August 16, 200521 yr Chad Cordero, but even he has been lucky ALOT this season. excellent point!! 904270[/snapback] Not at all. He's pitched more times with a 1-run lead than Jones and I bet anyone. As a result his shaky outings, which Jones has had too, seem more dangerous. 904287[/snapback] and one final quick comparison between Cordero and Jones for the season Jones 1-4, 23 saves (25 chances) (2 tough, 2 blown) Cordero 2-3, 36 saves (40 chances) (0 tough, 4 BLOWN)
August 16, 200521 yr Chad Cordero, but even he has been lucky ALOT this season. excellent point!! 904270[/snapback] Not at all. He's pitched more times with a 1-run lead than Jones and I bet anyone. As a result his shaky outings, which Jones has had too, seem more dangerous. 904287[/snapback] and one final quick comparison between Cordero and Jones for the season Jones 1-4, 23 saves (25 chances) (2 tough, 2 blown) Cordero 2-3, 36 saves (40 chances) (0 tough, 4 BLOWN) 904312[/snapback] id love to see those stats reworked if jownz had been the closer all year
August 16, 200521 yr Chad Cordero, but even he has been lucky ALOT this season. excellent point!! 904270[/snapback] Not at all. He's pitched more times with a 1-run lead than Jones and I bet anyone. As a result his shaky outings, which Jones has had too, seem more dangerous. 904287[/snapback] id say it IS a good point. i dont see anything more special in chad cordero then i do in todd jones. the only difference is chad has had more chances then todd. 904290[/snapback] Is that because Jones is a) a better pitcher, b) a Marlin, c) a name you know?
August 16, 200521 yr Chad Cordero, but even he has been lucky ALOT this season. excellent point!! 904270[/snapback] Not at all. He's pitched more times with a 1-run lead than Jones and I bet anyone. As a result his shaky outings, which Jones has had too, seem more dangerous. 904287[/snapback] id say it IS a good point. i dont see anything more special in chad cordero then i do in todd jones. the only difference is chad has had more chances then todd. 904290[/snapback] Is that because Jones is a) a better pitcher, b) a Marlin, c) a name you know? 904315[/snapback] actually sir. i know alot of names. you might be surprised how much i know (as you know we have gone through this before). Jones has more experience. has proven in the past that he has the mindset to close out games. im not working as a homer here so drop that. you really cant compare cordero/jones when the numbers are so skewed since chad has been closing games all year and jones hasnt. i just find it hard to agree with you that Jones has not been and is the most valuable asset to our bullpen. you still have not said who YOU think is the most valuable to our pen :mischief2 noone has been more consistent then todd jones. his numbers show it and our win/loss record shows it the again everyone is entitled to there opinions and im not going to personally knock you for having yours
August 16, 200521 yr Maybe Cordero has more blown because of the situations he is asked to pitch in? Ever think that?
August 16, 200521 yr Maybe Cordero has more blown because of the situations he is asked to pitch in? Ever think that? 904321[/snapback] well i dont think that is valid either. all closers come into situations like that. Jones has had plenty himself. in fact i remember a 2 inning debacle he had to take care of the other night. one cannot judge who is more pressured in one situation compared to another. have you noticed those one run wins are not coming easily anymore for mr cordero?
August 16, 200521 yr Why bother comparing him to Cordero. Both pitchers are having stellar years. They both deserve praise and are both key factors to their team's succcess.
August 16, 200521 yr I think Jones has been fantastic this year, and I don't want to take anything away from the job he's done, however he does have a huge advantage over other members of the pen. The way our bullpen is managed, relievers get up and down multiple times a game. It's unbelievably disorganized. They warm up, cool down, then warm up again, only not to be used. From my perspective, this type of treatment is the biggest problem with our bullpen. Jones is the only pitcher in the pen with a defined role. He knows when he will be used and in what situations, so that he can properly prepare himself mentally and physically. I'd be interested in to see how the various parts of our bullpen would perform if they had more specific roles. Personally, I think that the "lefty specialist" is a whole lotta bunk, and I'd like to see guys designated for the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th innings prior to the game, with the leftovers being reserved for "wildcard" usage (in case sticky situations arise that need to be handled outside the preordained order). This way, the pitchers know all day when they will be needed and can take the appropriate precautions. All in all, however, Jones has been tremendous doing what was asked of him. That's all that any of us can expect, and he should be commended for it.
August 16, 200521 yr Why bother comparing him to Cordero. Both pitchers are having stellar years. They both deserve praise and are both key factors to their team's succcess. 904323[/snapback] :thumbup
August 16, 200521 yr Flummox, if you look at a sample of relief pitchers' career stats you'd likely find that their ERAs and WHIPs are inconsistent from year to year. Maybe that's because the small sample size. But if you look closer, you might find a trend that non-closers and non-LOOGYs are particularly prone to this.
