Portland?s quiet campaign for Marlins still simmers

Sources Say

You might have noticed the recent news out of San Antonio, that the city?s deadline for the Florida Marlins to commit to relocation has passed and pursuit has ended.

In response, there was word from Major League Baseball President-Chief Executive Officer Bob DuPuy assuring San Antonio it would be the Marlins? fallback option should the team fail to reach a stadium deal in South Florida. And Marlin President David Samson?s quote: ?We have always stated South Florida is our first priority, but we continue to recognize San Antonio as a viable relocation option.?

Such rhetoric isn?t enough to discourage Drew Mahalic, the Oregon Sports Authority CEO, who says he believes the Marlins still consider Portland a viable option as well.

?San Antonio has had an entirely different approach to major league baseball pursuits,? says Mahalic, who says he received a courtesy phone call from a Marlin official last week apprising him of the San Antonio situation. ?They got out in front of the media before they were fully prepared. Our style is the opposite ? lay the groundwork, make progress and get out in front of the media when it?s appropriate.

?Our conversations (with the Marlins) continue. We do what we can behind the scenes to be ready in case things do go sour there and they need to relocate.?

http://www.portlandtribune.com/archview.cgi?id=35495

:fyou The Marlins are for sure playing a dirty game of leveage. Marlins though they could drag SA out, but it backfire. Marlins leverage went out the window when SA called them out. Now it's play the Portland card.

Can you believe all those excuse crap about SA.

 

Some of you ask when will the MLB stepped in, well they just did!

 

 

CREDITBILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!

i just dont get it. so wat now portland has a good shot

Portland barely supports its NBA team. This is nothing more than posturing on the part of Portland to appear to its constituents that they are taking a serious run at the Marlins.

Portland barely supports its NBA team. This is nothing more than posturing on the part of Portland to appear to its constituents that they are taking a serious run at the Marlins.

 

 

Portland traditionally supports the Blazers. BUT it is hard to support a team that was known as the Jailblazers (with Bonzi,Sheed,Mighty Mouse,Anderson,Davis, and Patterson) and now a team of high school kids.

hmm wouldnt worry because pretty much says only "if" we fall through, which I doubt we will.

I doubt that the Mariners would ever support a franchise in Portland. Plus the Mayor there has already said that no city money would be spent on building a ballpark.

Portland barely supports its NBA team. This is nothing more than posturing on the part of Portland to appear to its constituents that they are taking a serious run at the Marlins.

 

Portland had a 19 year sellout streak for the Blazers (before current management ran the team into the ground), and every MLB exhibition in Portland has sold out within hours.

 

You are correct that there is posturing going on, but it's not what you think. The "posturing" that you mention was done to appease the tepid grassroots supporters to let them know that the MLB to Portland movement is stalled (and will continue to be stalled as long as the current mayor is in office), but it is not dead.

 

It was not done to leverage anyone, and it was not done to incite a response from city officials (which would have undoubtedly been negative). The supporters have been sitting around in frustration as San Antonio (a smaller, poorer market) has been huffing and puffing the past few months until they (SA) got bored and moved back to the NFL or the Spurs or Fiesta or whatever... and now that that's over with, Mahalic sent a signal ---- "We're still here".

 

Even with $150 million in state financing secured (a starting point) and two great downtown stadium sites, nothing happens in Portland until after election day 2008 at the earliest.

 

Portland is not DC, but it is fully capable of supporting MLB (unless you think that metros under 3 million can't support MLB, in which case you need to contract a half dozen teams). If they ever decide to expand to 32 teams (8 divisions X 4 teams), and if they don't want to carve up NYC 3 ways, Portland should be #1 on the expansion list. That being said, Portland will not get the Marlins, not unless they double in size and give away a Camden Yards-esque stadium. They are an extreme longshot for the A's, that's it for now.

 

I'm guessing you guys have at least a year or two (with no real relocation alternatives) to get a deal done in Hialeah. And at the normal pace of stadium negotiations, you'll probably need it. Suerte.

It was not done to leverage anyone, and it was not done to incite a response from city officials (which would have undoubtedly been negative). The supporters have been sitting around in frustration as San Antonio (a smaller, poorer market) has been huffing and puffing the past few months until they (SA) got bored and moved back to the NFL or the Spurs or Fiesta or whatever... and now that that's over with, Mahalic sent a signal ---- "We're still here".

