October 27, 200421 yr We didnt need to win in Vietnam to win over communism BECAUSE WE DIDNT WIN IN VIETNAM AND WON IN COMMUNISM!! THANKS TO RONALD REAGON!!! Do I really need to go into Kerry's record on "supporting" Reagon's defeat of the Soviet Union? 601668[/snapback] no response to my destruction of your argument based on the quote then eh? 601675[/snapback] That depends on how you prove Kerry was optimistic towards winning the Cold War.
October 27, 200421 yr We didnt need to win in Vietnam to win over communism BECAUSE WE DIDNT WIN IN VIETNAM AND WON IN COMMUNISM!! THANKS TO RONALD REAGON!!! Do I really need to go into Kerry's record on "supporting" Reagon's defeat of the Soviet Union? 601668[/snapback] Spell Reagan right fool. :lol
October 27, 200421 yr How can he follow in Reagon's footsteps when he said: "we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now" -John Kerry 601310[/snapback] uh, actually, that's a pretty accurate quote. Plus, there is no need to fight communism....in this ever-globalizing world, the communist countries will be forced into a globalized free-market capitalist economy....look at China....look how non-communist they actually are. I mean, they actually have local free elections (that have non-socialist candidates). Doesn't sound to socialist to me. 601560[/snapback] i'm sorry furman, but now you are just spitting out the propaganda given to make the chinese look nice. truth is human rights violations in china are now as high as ever and they DO NOT have free elections.
October 27, 200421 yr How can he follow in Reagon's footsteps when he said: "we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now" -John Kerry 601310[/snapback] uh, actually, that's a pretty accurate quote. Plus, there is no need to fight communism....in this ever-globalizing world, the communist countries will be forced into a globalized free-market capitalist economy....look at China....look how non-communist they actually are. I mean, they actually have local free elections (that have non-socialist candidates). Doesn't sound to socialist to me. 601560[/snapback] i'm sorry furman, but now you are just spitting out the propaganda given to make the chinese look nice. truth is human rights violations in china are now as high as ever and they DO NOT have free elections. 601989[/snapback] never mentioned human rights....human rights atrocities are happeneing worldwide. The fact remains, they do indeed have free LOCAL elections. It is the beginning to capitalistic economy. Just look: they have McDonalds, Hooters, etc. coming in. If they were truly socialist, they would not allow foreign investors (from US no less).
October 27, 200421 yr How can he follow in Reagon's footsteps when he said: "we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now" -John Kerry 601310[/snapback] uh, actually, that's a pretty accurate quote. Plus, there is no need to fight communism....in this ever-globalizing world, the communist countries will be forced into a globalized free-market capitalist economy....look at China....look how non-communist they actually are. I mean, they actually have local free elections (that have non-socialist candidates). Doesn't sound to socialist to me. 601560[/snapback] i'm sorry furman, but now you are just spitting out the propaganda given to make the chinese look nice. truth is human rights violations in china are now as high as ever and they DO NOT have free elections. 601989[/snapback] never mentioned human rights....human rights atrocities are happeneing worldwide. The fact remains, they do indeed have free LOCAL elections. It is the beginning to capitalistic economy. Just look: they have McDonalds, Hooters, etc. coming in. If they were truly socialist, they would not allow foreign investors (from US no less). 602075[/snapback] sure, they have local elections, like cuba has them, like saddam had'em. but they are not free. don't believe that for a second. and no, they are not truely communist, much less socialist. why not? easily, they've proven marx wrong. marx believed that having the economic control would maintain communism in power, of course we all saw how that failed in the old USSR, the chinese understood that you could allow economic reforms and that way help finance and maintain the repressive aparatus of the goverment.
October 27, 200421 yr Actually it was lenin who argued for eocnomic control. Marx himself did not believe in the existence of any government or party after the fall of capitalism and entry into communism. I think what Furman is saying is that capitalism is beginning to run its course in China and that as chinas market opens up, there will be more freedom for the people there. For example under Pinochet's Chile there were human rights abuses and no freedom of speech, BUT there was a total free market and people could go to work everyday put food on the table, study, and if someone worked hard they could buy whatever they could afford. Little by little that sort of freedom leads towards more civil liberties and ultimately civil rights. Theres a great article that was written (if i remmember correctly) by Fouad Ajami that discusses how economic freedom and liberal democracy cannot exist without total freedoms economic and civil. So in the end I believe china will slowly transition into a freer state b/c of these capitalistic tendencies and eventually Maoism shall fail in china
October 27, 200421 yr Actually it was lenin who argued for eocnomic control. Marx himself did not believe in the existence of any government or party after the fall of capitalism and entry into communism. I think what Furman is saying is that capitalism is beginning to run its course in China and that as chinas market opens up, there will be more freedom for the people there. For example under Pinochet's Chile there were human rights abuses and no freedom of speech, BUT there was a total free market and people could go to work everyday put food on the table, study, and if someone worked hard they could buy whatever they could afford. Little by little that sort of freedom leads towards more civil liberties and ultimately civil rights. Theres a great article that was written (if i remmember correctly) by Fouad Ajami that discusses how economic freedom and liberal democracy cannot exist without total freedoms economic and civil. So in the end I believe china will slowly transition into a freer state b/c of these capitalistic tendencies and eventually Maoism shall fail in china 602124[/snapback] but there is no economic freedom in china. the government has control as to who is allowed to have businesses and so forth (only member of the communist party).
