i think we are going to have a similar year to 03.

i honestly think enc is going to have a good year, gonzo is going to have good production on offense(although its hard to believe)

cabs will be better, lowell will have a better year. i'd say 03'ish. and having lo duca a full year definitely wont hurt.

i think everything is going to click like in 03. if our bullpen has a solid year, we'll be in good shape imo.

we need to put money into a 5th starter and some bullpen help. our offense will come through this year.

 

and yall need to lay off ENC, he had a bad year in 04, give him a break. he'll definitely have a better year then last year!

Thats what ive been saying!

i think we are going to have a similar year to 03.

i honestly think enc is going to have a good year, gonzo is going to have good production on offense(although its hard to believe)

cabs will be better, lowell will have a better year. i'd say 03'ish. and having lo duca a full year definitely wont hurt.

i think everything is going to click like in 03. if our bullpen has a solid year, we'll be in good shape imo.

we need to put money into a 5th starter and some bullpen help. our offense will come through this year.

 

and yall need to lay off ENC, he had a bad year in 04, give him a break. he'll definitely have a better year then last year!

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I agree. We have enough offense and we are set if we can get the pitching we got in 03. The key for this team is to stay healthy, especially Beckett.

Oh please. The 2003 is significantly more talented than the 2004 team and the way free agency is going leads me to believe we'll be in a similar boat in 2005.

Well this lineup is better than what it was going into last year so that is a plus I guess. Ownership/GM put themselves into a hole by getting Encarnacion and now we can't get rid of him and we can't afford to have him sit on the bench so we will have to do deal with it. Get another good starter like Odalis and a little more bullpen help and I will be happy with the offseason.

Also, it didn't hurt that 7/8 players on the team had career years.

i think we are going to have a similar year to 03.

i honestly think enc is going to have a good year, gonzo is going to have good production on offense(although its hard to believe)

cabs will be better, lowell will have a better year. i'd say 03'ish. and having lo duca a full year definitely wont hurt.

i think everything is going to click like in 03. if our bullpen has a solid year, we'll be in good shape imo.

we need to put money into a 5th starter and some bullpen help. our offense will come through this year.

 

and yall need to lay off ENC, he had a bad year in 04, give him a break. he'll definitely have a better year then last year!

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It's nice to see a positive attitude. :thumbup

 

I agree with you that we could have better offense than many on this board believe. Enc with '03 performance, and a better year by Gonzo and Castillo....and of course Cabs is going to do nothing but improve.

 

It really isn't that dismal of a situation as some would suggest. That's not to say that a powerful left-handed bat couldn't put us over the top though.

 

The NL East is going to be very competitive this year (with the exception of the Nats). Winning the division is going to be difficult. Atlanta looks to be reloading, and the Mets should have a better year. Should be fun to watch.

To think Juan will be any better for us this year than he was last year is ridiculous. With us last year he posted a .238 ba but a .320 obp. That OBP is better than what he posted in 2002 for the last part of the year and the entire 2003 year. So if he put up number from 2003 his OBP would be lower. So all you :censored who are hoping he returns to his 2003 form, his OBP would be lower than what he put up for us last year! Also he only has 2 GIDP for us last year, in all of 2003 he had 17. His RBI numbers in 2003 were thrown off because of the great batters we had infront of him. He's had over 74 RBIs only twice, 2002 and 2003. Since 2002 his BA dropped in 2003 and 2004.

 

 

Cabs will be better, but teams aren't dumb they will pitch around him and he has shown he will chase bad pitches when he gets frustrated when he doesn't get something good to hit. I can think of plenty of times last year he went down swinging at horrible pitches that he knows he shouldn't have swung at.

 

Alex through his entire career has been pretty constant. The only thing that has changed over the last few years is that his power number are higher, but his average and obp are still close to his career numbers: 242/287. His career high for a season is 277/313, hardly stellar. As one could expect, as his power number go up so do his K's, 20 more last year than 2003, also his career high, 126 Ks. He also GIDP 17 times last year, which his career average is 13, he only did it 8 times in 2003. But that is due to the speed on the 2003 team.

