Here's why you have no concept of production Lou......who is a better career hitter: Ichiro or Jack Cust?

 

It's an unfair comparison because Cust has 1/4th the playing time Ichiro has possessed. Who knows if Cust could keep up his rate over 12 years (which he can't because he was in the minors for so long). However, in the PA Cust has performed in, Cust has a .374 OBP and Ichiro a .378. Negligible difference. Cust slugs .454 Slug, Ichiro .434. Also pretty negligible, but when push comes to shove. You take the few extra bases and the more pitches per PA, (Ichiro 3.22, Cust 4.32) to wear down starters. Cust produces more offense as a pure hitter (no base running here, no defense which obviously would put Ichiro well over the top) than Ichiro. This is not arguable.

 

But if you want a fairer comparison of a Cust-like performer who will get up there in PA and will make the Hall of Fame along with Ichiro, Adam Dunn is a much better hitter than Ichiro Suzuki. And it's not even close.

And if Ichiro swung for the fences more he would hit a lot more homers as he has above average power he just swings for hits. He has had over 200 hits every single year that he has ever played in the majors.

 

Ichiro should do that then because he'd produce more offense.

 

Here's another player that offensively is vastly superior to Ichiro - J.D. Drew

J.D. Drew sucks. Call me when he can play 150+ games in a season.

So if Ichiro sucks so much maybe the Marlins should offer the Mariners Uggla straight up for him.

Here's why you have no concept of production Lou......who is a better career hitter: Ichiro or Jack Cust?

 

 

 

If Cust didn't strike out as much, he maybe could be considered a better hitter.

 

 

That is insane. Ichiro is going right into the Hall of Fame five years after he retires. Ichiro has a career OPS in the majors of .812 while Jack Cust has a .829. But, Ichiro is a .333 hitter and Cust is a .239 hitter. There is no comparision between these two hitters that would favor Cust except that he hits more homers. And if Ichiro swung for the fences more he would hit a lot more homers as he has above average power he just swings for hits. He has had over 200 hits every single year that he has ever played in the majors.

 

 

First, Ichiro is going into the HOF not only because his hitting ability, but also his defense, and the fact that he brings uniqueness that no other player brings in the MLB.

 

Cust not only favors him in home runs, but he also works the pitcher, as Lou said, with a BB% nearly three times higher than Ichiro, and he leads Ichiro in wOBA, the single most important stat for a hitter. Ichiro can hit all the singles he wants, but when that .333 BA comes with just a .378 OBP, it really decreases his value.

 

You can take Ichiro and that pretty little .352 batting average he put up this year to help your fantasy team, but (again, disregarding defense) I would take Cust on my team over Ichiro if he could just cut down on the Ks.

BTW, Backin2008, do you realize that you argue that Lou is wrong because OBP favors power but he's not presenting power hitters there.

OPS is skewed towards power hitters like Jack Cust and Adam Dunn. Those guys both have a lot of worthless outs as whiffs do nothing to help the offense.

So if Ichiro sucks so much maybe the Marlins should offer the Mariners Uggla straight up for him.

 

Stop being an idiot. You said "hitting." And I never said he sucked. In fact, I said he'd be in the hall of fame.

 

Throw in maybe the most dominant defensive outfielder in baseball the last 10 years, or top 3 minimum, his durability, additional base running skills, and ability to sell "tickets" (which is why Seattle gave him that much money despite the lunacy David Samson feels about it)... that adds up to an extraordinary baseball player. Guys like Dunn, Drew, and perhaps even Cust may be stronger purely offensive forces because they'll talk a walk, work the count and take pitches, and produce more total bases than Ichiro, but it's doubtful when you throw in defense (Dunn, Cust), durability (Drew), base running for all of them, and business aspects of selling tickets here and creating a frenzy in Japan, that he is worth any of those players to a franchise. Ichiro is clearly more valuable. As for Uggla, he has something (career .344 OBP) that the other four of them do not. An average OBP. Uggla is not as good as any of those hitters with a 30-50 point OBP disparity even with his slugging. Perhaps his position scarcity at 2B helps him close the gap, but at the end of the day he doesn't get to Dunn/Drew/Ichiro. Above Cust? Absolutely, but that's it. So to your question, Uggla is certainly not worth Ichiro.

 

So you can harumph all you want, call me crazy, and make wise crack remarks, but I can defend what I say unlike you most of the time. This is all supported by fact, not opinion.

 

And as a sidenote, since you like to 'bash' OPS statistics so much. We use OPS because it's a very strong correlate to run production. Are there better stats? Sure. 1.8 OBP + 1 Slug is better doing it crudely, and all the eqa/warp/etc metrics are stronger. But OPS is easily understandable to the common person as an aggregate of getting on base and how many bases a player hits, and is 'pretty damn close' when it comes to accounting for real statistical production. It's an easy stat to find and discuss, and overall encourages positive discourse. We don't need people promoting "batting average" and "rbi" and "wins" all day. Those prove relatively nothing to what a player contributes to a team. There can be a fairly sophisticated conversation using relatively common stats - OPS, WHIP, K/9 - etc. We don't need to go all sabermetric here, it's not the place. But we can all do a lot better than saying "Uggla scores 100 runs and gets 100 RBI." That proves nothing besides Hanley either bashing him in or Uggla getting bashed in. I want to know what a hitter does. Individualizing his production matters greatly

 

It's been 5 years. When are you going to get it?

You probably think the 2003 Marlins were lucky because they didn't have many OPS beasts on that team.