October 27, 200421 yr Actually it was lenin who argued for eocnomic control. Marx himself did not believe in the existence of any government or party after the fall of capitalism and entry into communism. I think what Furman is saying is that capitalism is beginning to run its course in China and that as chinas market opens up, there will be more freedom for the people there. For example under Pinochet's Chile there were human rights abuses and no freedom of speech, BUT there was a total free market and people could go to work everyday put food on the table, study, and if someone worked hard they could buy whatever they could afford. Little by little that sort of freedom leads towards more civil liberties and ultimately civil rights. Theres a great article that was written (if i remmember correctly) by Fouad Ajami that discusses how economic freedom and liberal democracy cannot exist without total freedoms economic and civil. So in the end I believe china will slowly transition into a freer state b/c of these capitalistic tendencies and eventually Maoism shall fail in china 602124[/snapback] but there is no economic freedom in china. the government has control as to who is allowed to have businesses and so forth (only member of the communist party). 602134[/snapback] I know but as it is, the country is becoming more capitalistic and as such it will slowly move towards a freer economy
October 27, 200421 yr orisha....YES! they DO have FREE elections....they are local....they are NOT like Sadaam's elections... I suggest reading Lexus and The Olive Tree by Tom Friedman. He actually uses examples of free elections in China to discuss other ideas. It's common knowledge! Take for example, the the village of Gujialingzi in NE China. In 1998, they had an election for village "chief". Li Hongling v. Liu Fu. They had free elections.....were they grandiose higher government-type elections? No. It was for "town mayor". But if you look at what their platforms were, they had "women's rights", "fiscal responsibility" and other such issues. The fact is....one just has to look at the small towns of China (not just Beijing) to realize that the country is moving towards a democratization, and therefore into globalization (free market economy).
October 27, 200421 yr Actually it was lenin who argued for eocnomic control. Marx himself did not believe in the existence of any government or party after the fall of capitalism and entry into communism. I think what Furman is saying is that capitalism is beginning to run its course in China and that as chinas market opens up, there will be more freedom for the people there. For example under Pinochet's Chile there were human rights abuses and no freedom of speech, BUT there was a total free market and people could go to work everyday put food on the table, study, and if someone worked hard they could buy whatever they could afford. Little by little that sort of freedom leads towards more civil liberties and ultimately civil rights. Theres a great article that was written (if i remmember correctly) by Fouad Ajami that discusses how economic freedom and liberal democracy cannot exist without total freedoms economic and civil. So in the end I believe china will slowly transition into a freer state b/c of these capitalistic tendencies and eventually Maoism shall fail in china 602124[/snapback] but there is no economic freedom in china. the government has control as to who is allowed to have businesses and so forth (only member of the communist party). 602134[/snapback] I know but as it is, the country is becoming more capitalistic and as such it will slowly move towards a freer economy 602135[/snapback] i have my doubts about that. if the government forces this "new capitalists" to treat employees in a certain way and restricts the # of people who are allowed to invest, i don't see how it can get any freer.
October 27, 200421 yr Actually it was lenin who argued for eocnomic control. Marx himself did not believe in the existence of any government or party after the fall of capitalism and entry into communism. I think what Furman is saying is that capitalism is beginning to run its course in China and that as chinas market opens up, there will be more freedom for the people there. For example under Pinochet's Chile there were human rights abuses and no freedom of speech, BUT there was a total free market and people could go to work everyday put food on the table, study, and if someone worked hard they could buy whatever they could afford. Little by little that sort of freedom leads towards more civil liberties and ultimately civil rights. Theres a great article that was written (if i remmember correctly) by Fouad Ajami that discusses how economic freedom and liberal democracy cannot exist without total freedoms economic and civil. So in the end I believe china will slowly transition into a freer state b/c of these capitalistic tendencies and eventually Maoism shall fail in china 602124[/snapback] but there is no economic freedom in china. the government has control as to who is allowed to have businesses and so forth (only member of the communist party). 602134[/snapback] I know but as it is, the country is becoming more capitalistic and as such it will slowly move towards a freer economy 602135[/snapback] i have my doubts about that. if the government forces this "new capitalists" to treat employees in a certain way and restricts the # of people who are allowed to invest, i don't see how it can get any freer. 602138[/snapback] The problem is with the resignation of Jiang Zemin the elements of the old regime are fading, and all it takes is one reformist leader bringing in his perestroika and boom the system will collapse. Orisha remember that even in the US government tries to force people to treat employees a certain way and restricts the # of people who can invest in certain ventures
October 27, 200421 yr yes, but ultimately the power to choose is in hands of the people (although that's slowly changing), which is not the case in china. hoping for a reformist is changing. they did it in the USSR because they were collapsing, that's not the case in china.
October 27, 200421 yr yes, but ultimately the power to choose is in hands of the people (although that's slowly changing), which is not the case in china. hoping for a reformist is changing. they did it in the USSR because they were collapsing, that's not the case in china. 602185[/snapback] guess only time will tell
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