Longhorns Rule

As a Texan that has a deer lease in the Texas Hill Country I can attest to the necessity of what Logan is doing. I hunt on 1,100 acres outside of Bandera Texas. I have hunted this property since 1997 and can tell you that the hog population explosion is a real problem that has profound effects on the native wildlife. The ranch is extremely thick with brush and trees and it is extremely difficult to walk through 90% of the place as a result. So, we hunt over feeders that draw the game out into an open area. Some folks have a problem with that and I understand. If it were possible to hunt this area any other way, I certainly would. But it is the way it is done here. Back in 1997 we used to go out on a hunt and it was quite normal to see 15-20 deer in any single morning or afternoon hunt. Now, we see maybe 2-4 deer. Hogs have predated our fawn crops in recent years. There have been numerous seasons of late where I went all season long without ever seeing a fawn. We shoot every single hog we can and it doesnt even make a dent in the population. The way Logan is hunting is probably the only way you can make a dent. I dont have the resources he does, so I cant do it that way. But if I did, I damn sure would. It would be the responsible thing to do for the native species. Logan knows he is right and that is exactly why he is so indignant. Good for him! Hook Em Horns! (funny I am defending an Aggy here!)

I have been following this saga for quite a while now. I am not here to flame but from what I have observed, MLB is dedicated to getting the right deal for the Fish to stay in SFLA. Not just any deal......but the right deal. It appears that once again the politicos are making a football of this deal. If that is the case, MLB WILL eventually run out of patience and give up on ever getting the right deal. At that point the club leaves......imho.

Second, MLB will not let a RACINO or ANY establishment that involves gambling contribute money towards a stadium. The sport is very sensitive about the gambling issue. We as "educated" baseball fans should realizea and know this. END OF MESSAGE "Educated" baseball fans in the past also thought that MLB would never allow "negros" to play. And they also never thought that MLB would allow for a designated hitter or a wild card. Times change. Talk about apples and oranges. The founders of the leagues and their predecessors spent nearly 50 years ridding the sport of gambling interests between 1870 and 1920, they will not "allow them back into the game" over a stadium site that doesn't make much sense in a single market. Come on really. You're comparing gambling in this country's society from 1870 to 1920 compared to gambling in 2006. And you accuse me of comparing apples and oranges? . . Personally, would any of you out there have a problem if this gambling company paid for a new stadium for our Marlins? Do any of you have a problem with this gambling company paying for a new arena for a professional hockey team? If so, why? Okay Mr. Selig.........as soon as you accept that gambling money for a new ballpark, what are you going to tell Pete Rose the reason is for his continued banishment from the sport? You guys can FORGET about gambling money paying for a ballpark. The politicos that made this announcement arent stupid, but they know it isnt going to happen. The reason for the announcement, I would guess, is because they are looking to further some type of political agenda. And I watch with amusement the way you guys argue about how far of a drive it is for you to x,y, z locations. Us Texans are used to driving long distances. I make the 1 hour and 15 minute drive every week during football season to see the Longhorns play. Hell......I drive 30 minutes to work each day. The types of distances you guys are talking about would be nothing for most Texans. Amusing I tell you. Hell I unfortunately live in Texas for the moment. And these long drives is nothing to be robust about, this is just one of the reasons why Texas sucks. Whats wrong with wanting the stadium near you? IH 10 runs both ways my friend! Native Texan here and I can tell you.....give me wide open spaces and long drives any day of the week! But remembering my times living in Florida, I do now remember how badly your highway infrastructure sucks.......so maybe that explains all the whining about the location. You guys easily have the worst roads outside of maybe.......Louisiana. All that being said though....not dawging your great state.......I have always said that if I couldnt live in Texas, Florida would easily be my second choice.

Second, MLB will not let a RACINO or ANY establishment that involves gambling contribute money towards a stadium. The sport is very sensitive about the gambling issue. We as "educated" baseball fans should realizea and know this. END OF MESSAGE "Educated" baseball fans in the past also thought that MLB would never allow "negros" to play. And they also never thought that MLB would allow for a designated hitter or a wild card. Times change. Talk about apples and oranges. The founders of the leagues and their predecessors spent nearly 50 years ridding the sport of gambling interests between 1870 and 1920, they will not "allow them back into the game" over a stadium site that doesn't make much sense in a single market. Come on really. You're comparing gambling in this country's society from 1870 to 1920 compared to gambling in 2006. And you accuse me of comparing apples and oranges? . . Personally, would any of you out there have a problem if this gambling company paid for a new stadium for our Marlins? Do any of you have a problem with this gambling company paying for a new arena for a professional hockey team? If so, why? Okay Mr. Selig.........as soon as you accept that gambling money for a new ballpark, what are you going to tell Pete Rose the reason is for his continued banishment from the sport? You guys can FORGET about gambling money paying for a ballpark. The politicos that made this announcement arent stupid, but they know it isnt going to happen. The reason for the announcement, I would guess, is because they are looking to further some type of political agenda. And I watch with amusement the way you guys argue about how far of a drive it is for you to x,y, z locations. Us Texans are used to driving long distances. I make the 1 hour and 15 minute drive every week during football season to see the Longhorns play. Hell......I drive 30 minutes to work each day. The types of distances you guys are talking about would be nothing for most Texans. Amusing I tell you.

