Illegals and In State Tuition

[Rune]

I just read a report in Time in which Mass legislators and many other states are mulling over whether Illegal Immigrants should be granted in state tuition. It also says Texas already allows it.

 

I can't understand this. If I wanted to go to a state school in Massachussets, I would be forced to pay astronomical out of state tuition costs despite being A US Citizen. A person who is not even legally allowed to be here should then be able to get a cheaper rate than I because he or she decided to break the law in that particular state? I can't understand this.

[Fish Tank Frenzy]

To be eligible for IN State tuition you must have lived in that state for atleast a year. So Illegals must prove they have been in the state for a year, such as a drivers license. You can get in state tuition if you move to Mass and live there for one year.

[Flying_Mollusk]

I just read a report in Time in which Mass legislators and many other states are mulling over whether Illegal Immigrants should be granted in state tuition. It also says Texas already allows it.

 

I can't understand this. If I wanted to go to a state school in Massachussets, I would be forced to pay astronomical out of state tuition costs despite being A US Citizen. A person who is not even legally allowed to be here should then be able to get a cheaper rate than I because he or she decided to break the law in that particular state? I can't understand this.

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Id say three things in support. First, the people benefiting from this would primarily be children who grew up in this country but whose parents snuck in. It seems unfair to punish these kids for the crime their parents commited.

 

Second, I think what makes them different from you and I is that they likely paid state taxes despite being illegal whereas you and I didnt. From their purchases that go to state sales tax to any state income tax they may have paid even though they were illegal, theyve contributed to Mass government and other legal Mass citizens getting their state education subsidized.

 

Third, Ive always thought the primary thrust of the in state tuition subsidy concept was to keep bright kids from the state from leaving the state. If these kids are college bound and they are from the state, they constructivley meet it.

[Rune]

 

 

Id say three things in support. First, the people benefiting from this would primarily be children who grew up in this country but whose parents snuck in. It seems unfair to punish these kids for the crime their parents commited.

 

Second, I think what makes them different from you and I is that they likely paid state taxes despite being illegal whereas you and I didnt. From their purchases that go to state sales tax to any state income tax they may have paid even though they were illegal, theyve contributed to Mass government and other legal Mass citizens getting their state education subsidized.

 

Third, Ive always thought the primary thrust of the in state tuition subsidy concept was to keep bright kids from the state from leaving the state. If these kids are college bound and they are from the state, they constructivley meet it.

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You say they are bright citizens and in many cases they are, which brings up the question. Why not simply become a full fledged citizen? You can do self tests on the government website (http://uscis.gov/graphics/exec/natz/natztest.asp). Any student who had fufilled his 4 years of High School and was capable of going to college and thus getting financial age would almost certainly pass this exam. Just as a person brought here by their parents who was capable of going to college would.

 

Also you bring up that it was their parents who broke the law not them. While that is true, seeing that no one can fault a young child for simply following his problems. It still brings up the fact that as they grow up and go to high school and become educated individuals that they do have a sense of self responsibility. Now I'm not saying report them and their families to authorities. What I am saying is that you do have to hold them responsible when they break those rules. Say for example taking a part time job. Most employers usually require citizenship documents, however their are those who take advantage of the system. That person is then violating the IRCA. So it's not as simple as they were only brought here by their parents. They are taking advantage of the system and laws by working and reigning on taxes.

 

Now onto about state taxes. While you say that they have possibly payed State Taxes. So did the legal citizens of that state along with Income taxes. So why are they to pay for someone breaking the law in their state who only is paying a portion of that and at the same time reaping the same benefits? If you went into a buisness partnership with another and you put in 80% of the expenses and the other filling the rest. Should you then have to share the profits down the line 50/50? Now onto an out of state citizen. They still are probably pumping some type of money into that state by pork barrell or other examples. It is in no way a large portion of your income but that same could be said then for the illegals who are only contributing a small portion of their income when it comes to sales taxes.

 

As for your third point, I basically addressed that on my little tangent(sp) on become a citizen. These kids are 18 and older and if they do plan to college they should certainly know the basic principles on what this country is founded on that for the most part would allow them to become a citizen should they choose and at that point, they should certainly be given access to lower rates within their state. If they are paying income taxes and contributing to society as an American Citizen, their is no reason to block access to lower tuition.