 

 

No offense meant to Portland, since it seems rather obvious that Portland would be a great MLB town (as long as Seattle allows it). Portland is a larger and richer market currently. The growth rate around SA is simply amazing though, and the SA MSA will probably surpass the Portland MSA in both categories fairly soon (meaning likely within a decade).

 

That being said, SA really should stick to the pursuit of an NFL team. SA's biggest advantages over other locations is access to another larger, rich market in Austin, and its connection with Northern Mexico. Both are more relavent to the NFL than to MLB, NBA, NHL, etc.

No offense meant to Portland, since it seems rather obvious that Portland would be a great MLB town (as long as Seattle allows it). Portland is a larger and richer market currently. The growth rate around SA is simply amazing though, and the SA MSA will probably surpass the Portland MSA in both categories fairly soon (meaning likely within a decade).

 

No offense meant to SA either but even at the current growth rates (at a time when Portland's economy has been terrible and SA's has been flying high), SA's MSA would not surpass Portland's until around 2030. And from what I know about demographics, urban planning, and local economies, I highly doubt that SA's growth rate will be significantly higher than Portland's over the next 20-25 years.

 

Your comment about SA surpassing Portland sooner is a common misperception based on the fact that the MSA's were redefined after the 2000 census in a way that made SA's MSA larger and Portland's MSA smaller (in other words, counties were added to SA's MSA and taken away from Portland's MSA).

 

At the risk of boring everyone to death I'll stop there. I wish SA well and I wish Portland's current mayor had half of the initiative that the leaders in SA have shown recently.

Portland's media trying to make smoke because they cannot start a fire.

For someone who has over 21,000 posts, you should know how to read the media better by now. There are no Tom Orsborns, Harry Miniums, or Rob Meich's in the Portland newspapers.

I don't doubt for a minute that Portland could support a baseball team. :arms

 

Word of warning don't be Naive, honestly like I was, to think the Marlins are seriously considering any other market.

 

IT'S ALL ABOUT LEVEAGE THE SA CARD DIDN'T WORK, SO NOW THE MARLINS ARE WORKING ON THE NEXT. :whistle

 

Since reading the Portland article where it reads that Portland was contacted by Marlins, I lost all respect for the organization. My fellow San Antonias may not agree with me, but the Marlins should stay in SF, and I for one would no longer support a move to SA. I?m not saying I don?t want MLB, not just the Marlins. Your words have to mean something.

Wouldn?t want any sport organization in SA that speaks from both side of their mouth.

 

I?m upset with the double-cross, I can?t even image what you Marlins fans have been going through all these years. :banghead

 

Let?s not get in stats; we?re already been through that.

I don't doubt for a minute that Portland could support a baseball team. :arms

 

Word of warning don't be Naive, honestly like I was, to think the Marlins are seriously considering any other market.

 

IT'S ALL ABOUT LEVEAGE THE SA CARD DIDN'T WORK, SO NOW THE MARLINS ARE WORKING ON THE NEXT. :whistle

 

Since reading the Portland article where it reads that Portland was contacted by Marlins, I lost all respect for the organization. My fellow San Antonias may not agree with me, but the Marlins should stay in SF, and I for one would no longer support a move to SA. I?m not saying I don?t want MLB, not just the Marlins. Your words have to mean something.

Wouldn?t want any sport organization in SA that speaks from both side of their mouth.

 

I?m upset with the double-cross, I can?t even image what you Marlins fans have been going through all these years. :banghead

 

Let?s not get in stats; we?re already been through that.

 

 

 

Except for a few, a real few gullible sorts, we know the "doublespeak" we get from Samson and Loria. The tune always changes. There was a push by the city or others to have them bought out by people with real money and vision, but the team is theirs and unless baseball pressured them, they will run it their way, the Expo way. Yea, they and we got lucky in 2003 and made an attempt to win again with backloaded contracts that fooled the apologists but obvious that they never had any intention of fully meeting. They spoke long term and SOME people believe that 3 years=long term. Don't know what would have happened had they gotten a stadium deal after 2003, we will never know, but now they already are saying that a stadium deal does not mean they will spend a lot of money-it could, but it might not. Well, now you know who they are also but we can only hope it works out-a stadium first and keeping our team-the rest, well, out of our control. Especially since, unless baseball changes revenue sharing, low attendance means more profit than higher attendance.

