An American flag that purportedly flew over the Pentagon on Sept. 11 was burned by a man who said he wanted to end questions of authenticity over the banner he bought for $25,000.

 

John A. Andrews II, a general contractor and developer, successfully bid for the flag on eBay and planned to fly it over the new Newton-Lee Elementary School in Ashburn, named for two passengers on American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon.

 

But amid continuing questions, Andrews burned the nylon flag Wednesday.

 

"Since the purchase of this flag, the controversy over its legitimacy has continued," said Andrews, Loudoun's school board chairman. "For the victims' families and the community as a whole, it's a small price to pay to put the issue to rest."

 

Andrews said the school investigated the continuing doubts raised about the authenticity "and in all our research we couldn't find anyone who could swear it was there."

 

With the help of two Boy Scouts and the Loudoun County Boy Scout commissioner, Andrews and others held the flag as the stars were cut from the stripes and the banner was dissected into four pieces. The sections were then tossed into a fire in a metal drum filled with oak logs.

 

The disposal followed one of several methods outlined in Scout protocol.

 

In March, David Nicholson offered the flag, he said, to help secure his family's future. He has kidney cancer.

 

Nicholson, who had owned an auction house in rural Orange, said he got the flag in 2002 from a friend who worked construction and said the flag was flying atop one of his company's cranes at the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001.

 

An initial eBay auction drew a successful bid of $371,300, but the bidder would not honor the sale because of questions about its authenticity raised by Facchina Construction Co., which denied having a flag flying from a crane during the attack.

 

Contacted Thursday, Nicholson said of the flag burning, "I don't agree with it, but it's a free country.

 

"I would have liked to have this flag back but I'm fighting this cancer."

 

Nicholson, who said his cancer has progressed to Stage 4, said an Oct. 27 court date has been scheduled in his lawsuit against Facchina Construction. He is seeking the difference between the initial bid for the flag and the $25,000 bid by Andrews.

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0805/254674.html

I don't get it. Why's this a news item?

Surely there are (well, were) a number of ways to prove it's authenticity.

He paid for it, let him do with it what he will.

 

What always makes me laugh is when those idiots go "Hey, buddy! My grandfather/uncle DIED FOR THAT FLAG!" I'm always like, "Really? Huh, I got mine from Wal-Mart. And they got it from Indonesia, so... Technically they didn't."

 

It's just a symbol. Yes, people should probably have BETTER reasons for burning flags, like discontent with the government, but if he wants to burn the thing, do it.

He paid for it, let him do with it what he will.

 

What always makes me laugh is when those idiots go "Hey, buddy! My grandfather/uncle DIED FOR THAT FLAG!" I'm always like, "Really? Huh, I got mine from Wal-Mart. And they got it from Indonesia, so... Technically they didn't."

 

It's just a symbol. Yes, people should probably have BETTER reasons for burning flags, like discontent with the government, but if he wants to burn the thing, do it.

916300[/snapback]

 

What always makes me laugh are idiots who think discontent with the government is a good reason to burn the flag .

 

From your first statement, it sounds like burning flags is something you do often. And also that you have the logic of a two year old where you take everything in a literal sense.

 

 

---

 

Anyways, when a flag is properly disposed of, like what this guy in the article did, there's absolutley nothing wrong with it at all. If the flag was authentic and actually there are 9/11, there is no way he would have destroyed it over a little controversy in some small town, he would have found a way to prove it's authenticity, like having the fibers analyzed for trace amounts of dust that was present on 9/11 or something along those lines.

So, A) you called me an idiot and B) you don't believe in the freedom to express discontent to burn the flag.

 

I don't know how to counter A, because I could easily troll your past posts and make you look stupid, but that'd be a waste of my time, so I'll counter B...

 

It's called freedom baby. Look into it. It's a right, again and again that we DO have. I don't care about a damn flag. At all. At all. It doesn't mean anything. It's a peice of cloth. That's it.

 

What I care about are people and actual working governments. I'd pee on a flag before I'd walk over anyone's right to protest. My dad was a Vietnam vet and my grandfather was in World War 2 so don't act all gay and pretend I'm living in some fantasy world where I hate America or "hate it so much here" I'd burn flags at the drop of a hat.

 

A flag is just a flag, it's not America and no one's hurt when you do it. I haven't burnt a flag in my life, but thanks for makig that assumption.

 

All that and I didn't even have to namecall. WINNER! Thanks for handing me that one.

So, A) you called me an idiot and B) you don't believe in the freedom to express discontent to burn the flag.

 

I don't know how to counter A, because I could easily troll your past posts and make you look stupid, but that'd be a waste of my time, so I'll counter B...

 

It's called freedom baby. Look into it. It's a right, again and again that we DO have. I don't care about a damn flag. At all. At all. It doesn't mean anything. It's a peice of cloth. That's it.

 

What I care about are people and actual working governments. I'd pee on a flag before I'd walk over anyone's right to protest. My dad was a Vietnam vet and my grandfather was in World War 2 so don't act all gay and pretend I'm living in some fantasy world where I hate America or "hate it so much here" I'd burn flags at the drop of a hat.

 

A flag is just a flag, it's not America and no one's hurt when you do it. I haven't burnt a flag in my life, but thanks for makig that assumption.

