The War Pragmatists

by kos

Tue Aug 23rd, 2005 at 12:48:34 PDT

I'm not anti-war. As I've said before, I'm a military hawk. I supported the Afghanistan War and I supported the Bosna and Kosovo interventions. I'm not one of these touchy-feely hippy types that thinks war is inherently bad. I laugh at people who think they can "visualize peace".

 

Unlike most people reading this, I grew up in a country at war. I've seen the effects first-hand. I also served in the Army. To me war isn't a video game or an abstract concept. It's real. Yet sometimes, many times, military force is a force for good. There are evil people in the world, doing evil things. And all the sanctions in the world, all the strongly worded denunciations, will never have the effect of a 1,000 pound bomb.

 

I oppose the Iraq War.

 

But I refuse to be labeled "anti-war". I'm not. I'm anti this war. Why? Because I'm a war pragmatist. I understand the costs of war, but I also understand the potential benefits.

 

And in a modern world, we need to be able to weigh the two when deciding whether it's worth engaging in combat.

 

I opposed Iraq because it forced the U.S. to take the eyes off the real threat -- the Al Qaida a**holes that attacked the United States and many of our allies around the world. That was a rightous, honorable campaign. Yet we took the eyes off the ball to go after an impotent, contained, powerless regime that posed nary a threat to its neighbors, much less the U.S.

 

It's a war that never should've been fought, it's a war that's been negligently managed, and it's a war that we can't win. All the military might in the world can't convert fantastical wishful thinking into reality.

 

I oppose Iraq not because I'm anti-war. I'll have nothing to do with any of the anti-war rallies planned in the near term (and the crazy cast of characters that seek to inject their unrelated own pet causes into the proceedings).

 

I oppose the Iraq War because I'm a War Pragmatist.

 

Markos Koulitosis of dailykos.com consistently lays out positions I hold favorable in succint, efficient prose.

Well said. I would have to agree with his points there. I thought Afghanistan was a necessary conflict, but Iraq is just a distraction.

I'd really love to see some conservatives comment on this position.

I am conservative and I mostly agree with him. I think though we will be ultimately successful in Iraq and that the campaigns there aren't this disastrous meat-grinder that alot of anti-Iraq people like to think it is. I don't think most people against this war and this administration have this view, they tend to be the "OMG NO BL00D 4 OIL" types who have the official Farenheight 9/11 grout cleaning kit under their sink.

 

I think we have bigger s*** to fry so to speak and that this is something we could get around to down-the-line if at all. Running a war machine is like sex, you can only blow your military wad a few times before you have to rest. I think the operations in Iraq are extending the days of al-Queda.

 

For the record, so some of you don't think im just being reactionary, I posted something very similar to this guy's views a few days ago.

Running a war machine is like sex, you can only blow your military wad a few times before you have to rest.

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That's the most disturbing comparison ever made. :o

I'd really love to see some conservatives comment on this position.

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This just in: Many Republicans hold the same view. :thumbup

 

This isn't a ground-breaking view. :thumbup

I saw Kos speak in DC this summer. I pretty much agree with what he says. A lot of the "hippies" can cause reasonable discussion to get distorted.

I saw Kos speak in DC this summer. I pretty much agree with what he says. A lot of the "hippies" can cause reasonable discussion to get distorted.

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I agree. I think that radicals on both sides tend to get the most press and elect themselves as the official ambassador of liberalism/conservatism. Not only that I think that they are creating divisions in our society and are drowning out the chances of reasonable debate between normal people who just happen to disagree about politics.

So depressing that there were so few with the balls to speak out while this was happening though. gutless media.

 

Goes to show how well the "you're either with us or against us" and "terrorist-sympathizer" accusations work. Way to quell rational debate! :thumbup

I'd really love to see some conservatives comment on this position.

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This just in: Many Republicans hold the same view. :thumbup

 

This isn't a ground-breaking view. :thumbup

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No need to be a snatch-face about it. :thumbup

 

And, actually, you are wrong as the majority of conservatives supported and still support this war lock, stock, and barrel. I'm not talking about the "yeah, we are there, let's at least try to finish the goal." I'm talking about the "yeah, I'd go in there again if we had the chance to go back in time."

