Here's how it goes. Each side makes their opening argument. One side goes first. Once the other side goes, the first side may post again and defend his argument. You can only go again once the opposing side gets to speak. You've got 48 hours.

 

ONLY the competitors of this specific debate, the judges and myself may post in this thread.

 

At the end the judges will privately vote on a winner.

 

This debate ends 10:00 PM Eastern on 12/23.

 

Topic: Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre. Which is the bigger asset to the team?

 

Luis Castillo - Das Texan

 

Juan Pierre - FishFanInPA

 

Either side may begin.

Luis Castillo.

 

 

Why?

 

 

He is in the elite category of second basemen. He can lead off or bad second with no problems. Luis brings stellar defense. You can argue that Juan Pierre does the same thing, yet few would even begin to consider him in the upper echelion of center fielders.

 

 

In many ways its an unfair way of looking at things.

 

 

Luis is a former allstar. Luis IS the Florida Marlins I would argue. What sets the two apart, Luis does bring some power to the table. Luis doesnt have any liabilities defensively, which Pierre does in terms of throwing.

 

I'll begin with these little snippets.

 

Luis Castillo brings you one of the top second basemen in the league. You cannot discount this. Juan Pierre is simply an average outfielder when you put it all together.

First off before i begin making my points regarding Juan Pierre, lemme address your statements.

 

Luis CAN lead off and bat second very well but you could say the same for JP.

 

Luis brings power??? Surely your joking....Luis has hit 10 HR's the last three years. Sure this pails in comparison to Pierre but it's almost comical you brought that up as a point. Juan has hit 7 his whole career but his are more exciting to watch since their most likely inside the park variety.

 

Fielding....JP's arm is like a noodle...we all know that. Johnny Damon doesnt have an arm either, does that make him a worse OF?? The last three years Luis has had 29 errors....JP 7....granted it's two different positions but JP is a steadier fielder.

 

To me, It's a simple debate. Juan Pierre is the most valuable player to the Florida Marlins. Lemme give you the top 3 reasons why:

 

1) He brings character and spunk to this team. It's no coincidence that since he's been here the clubhouse has been lighter and has been a better place to be. With his hand shakes, his never say die attitude and his constant work at perfection, the team knows that JP will always show up and will always make it a fun day at the ballpark.

 

2) JP is the second best leadoff man in baseball. That's right, only Ichiro is better. During JP's tenure as a Marlin he's had over 200 hits, something Luis has never done. He's also had 110 steals and was a game changer. Pitchers threw over to first more...held him on more....pitched out for him being on base. Sure last season he got more caught stealing but that's because of all the attention. Of the 15 or so games I went to, he led off with a hit probably 13 of them.

 

3) JP always makes contact. He's had 70K's the last TWO Seasons....Luis had 68 K's last season alone. JP's proficiency to make contact with the ball allows a team that doesnt exactly score too many runs to move people over and put runners in scoring position. Last season JP was a .326 hitter, Luis was slightly less.

 

Overall the team is great for having them both but to me Juan Pierre's presence in the clubhouse, in the field and on the basepaths makes him a person this team can't really afford to lose.

Let's see where to start.

 

 

First off as a better asset...Castillo can get the job done in either the 1 or 2 slot. He has done both in his tenure here. Pierre couldnt get the job done in the 2 hole and was forced back into the 1 hole.

 

 

As far as gettign on base, which well thats the job of a table setter...

 

 

Juan Pierre .374

Luis Castillo .373

 

Factor in that Luis must of lost a few at bats due to situational hitting and trying to help Juan get an extra base, he lost some in this regard.

 

 

Hits are overrated slightly. Juan gets so many hits becuase he is inclined to make more contact, true. But he doesnt get on base much more than Luis, who has a much better eye.

 

As far as steals, Luis did the exact same thing when he manned the leadoff position. Has Luis stopped running? To an extent, injury and hitting in the 2 hole will do that. Teams are less apt to have the 2 man stealing bases with the big boppers behind you, unless you are Phil Garner. Luis has become a much more efficent base stealing, something Juan is not.