with no committment to fund the stadium portland seems to be nothing more than a city to leverage florida....fine with me leverage all you have to just get it done .....for the record i dont see portland as a place where baseball will ultimately flourish people can talk about all the demographic data all they want i just dont see where portland is going to produce 28-32k a night over the course of a season . for all the negative press we recieve for our attendance , in the beginning our attendance was good if a stadium with a roof is build and the team isnt gutted shortly after winning a championship i see no reason why south florida cant produce 30k a night for 81 games

Okay.....now let me get this straight......the smoke out of Portland is an attempt by the Marlins to gain leverage because SA pulled the leverage rug out from under Samson and Loria? Yet at the same time JDC is telling us that a Hialeah stadium deal is close to being done and we should expect announcement(s) any day? If that were the case then why would there be a need to leverage? If I were the Marlins owner, and after so many years of trying to get a ballpark built in SF, why would I want to rock a boat that was seemingly being pulled up to the dock? This doesnt pass my smell test. Somebody has misrepresented the current state of affairs here. But thats just my humble opinion. No disrespect intended.

No disrespect done. Loria and Samson are the most tactless arrogant SOBs. They do things without consideration of its fans and the SF area.

No disrespect done. Loria and Samson are the most tactless arrogant SOBs. They do things without consideration of its fans and the SF area.

 

Reminds me of the Giants in the early 90's....and even the White Sox ownership of the late 80's. The only thing different is this "leverage" does nothing for the team because these negotiations have always had a "cage door open" policy. The Marlins and MLB have always been able to "fly away" but they have no where to go and everyone knows it.

Okay.....now let me get this straight......the smoke out of Portland is an attempt by the Marlins to gain leverage because SA pulled the leverage rug out from under Samson and Loria? Yet at the same time JDC is telling us that a Hialeah stadium deal is close to being done and we should expect announcement(s) any day? If that were the case then why would there be a need to leverage? If I were the Marlins owner, and after so many years of trying to get a ballpark built in SF, why would I want to rock a boat that was seemingly being pulled up to the dock? This doesnt pass my smell test. Somebody has misrepresented the current state of affairs here. But thats just my humble opinion. No disrespect intended.

 

There is no leveraging going on here, unless you consider "Get the stadium deal done by 2009 or we'll consider moving to Portland (assuming they elect a less hostile mayor by then)!" to be leverage.

 

Whoever said that the Hialeah deal would get done by the end of May was being wildly optimistic... especially if any additional state monies are needed, and especially considering the fact that Samson and Loria are undercapitalized in relation to a venture of this magnitude.

No State of Florida monies are needed to complete the actual ballpark. The proposed ballpark's neighborhood would see development which would bring in new tax monies to pay for the ballpark.

 

The Marlins are holding up a done deal because they don't want to commit just yet to Hialeah in case the City of Miami may be open to negotiating again.

No State of Florida monies are needed to complete the actual ballpark. The proposed ballpark's neighborhood would see development which would bring in new tax monies to pay for the ballpark.

Until the deal is done and the bonds are issued, you don't know whether state funds will be needed or not... but one thing is for sure --- other than the obvious hurdle of getting the votes, those state funds are a lot easier to secure than $100 million in TIF revenues. That's why they were still lobbying for those state funds during the last legislative session.

 

The Marlins are holding up a done deal because they don't want to commit just yet to Hialeah in case the City of Miami may be open to negotiating again.

 

Yes, I'm sure the city of Hialeah would be thrilled to hear that they are being leveraged by the Marlins in order to get a deal done in Miami. I'm guessing that MOU time is coming soon in Hialeah, followed by a long painful process of figuring out how to cobble together that last $100m, then figuring out who is paying for cost overruns.

No State of Florida monies are needed to complete the actual ballpark. The proposed ballpark's neighborhood would see development which would bring in new tax monies to pay for the ballpark.

Until the deal is done and the bonds are issued, you don't know whether state funds will be needed or not... but one thing is for sure --- other than the obvious hurdle of getting the votes, those state funds are a lot easier to secure than $100 million in TIF revenues. That's why they were still lobbying for those state funds during the last legislative session.

 

The Marlins are holding up a done deal because they don't want to commit just yet to Hialeah in case the City of Miami may be open to negotiating again.