 

Lowell also had a better year last year than 03, so saying you want him to have an 03 year is moronic, but I won't blame you for not doing research. Last year Lowell posted a 293 ba and a 365 OBP. In 2003 he posted a 276 ba and 350 obp. His homers dropped a bit last year, but he did hit that funk. And also, like Juan, in 2003 his rbi number were inflated because of the great years by Pudge and D. Lee who are no longer around.

 

The Pudge and D. Lee factors:

 

Pudge in 03: 297 ba/369 obp scored 90 runs

D. Lee in 03: 271 ba/379 obp scored 91 runs

 

On the 03 team 4 players scored over 90 runs, Lee, Pudge, Castillo and Pierre. Last year only 3 Castillo, Pierre and Cabrera.

 

Pudge's 297 ba would have been second on the team last year. D. Lee's 379 OBP would have lead the team last year and Pudge's 369 OBP would have been 3rd.

 

Sure we get Lo Duca for the whole year but that means we won't have Choi posting his .388 OBP and 270 BA his first half of the year like we did last year. Will Lo Duca out do what Choi did the first half of last year? I doubt it. And I especially doubt Lo Duca will put up the power numbers Choi did. And lets not discuss Lo Duca the second half of the year, because it is depressing to think about.

 

 

 

So in conclusion:

 

Encarnacion had a better year than he did in 03, argueablly. Will he get any better? Doubtful. Lowell also had a better year last year. The 03 team had plenty of offense. How are we doing to replace the offense we lost in Pudge and D. Lee? By doing nothing. So to think the offense will return to what it was in 03 is ridiculous. Our pitching, including bullpen pitching, was just as good or better than what he had in 03 and we did considerablly worse. Our offense is what needs help, not pitching. The numbers are there, research people!

 

2003 teams ERA: 4.04 and 692 total runs

2004 Team ERA: 4.10 and 700 total runs

 

what changed? The pitching did not get considerablly worse (8 runs in an entire year), the offense did.

Dazzled by Dazzler.

 

:thumbup

To think Juan will be any better for us this year than he was last year is ridiculous. With us last year he posted a .238 ba but a .320 obp. That OBP is better than what he posted in 2002 for the last part of the year and the entire 2003 year. So if he put up number from 2003 his OBP would be lower. So all you :censored who are hoping he returns to his 2003 form, his OBP would be lower than what he put up for us last year! Also he only has 2 GIDP for us last year, in all of 2003 he had 17. His RBI numbers in 2003 were thrown off because of the great batters we had infront of him. He's had over 74 RBIs only twice, 2002 and 2003. Since 2002 his BA dropped in 2003 and 2004.

 

 

Cabs will be better, but teams aren't dumb they will pitch around him and he has shown he will chase bad pitches when he gets frustrated when he doesn't get something good to hit. I can think of plenty of times last year he went down swinging at horrible pitches that he knows he shouldn't have swung at.

 

Alex through his entire career has been pretty constant. The only thing that has changed over the last few years is that his power number are higher, but his average and obp are still close to his career numbers: 242/287. His career high for a season is 277/313, hardly stellar. As one could expect, as his power number go up so do his K's, 20 more last year than 2003, also his career high, 126 Ks. He also GIDP 17 times last year, which his career average is 13, he only did it 8 times in 2003. But that is due to the speed on the 2003 team.

 

Lowell also had a better year last year than 03, so saying you want him to have an 03 year is moronic, but I won't blame you for not doing research. Last year Lowell posted a 293 ba and a 365 OBP. In 2003 he posted a 276 ba and 350 obp. His homers dropped a bit last year, but he did hit that funk. And also, like Juan, in 2003 his rbi number were inflated because of the great years by Pudge and D. Lee who are no longer around.

 

The Pudge and D. Lee factors:

 

Pudge in 03: 297 ba/369 obp scored 90 runs

D. Lee in 03: 271 ba/379 obp scored 91 runs

 

On the 03 team 4 players scored over 90 runs, Lee, Pudge, Castillo and Pierre. Last year only 3 Castillo, Pierre and Cabrera.

 

Pudge's 297 ba would have been second on the team last year. D. Lee's 379 OBP would have lead the team last year and Pudge's 369 OBP would have been 3rd.