 

So to argue that Juan Pierre is the second best leadoff man in baseball..that may be true...but if Luis were there, he would be doing just as good if not better.

 

Heart and soul of the Marlins. Sure he brings life and that hip hop perspective. Does that make him a more valuable asset than Luis Castillo? A guy who is a Marlin through and through? Questionable. You just see Pierre more because he looks funny doing it.

 

Again you have to look at the trump card. Juan Pierre is a slight liability in centerfield, while he can chase down anything, intelligent base runners will run on him. You really cannot compare errors between the two...besides Luis I believe has won a gold glove. Where is Juan's?

I actually can't believe your making some of these arguments....I have quoted the things i'm going to attack right here.

 

Factor in that Luis must of lost a few at bats due to situational hitting and trying to help Juan get an extra base , he lost some in this regard.

 

 

You pointed out right there one of my main points....Juan is always on base....why? Because he makes contact. I pointed out that in two years JP has as many K's as Luis does in one. JP is the best bunter in the league and is always on base. Whose job is more important...the man who gets on base or the man who moves the runner over? To me, i'd really rather have the man who gets on base especially on a team like this that went through so many slumps. This was a team that always could count on JP getting on base. Luis was important in moving him along.

 

Hits are overrated slightly. Juan gets so many hits becuase he is inclined to make more contact, true. But he doesnt get on base much more than Luis, who has a much better eye.

 

 

Hits are overrated!?!!?? I can't believe what i'm hearing here....how can you say that! Especially on a team that really doesnt hit too well. JP's contact is a lot better then Luis eye. Remember that old saying "Put the ball in play and anything can happen." How many times have fielders forced throws or made errors because of JP's speed. I looked it up....JP forced fielders into 25 errors which got him on base. These don't show up in the batting average but they are 25 more times that JP got on base besides his numerous hits.

 

As far as steals, Luis did the exact same thing when he manned the leadoff position. Has Luis stopped running? To an extent, injury and hitting in the 2 hole will do that. Teams are less apt to have the 2 man stealing bases with the big boppers behind you, unless you are Phil Garner. Luis has become a much more efficent base stealing, something Juan is not.

 

 

Yes, injuries and hitting have slowed Luis down running-wise but the numbers don't lie....JP is one of the most dangerous runners on the basepaths. While you point to injuries slowing Luis down....more attention because of his past has slowed JP down. It's harder to steal when 500 throws are made to first and a lot more pitchers are goin to the slide step. Another reason Luis is able to do so well, is because pitchers are moving to the slide step and are leaving pitches up for him BECAUSE JP is forcing them to do so.

 

Again you have to look at the trump card. Juan Pierre is a slight liability in centerfield, while he can chase down anything, intelligent base runners will run on him.

 

 

You go back to this fielding thing but how many times has it come into effect that JP has a weak arm.....Lemme just say i'd rather have a guy who will go all over CF and catch almost anything hit in his zone with a noodle for an arm over a guy whose a liability catching the ball but has a cannon for an arm. Pat Burrell has a cannon but if he can't catch up to the ball and make the tough plays then his arm is useless. Year in, year out, JP is amongst the league leaders in errors in CF because he just doesnt make them.

 

Overall, he is the energy of this team and while Luis is the face of the Marlins, JP was the spark this team needed in the playoffs and in the world series....His at-bat in game 1 in Yankee Stadium told this team they had a chance and that they shouldnt bow down to the Yankees.

I actually can't believe your making some of these arguments....I have quoted the things i'm going to attack right here

 

Factor in that Luis must of lost a few at bats due to situational hitting and trying to help Juan get an extra base , he lost some in this regard.

 

You pointed out right there one of my main points....Juan is always on base....why? Because he makes contact. I pointed out that in two years JP has as many K's as Luis does in one. JP is the best bunter in the league and is always on base. Whose job is more important...the man who gets on base or the man who moves the runner over? To me, i'd really rather have the man who gets on base especially on a team like this that went through so many slumps. This was a team that always could count on JP getting on base. Luis was important in moving him along.