 

Yes, I'm sure the city of Hialeah would be thrilled to hear that they are being leveraged by the Marlins in order to get a deal done in Miami. I'm guessing that MOU time is coming soon in Hialeah, followed by a long painful process of figuring out how to cobble together that last $100m, then figuring out who is paying for cost overruns.

The City of Hialeah and Dade County have agreed to close the funding gap by using a special tax district. This would allow them to take neighboring property taxes and use them to pay for the ballpark. You have no clue when you post your misinformation.

 

The Hialeah deal could be signed at anytime if the Marlins commit to the site. Everyone knows MLB would prefer a site in the City of Miami and the Marlins are waiting to see if anything opens up there.

 

But Hialeah is basically done except for the MOU signed, the Marlins entering into the lease, the City and County Commissions approving the MOU and lease, and groundbreaking.

 

NO STATE MONIES WILL BE NEEDED FOR THE BALLPARK STRUCTURE! State monies have already been sought for I-75, Turnpike, and surface road improvements and the state program for that is set to pay the money out to the City and County to get the work done whether or not a ballpark is built.

The Cactus Leaguer Posted Yesterday, 06:48 PM:There is no leveraging going on here, unless you consider "Get the stadium deal done by 2009 or we'll consider moving to Portland (assuming they elect a less hostile mayor by then)!" to be leverage.

 

 

 

Keep in mind the construction period 2 yr maybe? the longer the wait to build the escalation cost will increase the $100MM, therefore build sooner the better.

 

I do disagree with your no leverage theory.

The City of Hialeah and Dade County have agreed to close the funding gap by using a special tax district. This would allow them to take neighboring property taxes and use them to pay for the ballpark.

Yes, this what I referred to when I mentioned TIF. That stands for Tax Increment Financing. Here's a little primer on it if you are interested:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_increment_financing

 

You have no clue when you post your misinformation.

What misinformation? I am the chief financial officer for a midsized medical practice and I have followed stadium financing, business of baseball issues, and stadium politics pretty closely for about the past decade now (basically since Portland was on the MLB radar, however faint it may be now). So if you are trying to correct something that I stated in error, that's fine, set me straight... but for you to say that "I don't have a clue", that's something else altogether.

 

Look, I know that outsiders tend to be viewed with skepticism and I accept that. I'm not here to to do a hit and run. As much as I'd love Portland to get MLB, I know that it's not going to happen in the next 3-5 years barring a miracle. And I know that Hialeah is very likely going to get the Marlins (and I'm happy about that - I'd rather get a team by expansion than act like a bunch of pirates and steal a team anyway - my inlaws are Clevelanders and I wouldn't wish that kind of ordeal on anyone). But the deal that's being cobbled together is incredibly complex... and you don't exactly have players at the table who have the capital and the experience to easily cover your bases when it gets messy. You don't just wave a magic wand and make $100 million in TIF money appear, and to the extent that you do so, those revenue streams are much more difficult to bond than other forms of revenue such as sales taxes.

 

Think about it - the last big article that ran was called "Hialeah plan hinges on financial feasibility". If the deal was done with a MOU waiting to be signed while giving Miami one last chance, someone would be planting articles in the media on that very topic. "What would happen in Miami if the Marlins flee to Hialeah?" or something like that... and then they talk about lost tax revenues, lost prestige, lost economic development opportunity, etc... Basically a fishing expedition to see if Miami pols will bite.

 

You may very well be 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. But judging from the media and from my knowledge of how tough it is to put together the kind of deal that is being talked about, I think I'm reading the tea leaves correctly.

 

The Cactus Leaguer Posted Yesterday, 06:48 PM:There is no leveraging going on here, unless you consider "Get the stadium deal done by 2009 or we'll consider moving to Portland (assuming they elect a less hostile mayor by then)!" to be leverage.

 

 

 

Keep in mind the construction period 2 yr maybe? the longer the wait to build the escalation cost will increase the $100MM, therefore build sooner the better.

 

I do disagree with your no leverage theory.

Samson hasn't said a word about Portland since our idiot mayor laughed him out of town. Until someone high up in the Marlins organization is quoted directly to the effect of "yes, we're in a regular dialogue with Portland officials", there's no leveraging going on here.

 

 

But Hialeah is basically done except for the MOU signed, the Marlins entering into the lease, the City and County Commissions approving the MOU and lease, and groundbreaking.