 

Sure we get Lo Duca for the whole year but that means we won't have Choi posting his .388 OBP and 270 BA his first half of the year like we did last year. Will Lo Duca out do what Choi did the first half of last year? I doubt it. And I especially doubt Lo Duca will put up the power numbers Choi did. And lets not discuss Lo Duca the second half of the year, because it is depressing to think about.

 

 

 

So in conclusion:

 

Encarnacion had a better year than he did in 03, argueablly. Will he get any better? Doubtful. Lowell also had a better year last year. The 03 team had plenty of offense. How are we doing to replace the offense we lost in Pudge and D. Lee? By doing nothing. So to think the offense will return to what it was in 03 is ridiculous. Our pitching, including bullpen pitching, was just as good or better than what he had in 03 and we did considerablly worse. Our offense is what needs help, not pitching. The numbers are there, research people!

 

2003 teams ERA: 4.04 and 692 total runs

2004 Team ERA: 4.10 and 700 total runs

 

what changed? The pitching did not get considerablly worse (8 runs in an entire year), the offense did.

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I believe everyone would agree our offense last year was much worse than '03. The numbers speak for themselves...not to mention we were near the bottom of the league in RISP.

 

The point is that the '05 line-up, as it stands today could very well show improvement. Of course I say that with reservation knowing we didn't change the batting coach.

But you missed what I am saying. Encarnacion, Lowell and Cabrera did better last year. Everyone acts like we had a bad year because Encarnacion and Lowell had down years when you can argue they had better years last year!

 

Everyone thinks having Lo Duca for the first half will solve a lot of the problems but people forget the awesome April Conine had in his own repsects and just the superb first couple months Choi had, and I would argue superb first half of the year with us. He lead the team in OBP when he left.

 

I am just saying, people who think if we have pitching like 03 we will get back to that you are wrong. The pitching was only 8 runs worse than 03 last year The offense was about 40 runs worse than 03 last year.

 

We need to fill the Pudge and D. Lee holes. That is what I am trying to say.

Damn PhishPhan.... someone tries to start a positive thread and leave it to you to write a book about why the Marlins will remain to be mediocre... Fact is, that everyone thought the same sh** going into 2003. Anyone that says otherwise is a complete optimist (which you have proven not to be), or a liar...

 

To say Encarnacion had a better year last season in comparison to his 2003 year is ridiculous. OBP is not the most critical stat. I think when you have a better batting average and close to 100 RBI's, it's pretty clear when he had the better year. And how can you say it was because of D-Lee and Pudge? They may have been on base more, but Enc still had to drive them in. Or did he just get hit by a pitch with the bases juiced 30 times that year??

 

To take it even further.... if this is your argument on why his numbers were so "inflated" in 2003, then you have to blame the rest of the 2004 team for not getting on base in front of him, not Enc.. It's not his fault if the RBI opportunities aren't there, right??

 

I'm with TealMonster and all the optimists on this board... I expect a decent year out of a healthy Encarnacion. And having LoDuca for the first half will definitely be a plus. The offense will be fine.

To say Encarnacion had a better year last season in comparison to his 2003 year is ridiculous. OBP is not the most critical stat. I think when you have a better batting average and close to 100 RBI's, it's pretty clear when he had the better year. And how can you say it was because of D-Lee and Pudge? They may have been on base more, but Enc still had to drive them in. Or did he just get hit by a pitch with the bases juiced 30 times that year??

 

To take it even further.... if this is your argument on why his numbers were so "inflated" in 2003, then you have to blame the rest of the 2004 team for not getting on base in front of him, not Enc.. It's not his fault if the RBI opportunities aren't there, right??

 

I'm with TealMonster and all the optimists on this board... I expect a decent year out of a healthy Encarnacion. And having LoDuca for the first half will definitely be a plus. The offense will be fine.

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Last year Juan hit 274 with RISP and in 2003 he hit 262. In 2003 his OBP with RISP was 324 and in 2004 his OBP with RISP was 379.

 

So if I told you there is this player. In 2003 he had a 270 avg but a 313 OBP and hit 262 with RISP with a OBP of 324. And in 2004 he hit 238 and had a OBP 320 for the same team and posted a 274 and 379 with RISP. If I told you that and then told you one year he had 94 RBIs in one year and 62 in the other and asked you which do you think he had when, most people would probably say they think he had the higher RBIs when he had the higher OBP overall and higher Avg and OBP with RISP. Wouldn't you think so?