 

Again I come back to the OBP arguement. JP is .001 higher than Luis. The arguement of JP being on base more is mute. Period.

 

Hits are overrated slightly.? Juan gets so many hits becuase he is inclined to make more contact, true.? But he doesnt get on base much more than Luis, who has a much better eye.

 

 

Hits are overrated!?!!?? I can't believe what i'm hearing here....how can you say that! Especially on a team that really doesnt hit too well. JP's contact is a lot better then Luis eye. Remember that old saying "Put the ball in play and anything can happen." How many times have fielders forced throws or made errors because of JP's speed. I looked it up....JP forced fielders into 25 errors which got him on base. These don't show up in the batting average but they are 25 more times that JP got on base besides his numerous hits.

 

 

hits are overrated when looking at the total value of a player. A dood getting on base via the walk is just as valuable as the dood getting on via the hit. You are still gettign on base, while you can argue that the dood getting the hits makes the defense work, the factor is not that much greater in this case. JP forced fielders into making 25 errors...but he was also thrown out just as many times on the bases, keep coming back to the arguement about the multiple throws over as you have previously, great base stealers will still steal and be successful the majority fo the time. Luis was still more proficient at base stealing and again you have to factor in that in the 2 hole, you are less apt to run generally, due to the big bats being behind you.

 

 

 

Again you have to look at the trump card.? Juan Pierre is a slight liability in centerfield, while he can chase down anything, intelligent base runners will run on him.

 

You go back to this fielding thing but how many times has it come into effect that JP has a weak arm.....Lemme just say i'd rather have a guy who will go all over CF and catch almost anything hit in his zone with a noodle for an arm over a guy whose a liability catching the ball but has a cannon for an arm. Pat Burrell has a cannon but if he can't catch up to the ball and make the tough plays then his arm is useless. Year in, year out, JP is amongst the league leaders in errors in CF because he just doesnt make them.

 

Many centerfielders can catch the ball and not make errors, JP still has no gold gloves and no matter how you splice it, his lack of arm strength is a liability. Intelligent base runners will take extra bases on JP. Luis consistently ranks as one of the top 2-3 second basemen in the league, battlign it out almost every season with Jose Vidro for best second sacker in the league with the leather. While you are correct in your assesment of Pierre over Burrell, which is an interesting comparison, however I'd rather have a guy in center who can pick it and throw it. Few teams are blessed with center fielders who can do both...in Joe Robbie, you must have a gazelle in centerfield, still this does not automatically make JP a better fielder, because quite simply you cannot just look at stats to compare a center fielder with a second baseman. Center field is the easiest outfield position easily. Second base is a much more demanding position, which is largely why the value of Luis cannot be measured in stats alone.

To me we both have been arguing the same points over and over again so lemme just bring up the intangibles. Read the posts on this board, most people do not want to see JP go because of what he brings. He is the hip hop energy of the Marlins and rapidly becoming the face of the Marlins despite Luis tenure on the team. JP's got that wiggly feel and he's the one who brings character and makes the clubhouse the place FA's want to be at. Chad Fox and Armando Benitez to name a few mentioned how they wanted to come/stay here because of the energy in the clubhouse.

 

Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough that his hit in the 1st inning of the 2003 World Series helped pierce the Yankees mystique and gave the Marlins hope that they could beat the evil empire. His bunt helped knocked out David Wells. Luis might have been here for years and years but it's no coincidence that JP's appearance on the team brought them their 2nd World Series Title.

To me we both have been arguing the same points over and over again so lemme just bring up the intangibles. Read the posts on this board, most people do not want to see JP go because of what he brings. He is the hip hop energy of the Marlins and rapidly becoming the face of the Marlins despite Luis tenure on the team. JP's got that wiggly feel and he's the one who brings character and makes the clubhouse the place FA's want to be at. Chad Fox and Armando Benitez to name a few mentioned how they wanted to come/stay here because of the energy in the clubhouse.