 

NO STATE MONIES WILL BE NEEDED FOR THE BALLPARK STRUCTURE! State monies have already been sought for I-75, Turnpike, and surface road improvements and the state program for that is set to pay the money out to the City and County to get the work done whether or not a ballpark is built.

 

First of all, when the MOU is signed, that's just the beginning. The MOU is what gives Hialeah officials the assurance they need to put together the deal (for real, not just in theory). This will take some heavy lifting and no city officials (or bond issuers) with half a brain would do so without the MOU in place first.

 

Again, you can say no state money will be needed and you may very well be right. But if that's the case then why were they wasting their time lobbying the state legislature a few weeks ago?

What misinformation? I am the chief financial officer for a midsized medical practice and I have followed stadium financing, business of baseball issues, and stadium politics pretty closely for about the past decade now (basically since Portland was on the MLB radar, however faint it may be now). So if you are trying to correct something that I stated in error, that's fine, set me straight... but for you to say that "I don't have a clue", that's something else altogether.

You said that state monies were needed for the structure. State Highway Monies for improvements to area highways are needed, but those are appropriated no matter where the ballpark is as that area needs the improvements.

 

Look, I know that outsiders tend to be viewed with skepticism and I accept that. I'm not here to to do a hit and run. As much as I'd love Portland to get MLB, I know that it's not going to happen in the next 3-5 years barring a miracle. And I know that Hialeah is very likely going to get the Marlins (and I'm happy about that - I'd rather get a team by expansion than act like a bunch of pirates and steal a team anyway - my inlaws are Clevelanders and I wouldn't wish that kind of ordeal on anyone). But the deal that's being cobbled together is incredibly complex... and you don't exactly have players at the table who have the capital and the experience to easily cover your bases when it gets messy. You don't just wave a magic wand and make $100 million in TIF money appear, and to the extent that you do so, those revenue streams are much more difficult to bond than other forms of revenue such as sales taxes.

I hope expansion comes to Portland as well. The Marlins were expansion and I'd rather it a clean slate rather than a buried hatchet. The deal is not "cobbled" together. This formula is similar to ones used to finance the Miami Arena and other large buildings in South Florida. Dade County's budget is always balanced and they can issue bonds easily without trouble...the reason is they do three times as much research as most because not only do the County Manager's studies get commissioned, but the County Attorney and Tax Collector are brought in to work, and so are the resources of the State Committees meant to advise local governments on these kinds of issues. Everything from highways to water sources to building codes must be studied completely before anything happens. This planning stage is now being entered to because a workable deal is done pending formal approval of all 3 parties.

 

Think about it - the last big article that ran was called "Hialeah plan hinges on financial feasibility". If the deal was done with a MOU waiting to be signed while giving Miami one last chance, someone would be planting articles in the media on that very topic. "What would happen in Miami if the Marlins flee to Hialeah?" or something like that... and then they talk about lost tax revenues, lost prestige, lost economic development opportunity, etc... Basically a fishing expedition to see if Miami pols will bite.

 

You may very well be 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. But judging from the media and from my knowledge of how tough it is to put together the kind of deal that is being talked about, I think I'm reading the tea leaves correctly.

The Miami media is waging a war with Miami City Hall at the moment. County Hall has been gagging any news and only the moderately-lipped City of Hialeah and the tightly-lipped Marlins front office really know and let be known what is going on. The Marlins have never played in the City of Miami, so if they "flee" they won't be fleeing out of anywheres. They play in the City of Miami Gardens (Opa Locka basically) and wish to move about 5 miles west to the City of Hialeah (Turnpike Future Commerce/Current Cow Pastures basically) and be part of the City/County plan for industrial/commercial parks in that area of the County. The City of Miami is being given a last call to deal....once the Marlins (actually MLB) tire of this...the Hialeah deal can move forward. The City of Miami has been in terrible financial position while Hialeah and the County can issue bonds without as much as a doubt....the City at one point used to need the approval of the Governor.

 

The problem is you have the Marlins run and advised by out-of-towners trying to deal with the natives who are sick and tired of out-of-towners running things. The last 5 years have seen South Florida taken back into local control and area improvements continue.

 

Again, you can say no state money will be needed and you may very well be right. But if that's the case then why were they wasting their time lobbying the state legislature a few weeks ago?

 

Why not try and get extra money from the state to fund the project? Just because you have $25,000 in the bank to buy that new car doesn't mean you won't try to get some incentive money from the automaker.