You probably think the 2003 Marlins were lucky because they didn't have many OPS beasts on that team.

 

 

They finished 8th in runs that year in the NL, aka, dead average.

 

And they were, wait for it, wait for it....8th in OPS.

Sorry I know that I'm the dunce here but wOBA what is that and why is it important? I understand OBP and OPS because you can't score runs if your not on base but ISO and all that sorry. What can we expect to get for Uggla and is Couglan is moved to 2nd and Carroll platoon with someone in the outfield then we basically need a 3rd baseman right? (No Bonifacio) So if Gaby can play 1st at a decent level and Couglan can play some 3rd (groomed to play 2nd I Know) they why trade Uggla? Especially if he and Cantu are gonna be roughly the same amout of money?

Sorry I know that I'm the dunce here but wOBA what is that and why is it important? I understand OBP and OPS because you can't score runs if your not on base but ISO and all that sorry. What can we expect to get for Uggla and is Couglan is moved to 2nd and Carroll platoon with someone in the outfield then we basically need a 3rd baseman right? (No Bonifacio) So if Gaby can play 1st at a decent level and Couglan can play some 3rd (groomed to play 2nd I Know) they why trade Uggla? Especially if he and Cantu are gonna be roughly the same amout of money?

 

Assuming the Marlins keep Cantu and Cody, move Coghaln to 2B....

 

The combination of Maybin, G. Sanchez, Carroll, Bonifacio, Petersen, Morrison, or whoever else you want starting at 1B, LF, and CF whether from the Minors or cheaper Fa acquistions, will have to aggregately hit .743 to replace Uggla, N. Johnson/Bonifacio, and Hermida as our predominant 2009 starters at their respective positions.

 

.743. Not including defensive and base running gains that easily happen with these switches so in reality, that number is even lower to "replace" our 2009 team.

 

I'm near confident Maybin and G. Sanchez/Morrison easily surpass this at CF and 1B, so the only ? at all for me is left field and if they can find absolutely anything out there. I'm encouraged by Carroll, I like Petersen in the minors, Stanton is always looming... but the best answer is to find a guy that can hit RHP a bit and send him out there for 80 games, while picking and choosing when to play Carroll or whoever else out there.

 

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Per the Uggla question, the trick is PAYROLL. At $40 million, we cannot keep all the pitchers and Cody and Uggla. At $45, we could 'probably' sneak Uggla in with only sacrificing some spare parts - cheaper loogy than Pinto, no Anibal, one of Nunez/Lindstrom, etc. I'm not opposed to keeping Uggla, but I think a smarter idea is to get Coghlan to his longterm position sooner rather than later, and Uggla is going to bring back a lot more in trade because he's better and a team will have 2 years of service time, than Cantu, who will be a 1 year thing before he hits FA. Although Cantu will bring at least Type B compensation. For Uggla, and using Marlins players to make it easier, I'd expect at least a "Sean West" as the primary piece, and then I could see an Andino/Bonifacio type to stick in AA/AAA, and some fireballing projectable relief pitcher arm in A ball. I think getting another young starter and some organizational depth would be well worth it. It's really to bad we couldn't grab Tim Aldersen from the Giants and the Pirates got him.

I was surprised that the Giants traded Alderson for Sanchez. That painted them in a corner where they had to re-sign Sanchez to justify trading a pitcher with Alderson's upside. With the Marlins competing for the playoffs though they couldn't afford to move Uggla in season. Still, it would have been nice to get a pitcher like Alderson. I just don't see the Marlins getting that lucky when they trade Uggla because teams know they are trying to trade him which will drive the price down.

I was surprised that the Giants traded Alderson for Sanchez. That painted them in a corner where they had to re-sign Sanchez to justify trading a pitcher with Alderson's upside. With the Marlins competing for the playoffs though they couldn't afford to move Uggla in season. Still, it would have been nice to get a pitcher like Alderson. I just don't see the Marlins getting that lucky when they trade Uggla because teams know they are trying to trade him which will drive the price down.

 

I think this is bullcrap because the Marlins just need 2 teams interested in him, and I can't see how that doesn't happen.

 

2009

 

Seattle .753

Detroit - .731

Muts - .724

Rocks - .722

Chi Sox - .684

Houston - .670

Cubs - .666 < - My favorite

Washington - .653

San Diego - .628

Minn -An unbelievable .569

 

Someone is going to bite here. I'm not worried about this at all. The cubs want a 2B and a lefty outfielder to platoon. We are 1 stop shopping, and all it will take is Andrew Cashner and some mediocre "C" Robert Andino and Tim Wood level prospects.

The Cubs don't need a platoon outfielder. They will probably be in the market for an everyday player in either CF or RF. I like the idea of dealing with the Twins. They could use Cantu AND Uggla and they got the money and the prospects to make a deal happen. Heck I would throw in Reynel Pinto too if it netted a return that included 3B Danny Valencia, Anthony Slama, Anthony Swarzak, either Angel Morales or Ben Revere and either Luke Hughes or Chris Parmelee. That of course would make it very hard to contend right now but by the time the Marlins moved into their new stadium they would have a few studs besides Hanley Ramirez and Josh Johnson.

Everyone is debating Ichiro in here. I think its arguable who is more valuable over the course of a single season, a guy like Ichiro who does nothing but get hits or a guy who sprinkles in some more homers and walks. But the thing is that Ichiro consistently produces well over 200 hits, and he is practically the best in the modern era at just racking up hits. Clearly, there has to be some respect for a guy who can do something like that over a long period of time.