August 17, 200521 yr tell me if Jones isnt so important and isnt even that good....who do you have closing for this team??
August 17, 200521 yr Well, if Jones is a good pitcher which I assume we all do you would not limit him to only when you have the lead. Use your best arms when the game truly is at a crucial spot. Key run in scoring position and less than 2 out. I don't care what inning it is, I want one of my best relief pitchers out there. The likes of VDLS, Reidling and Perisho should be saved for situations suited well to them or when we have a lead of 3 or greater (or 2 with no one on) or when the bullpen has been exhausted.
August 17, 200521 yr tell me if Jones isnt so important and isnt even that good....who do you have closing for this team?? 904487[/snapback] I don't think anyone is arguing that Jones isn't good or hasn't done a good job. The argument is over whether the closer role itself is in fact the most important role in the pen.
August 17, 200521 yr he is not a key member of the bullpen and certainly not it's MVP. His playing time is too infrequent and rarely at crucial points of the game. 904142[/snapback] Well, if Jones is a good pitcher which I assume we all do you would not limit him to only when you have the lead. 904510[/snapback] Todd Jones has pitched more innings than anyone else in the entire bullpen. It's not as if he's not getting enough work for a reliever. If he's not "a key member of the bullpen" and "certainly not" its MVP as you put it, again, who is? Exactly which member of our bullpen gets more frequent playing time and at more "crucial points in the game"?
August 17, 200521 yr How is a pitcher who only pitches for 1 inning with the lead and the bases empty the most important? That is like saying the major league leader in 2-out hits is the best hitter in the game. As for bullpen MVP, we have no solid candidate. The only pitchers Jack uses during the crucial middle innings have cracked under the pressure of the situation and usage, rarely spending enough time with the big club. Although if pushed, I'd be willing to say a certain pitcher who doesn't have the ERA or decisions of Jones but has pitched more critical innings and stablized a bullpen that was absolutly terrible when he was on the DL. Now I hope that dosn't lead to a whole new round of debating the pick and someone anyone really debates the method(s) that were used.
August 17, 200521 yr Although if pushed, I'd be willing to say a certain pitcher who doesn't have the ERA or decisions of Jones but has pitched more critical innings and stablized a bullpen that was absolutly terrible when he was on the DL. Now I hope that dosn't lead to a whole new round of debating the pick and someone anyone really debates the method(s) that were used. 904805[/snapback] Let's look at the other candidates for bullpen MVP you could possibly have in mind: G. Mota 50 ip Jim Mecir 39 ip Nate Bump 38 ip John Riedling 27 ip V. de los Santos 22 ip R. Messenger 15.1 ip A. Alfonseca 14.1 ip Matt Perisho Travis Smith Chris Resop Ron Villone (52 Sea) Logan Kensing Jim Crowell Chad Bentz Y. Bazardo Without any debate at all, we can cut the list down to: G. Mota 50 ip Jim Mecir 39 ip Nate Bump 38 ip A. Alfonseca 14.1 ip Another round of relatively easy eliminations leaves us with: Jim Mecir 39 ip Nate Bump 38 ip I'm not trying to be a total tool here, but do you see why your position is totally indefensible? ...it'd be pretty easy to explain why Todd Jones has been more valuable than either of those two. So, how again is Todd Jones not a "key member of the bullpen" and "certainly not" its MVP? He's pitched more innings than any reliever, he has easily performed better than any reliever (in every measure--WHIP, ERA, BAA, metric tons--you name it), and, without even looking at the numbers, I could tell you he has pitched more innings in "close" situations than any other reliever.
August 17, 200521 yr Author sheesh, I'll be careful about who I post a nice article on in the future!
August 17, 200521 yr You missed this: The only pitchers Jack uses during the crucial middle innings have cracked under the pressure of the situation and usage, rarely spending enough time with the big club. It pretty much explains why you can't draw one name out of the mix. Mota, Meci and Bump (especially when Mota was out) have been held back from the truly critical spots although have all pitched more critical innings than Jones has. I can't give you exact numbers as I don't have them all compiled right now. It also depends on your definition of 'close'. If you mean the tying run on the on-deck circle or in the hole, well, I wouldn't call that close. Why do you?
August 17, 200521 yr sheesh, I'll be careful about who I post a nice article on in the future! 904895[/snapback] Sorry about that. It's just crazy how fans and the media (fans through the media? media through the fans?) watch the game and reach the conclusions they do. Someone going to bring up that we don't hit with runners in scoring position again?
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