I think if you are looking for clues as to what the Dodgers are going to do longterm, look at their move to the Cal League and specifically to San Bernadino. I would also predict that in two years they will try and get their AA back in the Texas League. It just makes sense for them to go to Arizona.

Well if you don't share my original sentiment that's fine, my response (to myself) is "well then move to Florida or Arizona - problem solved". re: your reasons, in another thread someone is claiming that Miami is too poor of a market and I think that's a completely bogus argument. I think that all of your reasons above may be contributing factors with the exception of the retiree population allegiances... but I think that by far a greater factor then any of those reasons is Dolphin Stadium itself. One other possibility that I have thought of that kind of ties in to your DS theory. Have the Fish, in an attempt to get a new facility, been consistently telling everyone that the need is because of how horrible DS is? If so, then I would go along with you. I have seen many situations where a franchise, in order to convince a community of a need for a new facility, will really demonize the current digs. It is a dangerous message. Especially if you wind up with a protracted negotiation period. What you wind up doing is making people not want to come out to wherever you are currently playing.

- Marlins contributibng only $30 million up front (the rest of their contribution is future "rent" which isn't really a capital contribution. This is typical MLB financial obfuscation. When someone builds an apartment building, he can't count his tenants' future rent as a "contribution" to the capital needed. He needs cash to build!) Future rents are pledged as collateral on loans all the time. I agree that $182 million in future rents does not equate to $182m in present dollars, but it's worth something... probably about $90-$100m net present value depending on interest rates and the term of the bond. Miami or Hialeah can certainly "afford" this. It's just a matter of whether the local pols want to commit the political capital (along with general fund revenues, "but for" revenues, and/or development rights) to make it happen. MLB is a long ways from giving up on the SFLA market. Despite Samson's protests to the contrary, I would be willing to bet on "Good Bye, Loria" before "Good Bye, Marlins". Why is it assumed that if MLB lets Loria leave for greener pastures that they will be "giving up on the SFLA market?" I believe it might be unwise to make that assumption.

While perusing Ballpark Digest and noticing how much money the state of Florida is throwing at spring training facilities, I started to consider the overall picture of professional baseball in the state and not just the Marlins and their current situation. Here's a link that might be of interest: http://www.mesacvb.com/cactusleague/index.cfm Click on "Attendee Survey". This has a lot of interesting demographic information re: spring training attendees. The survey is a few years old (2003) and it's for the Cactus League, not the Grapefruit League, but it gives you a general idea. I believe that 50-60% of attendees surveyed were from out of state. Combine that with the 1pm start times and I'd be surprised if that had a huge impact on "baseball fatigue" for locals. For me, spring training is a completely different animal from regular season baseball (noncompetitive, closer interaction with players, relaxed atmosphere, etc.). Also I think it helps to have the team train away from the home turf. The Diamondbacks and Marlins did it right by having their teams train a few hours away but still within their TV markets. The D-Rays will fix that error in 2009 when they move to Port Charlotte. Personally, to LHR's original point, I'd be more concerned with stadium funding fatigue than attendance fatigue. The Marlins are probably being unfairly lumped in with the funding of stadiums in general in Florida. There is no doubt that funding ST facilities is a huge economic win for those communities (mostly near Tampa and Orlando as others have pointed out) because it brings in tourist dollars from other parts of the country, whereas the economic development argument is less clear for other stadiums. As another out of state person from an area that is worthy of MLB (in my opinion), I sometimes grumble to myself that same sentiment being subtly expressed by LHR - "c'mon Phoenix, Tampa, and Miami! You already have spring training! Why do you get MLB too while we continue to get hosed?" But again, the bottom line is that spring training is a completely different animal, and fairly inaccessible to locals other than an occasional weekend game or (rare) night game. Even moreso in SFLA where your only option is the pathetic Orioles. CLer, I really dont share that sentiment. If communities are able to host st and reg season, bully for them. I really was looking at this possibility as to why the Fish struggle so horribly at the gate. And I understand completely that in sitchs such as this it is rarely just one reason that figures into the equation. I am still not convinced that it play a factor, albeit small from the responses I have received. So what are the factors? A) A poorly run franchise? B) Large retiree population with allegiances to other teams? C) Too much competition for the entertainment dollar? D) Poor hispanic marketing (certainly the MLB gateway to Latin America can do better than AA level attendance) E) The roof I think it is likely a combination of all of these. I know the Fish researched how many rainouts the minor league team in SA has had in the last 3 or so years, and that is what led them to believe that a roof in SA wasnt necessary. But I also believe that to blame all the attendance woes on the lack of a roof in SFLA, gives management an out that keeps them from looking introspectively at what they might need to do better.