 

Sure OBP is not the end-all statistic. But I think it is more important than average. Choi had a 250 average, or so, but a .388 OBP. Who would you rather have. A guy with a 270 average and 320 OBP or a Choi with a 250 average and a 388 OBP. OBP is more telling than average because it takes into consideration if a guy knows how to take a walk or not.

 

And I am blaming the 2004 Marlins for not getting on base. That is why I am saying the offense is not as good as it was, not even close. He hit better with RISP last year and had 30 less RBIs. It shows guys are getting on base much much less.

 

What do you think would be a decent year by Juan? Even better than last year? Overall Juan's numbers have slipped since 2002. His power numbers were the same between 03 and 04, he hit 5 less homers but played in about 30 less games, so you have to take into consideration that would add at least 3 homeruns and a difference of 2 homeruns between years is minimal

 

Having Lo Duca for the first half will be a plus, but who is going to fill the .388 OBP void Choi put up in the first half last year? You think Lo Duca will post a .388 OBP? Before he came over from the Dodgers he posted a .351 OBP.

 

And do you think Conine will have another 309/347 April and similar May?

The lineup needs another impact guy to have a playoff capable offense.

the team looks good only on paper

PhishPhan - I'm just saying you put way too much emphasis on OBP. As a matter of fact, you put way too much emphasis on every stat. Yes, numbers are great, but you can't deny Encarnacion had a pretty good year in 2003. And to say last season was statistically better, is crazy.. I don't care how you look at it. Ask Juan, I'm sure he'll tell you which season he was happier with.

 

If we can get a similar year from Enc's 2003 campaign, we should be in good shape.. As for Conine, he was battling a bum shoulder last year as well. I'm expecting him to be a big part of this offense.

 

Comparing Lo Duca and Choi just isn't possible. Choi had a great April, that was about it. That's how his numbers looked somewhat respectable. Comparing batting average to OBP isn't fair either because OBP takes all plate appearances into consideration, while batting average takes only at-bats... If the difference in OBP between Choi and LoDuca is .030, but LoDuca will produce more, I think we're better off with Paul in the first half. Plus, his numbers will be consistent. Choi was extremely streaky.

The offense needs another big bat and the bullpen needs someone who isn't a coin toss.

PhishPhan - I'm just saying you put way too much emphasis on OBP. As a matter of fact, you put way too much emphasis on every stat. Yes, numbers are great, but you can't deny Encarnacion had a pretty good year in 2003. And to say last season was statistically better, is crazy.. I don't care how you look at it. Ask Juan, I'm sure he'll tell you which season he was happier with.

 

So saying he had a better statiscally better year because his OBP was up, his average and OBP with RISP was up, is crazy? So you would rather have him have a higher batting average, but a lower OBP, lower RISP average and lower RISP OBP, be my guest. I don't think a lot of people will agree with you on that one.

 

Choi had a great April, that was about it. That's how his numbers looked somewhat respectable. [...] I think we're better off with Paul in the first half. Plus, his numbers will be consistent.

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Okay so maybe the May 221/344/403/747 was not sexy. But the 292/395/472/868 June, thats just respectable? Or how about his 284/404/419/823 July? I guess that really sucked huh?

 

You're right when he was traded he had a 270/388/495/883 line. Just barely respectable. I mean, any schlub in the MLB could hit that. No team would want a player to hit that line from April until August.

 

And Paul's numbers will be consistent until we hit oooh say the all-star break. Need me to demonstrate his fade?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry not everyone can post 328/612/657/1.269 line like Gel-ler over there.

 

Choi's final numbers staked up like this. Tied for 10th in OBP among 1st baseman. 21st in average. 18th in walks despite missing so many games. 15th in OPS. 20th in slugging. And if he got more playing time he would have easily finished in the top 15 in HRs. You're right his numbers were barely respectable, a real bottom feeder if you ask me. :plain

Choi had a great April, that was about it. That's how his numbers looked somewhat respectable. [...] I think we're better off with Paul in the first half. Plus, his numbers will be consistent.

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Okay so maybe the May 221/344/403/747 was not sexy. But the 292/395/472/868 June, thats just respectable? Or how about his 284/404/419/823 July? I guess that really sucked huh?