[Flying_Mollusk]

Well the thing about gaining citizenship is that they cant. A prereq for citizenship is being a lawful permenant resident which of course they arent because their parents brought them in.

 

In terms of their continually breaking the law by doing the job and IRCA stuff, I can only ask that you put yourself in their position. What happens when you turn around 15 or 16 and your parents tell you that you are here illegally and that they desperatley need them to work to sustain the family and that it has to be an under the table job? What exactly are your options? Yes its breaking the law, but people do much worse everyday if you ask me.

 

Now the paying of the state taxes-I only made this point in comparison to the out of stater. They do contribute to the state system and Id say that its much much more than the out of state person. The pork argument could be stretched for a lot of things. I could say I should be considered for admission to Cal Berkley over a poor person in California because my income tax goes to pork which goes to California and they pay little or nothing.

 

In terms of ripping off the people in state via income tax, Id say this is no different than people in poverty who are legal and pay pretty much no income taxes. Arent they effectivley entering teh same business partnership and still splitting things down 50/50? Thats the nature of the progressive tax scheme. And in fact Id say the reality is most illegal families, if made legal, still wouldnt pay income tax since they would be too low in income level and still would fall under the same argument even if legal.

 

Again, Im not saying youre off base for having a beef with this. But I think sometimes its easy to beat up on the illegals(not saying you are). They contribute a lot to this country and frankly, work a lot harder than a lot of people I know who were privileged to be born here. They arent the mooches that they are sometimes portrayed to be.

[IknowFeloRamirezIRL]

Excellent post F_M. This country is not viable without immigrants, legal or illegal.

 

To me education is one of the most important issues we need to face. When the government throws away so much money in porkbarrel politics and war, why is education for illegals such a big issue.

 

To put it bluntly - would you rather have these kids in the classroom, or trying to break into your car? (Not that they would, I'm just being facetious and trying to make a point)

[legacyofCangelosi]

In terms of ripping off the people in state via income tax, Id say this is no different than people in poverty who are legal and pay pretty much no income taxes. Arent they effectivley entering teh same business partnership and still splitting things down 50/50? Thats the nature of the progressive tax scheme. And in fact Id say the reality is most illegal families, if made legal, still wouldnt pay income tax since they would be too low in income level and still would fall under the same argument even if legal.

 

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Using the conservative argument against income taxes I see.

 

As for the illegals, actually illegal immigrants are a big problem and a detriment to this country. This country cannot survive without legal immigrants. Illegals are paid disgustingly low wages b ythe employer, which is abusive to the person AND also hurts the local economy by taking away jobs of unskilled citizens who would need to be paid minimum wage for doing the same job. This creates cycles of poverty and unemployment in the region that is ful of illegal aliens.

 

How can we alleviate the problem? First we can open our immigration doors for temporary workers who may or may not be required to earn minimum wage. This will bring in an influx of workers who can help our economy, while allowing them to pay taxes and receive some benefits if needed (although that needs to be limited). In the end perhaps some of these cna be allowed to apply for residency. This also helps for naitonal security b/c they will be accounted for, rather than having undocumented people.

 

Another thing that the previous posters have neglected is that just b/c someone enters illegally does not mean they cannot adjust their status into a legal permanent resident. In fact depending when they entered there are certain laws such as the LIFE act, which legalizes all illegals who entered before a particular date under certain conditions. Aside from that many illegals can become residents via an employer or a US citizen spouse (very common). So the college age people who want to go to school CAN become LPRs and eventually citzens through many avenues, it is not a dead end for them. Another trick is for these illegals to apply for a student visa as if they werent living in the country. Like this it will seem as if they just entered the country legally, which erases the illegal stigma. The point is theres many ways around this problem.

[OldSand]

Article

 

Hate mail & reply

[IknowFeloRamirezIRL]

Article

 

Hate mail & reply

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:lolup

 

That is great stuff right there :thumbup

[Flying_Mollusk]

Article

 

Hate mail & reply

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Maddox pwns.