Hmmmm......MUCH more of a factor for the Rays than the Marlins according to this map. Being the hardcore seamhead that I am though, after a winter of no baseball, I would be inclined to roadtrip every weekend if I lived in SFLA. But I realize that I dont fit the mold of most baseball fans.

Interesting.......so how far is Miami-Dade from the nearest spring training site(s)? Maybe those sites are further away than what I thought?

While perusing Ballpark Digest and noticing how much money the state of Florida is throwing at spring training facilities, I started to consider the overall picture of professional baseball in the state and not just the Marlins and their current situation. I know that spring training is important to Florida in terms of tourism revenue. I also know that because of spring training, a lot of the Florida State League teams have trouble drawing fans for their games. After all, you have had two months of major league players up close and personal, and then you ask fans to buy tickets to come and see the lower level of minor league baseball. It brought me to this though........what is the spring training effect on attendance at Marlins and Rays games? Does spring training just put the availability of the product over the top and reduce demand for regular season games? I think it very well could. The major league season is too long as it is, and then when you add on spring training games being available in the same market.......man........the cause of the attendance problems for the Marlins might be more than just DS and rain.......and in fact might not be cured by a new stadium even if it had a roof. Additionally, it has been said by MLB that the SFLA market is very important to them because it is a gateway to the Carribean. Maybe so........but even without the Fish you STILL have spring training. Its not like MLB would be abandoning the market if the Fish left. I know I am going to get lit up for this post, but it is not meant to flame it is meant to evoke a serious exchange of ideas. If you disagree, let me know.....but let me know exactly why.

So, in reality every MLB owner would agree to pony up with cash to finance Loria's new stadium? Why do I feel like the duck in the AFLAC commercial after Yogi says "and they give you money, which is as good as cash"?

Maybe I dont really understand how the building of a ballpark takes place, admittedly I have no experience in having built one myself. But for the love of God, could someone please tell me exactly how many ballparks have been built by MLB itself? For the life of me I cant remember a single one. And yet when I read this board, I get the feeling that many of the posters here are of the opinion that MLB is the one that is going to make the Marlins new SFLA ballpark a reality. Frankly I dont see how that happens. I look forward to respectful replies that will further educate me in how this process works.

I think gobucks source is correct. It is the same thing my source has said since day one. ........."aint nobody going to Hialeah." In my opinion (not any source) this is all about showing diligence to the rest of the mlb owners in regards to the debt forgiveness.

yep exactly, basically it is a bidding war between hialiah and miami, partly because of pride and all. Either way the Fish win, and there is less then a .000001 chance of them leaving south florida right now Okay.......maybe I am not understanding things correctly....but it seems pretty difficult to have a bidding war when there is a funding gap.....how does that kind of bidding work? "hey Marlins! Move here! We have LESS of a funding gap than the other guys?" I'm sorry but that just sounds ludicrous to me. I anxiously await your explanation. FYI......Just 14 days till the Longhorns begin defense of their 2005 BCS National Championship! Hook 'Em! the marlins arent moving to texas...so why are you still here? :whistle ...and as fun as it was to watch USC lose the title game...no one cares anymore I am still here because I am a baseball fan, first and foremost. Still awaiting the answer to what I felt was a legitimate question. Do you treat all non Kool-Aid drinkers with the same disdain?

yep exactly, basically it is a bidding war between hialiah and miami, partly because of pride and all. Either way the Fish win, and there is less then a .000001 chance of them leaving south florida right now Okay.......maybe I am not understanding things correctly....but it seems pretty difficult to have a bidding war when there is a funding gap.....how does that kind of bidding work? "hey Marlins! Move here! We have LESS of a funding gap than the other guys?" I'm sorry but that just sounds ludicrous to me. I anxiously await your explanation. FYI......Just 14 days till the Longhorns begin defense of their 2005 BCS National Championship! Hook 'Em!