 

Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough that his hit in the 1st inning of the 2003 World Series helped pierce the Yankees mystique and gave the Marlins hope that they could beat the evil empire. His bunt helped knocked out David Wells. Luis might have been here for years and years but it's no coincidence that JP's appearance on the team brought them their 2nd World Series Title.

641346[/snapback]

 

 

Again JP is become the face of the team because he looks stupid on tv rapping and all. The face of the Marlins is either Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, or Miguel Cabrera. It's sure as hell not Juan Pierre. In fact its not even know whether we keep Pierre once he becomes free agent eligible, Luis is here long term.

 

Now onto this whole we won the World Series because of Juan Pierre. We won the World Series because Josh Beckett and Brad Penny grew up in that series, at least for a little while. We won in 2003 because of our mercenary, Ivan Rodriguez. Juan Pierre did his job of getting on base, but we didnt win because of him solely. To say that we won the world series because of Juan Pierre simply being on the team is hilarious. We won because of the catcher we had in the end.

 

 

Luis Castillo is one of the elite second basemen in the league. Luis has been born and raised a Marlin throughout his professional career. Luis is most valuable because not only is he a great second baseman, but because there is nobody in the minor league system that is remotely close to being ready to even try to challenge to supplant him. Juan Pierre is easier to replace and if you asked the front office who they would rather replace if given the choice, it would be Juan Pierre. Why? Second basemen are harder to find. Light hitting, fast center fielders are much easier to find. Is Juan Pierre important to this teams success? Yes. Is he more important to this team and a greater asset than Luis Castillo? No. Like in economics, the greater asset is the one that is harder to replace. This is Luis Castillo. Not only would it be harder to replace him in the clubhouse but perhaps more importantly it would be that much more difficult to replace him on the field between the lines.

end of debate!

Best debate we've had yet.

Best debate we've had yet.

641813[/snapback]

by far.

Das Texan wins this matchup in a close and great battle.

great debate.

 

 

my hats off to my competition this round, great job and way to make me work to earn this victory.

 

 

hope to get involved in another intelliegent debate with you in the upcoming days, weeks and months regarding our team.

Best debate we've had yet.

641813[/snapback]

by far.

642346[/snapback]

also far and away the most interesting topic to debate

 

lets be honest here

Best debate we've had yet.

641813[/snapback]

by far.

642346[/snapback]

also far and away the most interesting topic to debate

 

lets be honest here

642469[/snapback]

Yup.

 

 

Grats to Das, and grats to FishFaninPA on a great debate.

Just curious as to why he won....No sour grapes....just wanted to hear.

Just curious as to why he won....No sour grapes....just wanted to hear.

642474[/snapback]

he got the last word

Just curious as to why he won....No sour grapes....just wanted to hear.

642474[/snapback]

 

Well, I didn't vote so can't answer but 5 judges voted for hm and 4 for voted for you with the rest abstaining.

Great debate guys! I think both of you did a really good job at not overusing the sarcasm and used numbers to your advantage. You made it seem as we decided between the actual players because the arguments were very good.

Just curious as to why he won....No sour grapes....just wanted to hear.

642474[/snapback]

 

Well, I didn't vote so can't answer but 5 judges voted for hm and 4 for voted for you with the rest abstaining.

642480[/snapback]

so whats the point of being a judge?

No clue Ramp. I voted, seems like we have 6 judges or so who don't vote regularly.

Unfortunately, that always happens. I don't understand why people sign up if they don't intend to partake. When I said abstain it's not as if they posted and said that -- they simply didn't show up to judge.

Again I come back to the OBP arguement. JP is .001 higher than Luis. The arguement of JP being on base more is mute. Period.

 

Hey Das, is it a mute point or is a moot point? :thumbup

Unfortunately, that always happens. I don't understand why people sign up if they don't intend to partake. When I said abstain it's not as if they posted and said that -- they simply didn't show up to judge.

642565[/snapback]

I could fill in.

Good debate.