[legacyofCangelosi]

The false logic in that article is incredible. The people complaining about immigrants taking their jobs arent the employers its te americans who cant find jobs. Walmart for example benefits from illegal immigration, they love illegals.

 

The guy said" If you dont like them dont hire them." Thats total idiocy, walmart loves them. That doesnt change the fact they take jobs away from americans? What does this moron suggest we do? Get rid of minimum wage? Hahah, what a douche. If you force walmart to pay them the same wages then the illegals wont find work. The only way for this guy to be right is if citizens can waize minimum wage rights and that wont happen.

[Flying_Mollusk]

The false logic in that article is incredible. The people complaining about immigrants taking their jobs arent the employers its te americans who cant find jobs. Walmart for example benefits from illegal immigration, they love illegals.

 

The guy said" If you dont like them dont hire them." Thats total idiocy, walmart loves them. That doesnt change the fact they take jobs away from americans? What does this moron suggest we do? Get rid of minimum wage? Hahah, what a douche. If you force walmart to pay them the same wages then the illegals wont find work. The only way for this guy to be right is if citizens can waize minimum wage rights and that wont happen.

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Or..you force companies to pay them min wage...hence stopping companies from hiring them in the first place. Thats his point. Very logical if you ask me.

[OldSand]

Cangelosi, he says exactly that. It is the people who can't find jobs who complain. He also says that if you forced companies like WalMart to pay illegals minimum wage, then those companies would lose their incentive to hire them in the first place. Makes sense to me.

[legacyofCangelosi]

Cangelosi, he says exactly that. It is the people who can't find jobs who complain. He also says that if you forced companies like WalMart to pay illegals minimum wage, then those companies would lose their incentive to hire them in the first place. Makes sense to me.

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No b/c then you screw over the illegals. I feel that illegals should be allowed to work in this country for under minimum wage. What hes saying is not a positive solution. I think we should document illegals but not give thme minimum wage, so they can still find jobs in this country

[Fishfan79]

I am going to college on loans. I am a white middle class male that had average grades. 2.8 gpa, 1380 SAT. And I cant get a scholarship for the life of me when I looked before. I couldnt find financial help at all, I basically had no choice but to take loans only.

 

But, I am a person that holds a full time job and pays my taxes. Yet they are going to go to give financial aid to illegal Immigrants. BS. Any legislature that votes for this Dem or Rep. I will vote out of office plain and simple.

[OldSand]

Fishfan79, 1380 SAT is pretty high. If you live in Florida you would have qualified for Bright Futures (maybe 75% b/c of the average GPA).

 

Anyways, I agree. Why are we worrying about giving money/incentives to ILLEGAL immigrants?

[BullDurham]

Then you would agree with me that children of people who came from Cuba "illegally" (I'm putting that in quotes because what's illegal for other groups, like Haitians, is perfectly legal for Cubans because once they set foot on US soil, nothing else matters) should not be allowed to pay in-state tuition. I mean, for the sake of consistency, right?

 

EDIT: That wouldn't have been sufficient. I believe a 3.0 GPA is needed for the 75% and 3.5 for the 100%.

[legacyofCangelosi]

Then you would agree with me that children of people who came from Cuba "illegally" (I'm putting that in quotes because what's illegal for other groups, like Haitians, is perfectly legal for Cubans because once they set foot on US soil, nothing else matters) should not be allowed to pay in-state tuition. I mean, for the sake of consistency, right?

 

EDIT: That wouldn't have been sufficient. I believe a 3.0 GPA is needed for the 75% and 3.5 for the 100%.

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You're statement has no weight, b/c Cubans arent coming in 'illegally'. If the law changes and cubans receive the same treatment as others then you're statement will apply, but as of now theres no problem with legal residents paying in state tuition. You're meaningless jab at cubans is irrelevent in this argument. If you want to talk about the inequities in immigration law then thats a different discussion altogether. By the way, should people who are here legally b/c theyve received asylum for credible fear be treated the same as a haitian who just hopped a boat? Immigration law is too complicated for a generalized hypothetical about means of entry.