Seems to me that if they are even looking at Miami (again), there must be grave concerns about Hialeah.....or they have already made the decision that Hialeah is out totally. The Miami option is possibly a last ditch effort to keep the team and they are headed to the Commish's office with their hats in their hands hoping for help. This scenario would also explain the reason that Marlins and/or MLB officials are still nosing around in San Antonio.

This little piece is in this morning's SA newspaper........ QUICK SIPS BASEBALL CAN'T MATCH HEAT OF THE MOMENT They're still a sub-.500 team, but the Florida Marlins are on a 19-6 roll since May 21. Couple that with the cessation of talks geared toward moving the team to San Antonio (remember?), and you would think South Floridians would be streaming into Dolphin Stadium to show their appreciation, right? Suuuure. Since May 22, the opener of a three-game visit by the Chicago Cubs, the Marlins have averaged 10,333 in 15 games at home. The biggest Marlins crowd in the past month (a transplanted- New Yorker-boosted 17,488 to see the Mets on May 28) was 2,657 shy of matching the attendance listed for any one of the Miami Heat's three home games in the NBA Finals. In fact, the total crowd for the Marlins' entire June 13-15 series against the Atlanta Braves (how the mighty have fallen ? they actually trail the Marlins in the NL East) barely outnumbered the Heat's single-game Finals turnouts, 22,199 to 20,145. Stay tuned, San Antonio. Those fish haven't drifted all that far from the hook.

So I guess the Marlins are going to become homeless. :lol Wayne! Is that you? Stop with that stuff Wayne or you will get banned from this board! For some reason this post still crack me up. :lol Glad I could inject some humor without anyone taking offense.

? Besides struggling to fill a funding gap topping $100 million, the Marlins' stadium efforts ran into another problem last week: The Florida Department of Environmental Protection has told Miami-Dade County it might not grant a required water permit on the proposed Hialeah stadium site (and other pieces of land) because development there would result in more water usage than previously approved. ''We're giving them assurances that things will be done to ease their concerns,'' County Commission chairman Joe Martinez said. http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14843035.htm This really sounds like the least of the problems associated with this proposal. Of course understand, that I know absolutely nothing about local water issues in S.F. .

hmmmm.......from Ballpark Digest..... "DuPuy meets with Marlins officials about new ballpark Posted June 16, 2006 (feedback) (submit story) (discuss) Major League Baseball COO Bob DuPuy was in South Florida on Thursday to meet with Marlins officials about the team's ballpark efforts, according to a Miami Herald. Not much is happening on the Marlins ballpark front: a proposal to build a new ballpark in Hialeah is still an iffy proposition, as there's a funding gap of at least $100 million (and probably more now that steel and concrete prices continue to rise) between what government officials can pay, what the Fish are offering and what the ballpark will actually cost. Miami-Dade County tax collector Ian Yorty has said it will be a while before it can be determined how much revenue can be raised from a property tax on a proposed Hialeah industrial park." hmmmmm....still won't give up your SA hopes? uhhh......where did I mention anything about SA? All I did was post what was written on the aforementioned site. I would be curious to read what you might be able to offer that would solidly to refute the opinion of Ballpark Digest. I am not here to have a urination contest. Fact based discussion is what I am interested in.

hmmmm.......from Ballpark Digest..... "DuPuy meets with Marlins officials about new ballpark Posted June 16, 2006 (feedback) (submit story) (discuss) Major League Baseball COO Bob DuPuy was in South Florida on Thursday to meet with Marlins officials about the team's ballpark efforts, according to a Miami Herald. Not much is happening on the Marlins ballpark front: a proposal to build a new ballpark in Hialeah is still an iffy proposition, as there's a funding gap of at least $100 million (and probably more now that steel and concrete prices continue to rise) between what government officials can pay, what the Fish are offering and what the ballpark will actually cost. Miami-Dade County tax collector Ian Yorty has said it will be a while before it can be determined how much revenue can be raised from a property tax on a proposed Hialeah industrial park."

So I guess the Marlins are going to become homeless. :lol Wayne! Is that you? Stop with that stuff Wayne or you will get banned from this board!

Okay.....now let me get this straight......the smoke out of Portland is an attempt by the Marlins to gain leverage because SA pulled the leverage rug out from under Samson and Loria? Yet at the same time JDC is telling us that a Hialeah stadium deal is close to being done and we should expect announcement(s) any day? If that were the case then why would there be a need to leverage? If I were the Marlins owner, and after so many years of trying to get a ballpark built in SF, why would I want to rock a boat that was seemingly being pulled up to the dock? This doesnt pass my smell test. Somebody has misrepresented the current state of affairs here. But thats just my humble opinion. No disrespect intended.

I doubt that the Mariners would ever support a franchise in Portland. Plus the Mayor there has already said that no city money would be spent on building a ballpark.