 

You're right when he was traded he had a 270/388/495/883 line. Just barely respectable. I mean, any schlub in the MLB could hit that. No team would want a player to hit that line from April until August.

 

And Paul's numbers will be consistent until we hit oooh say the all-star break. Need me to demonstrate his fade?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry not everyone can post 328/612/657/1.269 line like Gel-ler over there.

 

Choi's final numbers staked up like this. Tied for 10th in OBP among 1st baseman. 21st in average. 18th in walks despite missing so many games. 15th in OPS. 20th in slugging. And if he got more playing time he would have easily finished in the top 15 in HRs. You're right his numbers were barely respectable, a real bottom feeder if you ask me. :plain

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Wow. That bitch got pwn3d.

I'm more or less content with the offense. If the same eight guys are out there next year, we'll do decent (read: win atleast 75 games). Considering the franchise's history, that's a good season, but not one that you should shoot for when you have such a talented cast on the roster.

I would like to atleast add a solid bat for the bench, preferably a lefty 1B/OF for McKeon to spell or platoon Conine or Encarnacion. As it stands now, the bench is very weak. Improved over last year, offensively, but still a potential liability. Damion Easley is still a questionmark at this point. After 3 consecutive years of mediocrity he came up big last year when the other reserves did. However his numbers were far from outstanding and not deserving of being the first bat off the bench, and just might have been a fluke. Lenny Harris once was a league-average hitter who used his charm and the fact that he batted lefthanded to find a spot on a National League bench and plenty of time to pinch-hit. However that Lenny Harris can no longer hit as well, and can't play adequate enough defense to hold a roster spot. (Unless you call his take three steps to the ball and dive webgems good defense.) Chris Aguila and Josh Willingham bring some much needed offense and fresh legs to the mix, but the bench is clamoring for a Greg Colbrunn, Wil Cordero, Todd Hollandsworth type character.

 

As I've been saying, there's many ways to improve the offense. Beinfest should look at all his options. A big bat. A complimentary bat. A reserve bat. Trade. Free agency. Minor leagues. (IMO, he'd be well suited to ship LoDuca and Encarnacion's bad contracts off in a trade, and sign A.J. Pierzynski and Magglio Ordonez)

 

P.S. Bravo to PhishPhan.

As I've been saying, there's many ways to improve the offense. Beinfest should look at all his options. A big bat. A complimentary bat. A reserve bat. Trade. Free agency. Minor leagues. (IMO, he'd be well suited to ship LoDuca and Encarnacion's bad contracts off in a trade, and sign A.J. Pierzynski and Magglio Ordonez)640348[/snapback]

 

You've been saying Jay Gibbons and Tino Martinez, not Magglio Ordonez. Didn't you just argue with me over why we SHOULDN'T get Ordonez? Now you agree with me? I think someone needs to stop being more indecisive than a teenage girl deciding between a Miguel Cabrera or Josh Beckett poster for her pink walls.

stop being more indecisive than a teenage girl deciding between a Miguel Cabrera or Josh Beckett poster for her pink walls.

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I was thinking more like a picture of Dontrelle's teeth. :plain

I suggested clearing payroll to add Ordonez months ago.

 

Other times I've suggested Beckett be traded to Texas for Teixeira. Another time signing Dellucci and Colbrunn. Or Gibbons, who unfortnetly was tendered a contract by the Orioles, and Martinez. Or Jason Giambi. And should've seen how excited I was when the Burnett for Dunn rumor broke.

 

I've been tossing out ideas, not trying to win a debate on a messageboard.

And should've seen how excited I was when the Burnett for Dunn rumor broke.

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The Reds still have 4 everyday outfielders and still need pitching. :mischief

PhishPhan - I thought we were having a good 'ol baseball debate here.. A nice conversation between two Marlins fans in the offseason. But, of course, you gotta go and pull that sh**. I guess throwing all these numbers makes you feel big and makes you feel like a bigger man in front of your cyber buddies. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a dumbass, I guess. You're right and I'm wrong.

 

You obviously have a personal bias for Choi... You survived Typhoon Choi, right?

 

I'm done with you dude... Come talk to me when you can have an adult conversation.