No need to be a snatch-face about it.

 

And, actually, you are wrong as the majority of conservatives supported and still support this war lock, stock, and barrel. I'm not talking about the "yeah, we are there, let's at least try to finish the goal." I'm talking about the "yeah, I'd go in there again if we had the chance to go back in time."

 

 

Just how you accuse Accord of saying most liberals are anti-troop, you are accusing most conservatives of being pro-war. Could be true, but where are you getting this information? Is there a poll?

No need to be a snatch-face about it.?

 

And, actually, you are wrong as the majority of conservatives supported and still support this war lock, stock, and barrel. I'm not talking about the "yeah, we are there, let's at least try to finish the goal." I'm talking about the "yeah, I'd go in there again if we had the chance to go back in time."

 

 

Just how you accuse Accord of saying most liberals are anti-troop, you are accusing most conservatives of being pro-war. Could be true, but where are you getting this information? Is there a poll?

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I don't have to accuse him of anything, every other post is relates to some nutty, far-left people doing some real or trumped-up action that attacks troops.

 

I could find polls if you like, but and I'm well aware that there are many, many anti-war conservatives. I have many among my friends and my family. However, the right-wing noise machine is still solidly in favor of this war and it follows that their audience is still in their camp.

One of the dumbest threads of the month Accord Shamrock. Bravo.

I'd really love to see some conservatives comment on this position.

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This just in: Many Republicans hold the same view. :thumbup

 

This isn't a ground-breaking view. :thumbup

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No need to be a snatch-face about it. :thumbup

 

And, actually, you are wrong as the majority of conservatives supported and still support this war lock, stock, and barrel. I'm not talking about the "yeah, we are there, let's at least try to finish the goal." I'm talking about the "yeah, I'd go in there again if we had the chance to go back in time."

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I said many not majority. :thumbup

I'd really love to see some conservatives comment on this position.

913372[/snapback]

 

This just in: Many Republicans hold the same view. :thumbup

 

This isn't a ground-breaking view. :thumbup

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No need to be a snatch-face about it. :thumbup

 

And, actually, you are wrong as the majority of conservatives supported and still support this war lock, stock, and barrel. I'm not talking about the "yeah, we are there, let's at least try to finish the goal." I'm talking about the "yeah, I'd go in there again if we had the chance to go back in time."

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I said many not majority. :thumbup

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Sigh. I feel like I'm dealing with elementary kids here. I respect you a helluva lot more than Accordion and Passion Fruit, but c'mon. I posted this not to state the obvious, MB, but to show that not all those against the War in Iraq are timid pacifists. Capeesh? :mischief2

All I am saying is that if you were to write a research paper on public support for the Iraqi war and you made statements like you have made in this thread your professor would not be very kind with the grading. Not to say that there isn't a great deal of conservatives who support the war (one could easily assume that there is), but generally you need to put some numbers behind a statement like that if you want to convince anyone, especially on a message board. I mean, you having lots of friends that hold certain views does not tell me anything at all. If you truly want to have a political discussion, post numbers and what not, else we are just arguing over opinions, and that's fine but don't expect anything fruitful to come out of it.

 

Just playing devil's advocate here.

All I am saying is that if you were to write a research paper on public support for the Iraqi war and you made statements like you have made in this thread your professor would not be very kind with the grading. Not to say that there isn't a great deal of conservatives who support the war (one could easily assume that there is), but generally you need to put some numbers behind a statement like that if you want to convince anyone, especially on a message board. I mean, you having lots of friends that hold certain views does not tell me anything at all. If you truly want to have a political discussion, post numbers and what not, else we are just arguing over opinions, and that's fine but don't expect anything fruitful to come out of it.

 

Just playing devil's advocate here.

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Fair enough Sandro. There are about 40-50 polls on www.pollingreport.com from every source imaginable concerning the War in Iraq. Most of the numbers vary between 55-65% against whichever policy (should we have gone?, How is Bush handling?, etc.) is being polled. I'm just making, what I think, is a small leap to assuming that the majority of the "against" votes are left-leaners, while the majority of the "for" votes are right-leaners. Take a look at those polls and tell me whether my logic jump was too big. Maybe it is.