will NOT have to drive on 836 to get to the Orange Bowl. Look at a map!

Ha! You expect these fans to take the same route as the Marlins did on their victory parade? Seems like a traffic problem to me! Have fun with driving between Downtown and the OB!

Again, look at a map. I wasn't referring to Calle Ocho, and even if I were, comparing "victory parade" congestion to regular street traffic is a ludicrous. There are numerous ways of getting in and out of the OB.

 

The city ALREADY owns the land, so no land would have to be purchased.

I never knew the city owned all those homes that are like 200 ft from the stadium! I never knew that! What a mess it will be to buy all that land from everybody, bulldoze it, and then start construction.

This, by far, is the BIGGEST point that you fail to understand. This, in essence, is the entire argument. There is a difference between LAND OWNERSHIP and HOME OWNERSHIP. The cost of DOWNTOWN LAND is EXPONENTIALLY GREATER than the cost of low-to-mid income housing. The city ALREADY OWNS the land surrounding the Orange Bowl!

 

this would provide much-needed ATTENDANCE for a team that has always struggled at the gate

and why wouldn't a stadium Downtown do this?

Again, a downtown stadium doesn't have a huge baseball-friendly population living within walking distance.

 

It is safer.

I still don't understand. You'd rather walk a mile in a mediocre neighborhood, than a block in a bad neighborhood.

Overtown can be cleaned up.

Again, you're disputing the obvious. Overtown wasn't cleaned up for the Miami Arena or the American Airlines Arena. Why would it be cleaned up now? This is CLEARLY one of the most dangerous areas in the city.

 

There is very little to do in Overtown after the sun goes down.

This isn't which area has the better nightlife? What is there to do in Little Havana after dark? Go to one of those illegal cafes with prostitutes and drugs? The youngest fans in sports will enjoy that!

LOL... I went to Vegas over Labor Day weekend, and believe me, its nightlife wasn't NEARLY as rocking as Little Havana's supposedly is.

 

Land would have to be PURCHASED.

Sorry! I keep forgetting the city does not have to buy the land near the Orange Bowl before knocking it down. I will write it down so I don't forget!

LOW INCOME HOUSING OWNERSHIP versus DOWNTOWN LAND OWNERSHIP. PLEASE don't make me break this one down into dollars for you.

 

To top it off, Overtown would have to accommodate TWICE as many visitors as before.

And Little Havana will have to accomodate thousands of people on ELEVEN times as many days as before!

--but with Metrorail and added parking!! Big difference!

 

Lets say the ULLICO does pitch in 115$ Million. Then we will have more than enough money for the stadium, without even factoring in the money from the naming rights.

If you have enough money for the stadium in the Miami Arena use it. But don't waste the money on the Orange Bowl site, which is sure to backfire

ULLICO is offering a LOAN. Regardless, you go with what you can AFFORD. Be logical and realize which gives you a BIGGER RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT.

alkazoid is the winner.

 

Good work gentlemen.

 

Anyone may now reply to this topic.

I don't know if this question has been answered, but where would the stadium at the Orange Bowl site be? Where is the room?

miami15, the neighborhood would be knocked down and new space would be made for the Orange Bowl parking garage/lot, Ballpark and parking for it, and the county could decide to lease remaining space to businesses and/or use it for the MetroRail expansion.

 

The county owns the land, all they need to do is evict everyone and tear down the houses.

Somehow I get the feeling this one was a little bit more decisive.

Wow....that's a lot of words. In lieu of reading them all, I'll just say.....good job to both competitors.

Thank god i didn't join the debates,i can't write so much,lol.

Somehow I get the feeling this one was a little bit more decisive.

Agreed.

 

And I would have never won this topic. I know nothing about the stadium subject.

lol, i feel sorry for the judges who had to read this one

I don't know if this question has been answered, but where would the stadium at the Orange Bowl site be? Where is the room?

capefish answered it. the city will basically payoff all the homeowners/landlords and build on the land, since the land is property of the city.

 

both the OB and the miami arena have their share of problems. i'd love to see this thing by the water at bicentennial park more than anywhere else.

i'd love to see this thing by the water at bicentennial park more than anywhere else.

I can't understand why Bicentennial Park is never considered. Plenty of room on the water and it is not in use.

 

Buying all those homes near the Orange Bowl will be a b*tch.

 

But to tell you the truth, I don't mind PPS. I live 30 minutes away, but we have great seats there and it is a great place to watch a game.

I'll miss it but not that much.

capefish answered it. the city will basically payoff all the homeowners/landlords and build on the land, since the land is property of the city.

 

both the OB and the miami arena have their share of problems. i'd love to see this thing by the water at bicentennial park more than anywhere else.

It is called Eminent Domain. Every government in the US has the power. It allows governments to give each homeowner a reasonable amount of money for the right to purchase the home and then allow the government to do as they please with it. They do it everytime they want to expand a highway.

 

And Bicentennial park used to be mentioned all the time, but the truth is so many different people with power won't allow it. It would be perfect, but it sadly can't and won't happen.

I can't understand why Bicentennial Park is never considered. Plenty of room on the water and it is not in use.

It has been comitted to a museum.

I would like to see the Orange Bowl neighborhood for 3 main reasons.

 

1) Little Havana is a good neighborhood for the Marlins, they are loved there so much.

2) The area is very close to the airport and it's new intermodal transportation center aka Miami's New Grand Central Station.

3) The land is alreay owned by the City and it will be cheaper and help the Orange Bowl Stadium become a better venue parking and concession wise.

 

I hope they build a sports complex like Kansas City's Truman Sports Complex (Arrowhead Stadium and Kaufman Stadium) with a ballpark village like San Diego for businesses and restaurants so the people in the area can benefit from more jobs in the area.

 

The people in Little Havana will get many much needed jobs that will help the area improve. Downtown has no neighbors, just homeless.