 

All that and I didn't even have to namecall. WINNER! Thanks for handing me that one.

916909[/snapback]

 

 

You called everyone who actually cares about the flag an idiot, so explain to me how that is any different from me calling everyone who doesn't care about the flag an idiot? I replied with a simple play on your words nearly verbatim.

 

It's amazing how people of this generation can have such little respect for the flag. This entitlement generation always spouts about how they have the freedom or right to do this and that, blah blah blah, but then it's perfectly okay for them to turn around and burn the one symbol that represents all of that, you even just did it in your post. Fortunately for them, their stupidity is protected by the constitution.

 

If you truly feel that the American flag means absolutely nothing and is just a stupid piece of cloth from walmart, that's very sad. It doesn't matter what political party you belong to or who you voted for. I think this is one issue here on MB.com that almost all the liberals and conservatives will agree on, at least i'd hope so.

 

As far as you burning a flag, you said "when those idiots go... ...I'm always like..." Your choice of words leads anyone who reads it to think that you've burned a flag and were confronted by someone in the process, multiple times in fact. But yes, just a simple poor choice of words on your part... if you wanted to get your point across without implying you've burned any flags, you could have said "I would be like" instead of "I'm always like"......... but it's silly to argue semantics on the internet so I don't even know why i've typed this much about it.

 

And you proclaiming yourself as the winner of the argument... feel free to put it in your signature if you're so proud. "I beat accord in a debate to prove how it's good to burn flags"... riiiight.

The ball's in your court to prove it isn't just a peice of cloth. To me it is. I don't care at all about a flag.

 

I care more about ideas and expression and freedom of thought. An idea is more powerful than any symbol. And if burning that same symbol gets the idea across, than that's fine.

 

The flag DOES NOT represent our freedoms. It represents the plot of land under which the government rules. This is ours, here's our flag to prove it. I would say that white supremacist groups, who I HATE, represent more freedom than any flag. At least them you can either listen to, not listen to, refute, etc., etc.

The ball's in your court to prove it isn't just a peice of cloth.? To me it is.? I don't care at all about a flag.

 

I care more about ideas and expression and freedom of thought.? An idea is more powerful than any symbol.? And if burning that same symbol gets the idea across, than that's fine.

 

The flag DOES NOT represent our freedoms.? It represents the plot of land under which the government rules.? This is ours, here's our flag to prove it.? I would say that white supremacist groups, who I HATE, represent more freedom than any flag.? At least them you can either listen to, not listen to, refute, etc., etc.

917287[/snapback]

So the original 13 starred flag was made because Tom, George and John just wanted to mark their land...

 

Dying men held fast to their flags on the battlefield because they didn't want to use their free hand to grab a gun in resistence.

 

Declaration of Independence is just another piece of paper, right? I have plenty of paper. I can write the same exact words, and it'll be just as significant...

 

 

Liberty, justice and independence have nothing to do with our flag...It's just 'cloth'.

The words are more important than the paper it's written on. You're right, good point Lefty.

 

How does the flag make us any more free again? A flag. Make us. Free?

The words are more important than the paper it's written on.? You're right, good point Lefty.

 

How does the flag make us any more free again?? A flag.? Make us.? Free?

917296[/snapback]

 

Wow, I learned about symbolism in my 8th grade English class.

 

 

Where were you??

 

I find it hard to believe that you believe the words you are writing. It sounds more like a pathetic attempt to win out an argument rather than dissuading your opponent. THere is no way in hell you are going to convince anyone that the American flag has no significance to the people of the United States.

 

And even worse, you speak so lightly of the Declaration. That's rediculous.

The words are more important than the paper it's written on.? You're right, good point Lefty.

 

How does the flag make us any more free again?? A flag.? Make us.? Free?

917296[/snapback]

 

Wow, I learned about symbolism in my 8th grade English class.

 

 

Where were you??

917311[/snapback]

 

I know what symbolism is. Trust me.

 

Also, our own government allows us to burn flags. We have that right.

 

You still didn't answer how a flag makes us more free. You did say that. So, how does it again? Your answer can't be so stupid as "symbolism" can it?

The words are more important than the paper it's written on.? You're right, good point Lefty.

 

How does the flag make us any more free again?? A flag.? Make us.? Free?

917296[/snapback]

 

Wow, I learned about symbolism in my 8th grade English class.

 

 

Where were you??

917311[/snapback]

 

I know what symbolism is. Trust me.

 

Also, our own government allows us to burn flags. We have that right.

 

You still didn't answer how a flag makes us more free. You did say that. So, how does it again? Your answer can't be so stupid as "symbolism" can it?

917313[/snapback]

Who is arguing that a physical object can make us more free???

 

We are talking about what the flag symbolizes! You are going off on a tangent, sir. Better stop the bsing and get around to your real argument--because you are making things up as you go along.

We fight and sometimes die for what we 'believe in' (get it?). Throughout history, this has been the common theme for existence. The flag is ONE OF MANY symbolical references to the independence and liberty that we have in the US. It just happens to be the most recognizable, being situated atop the highest and most prolific buildings/monuments in our country.

So, if the government sucks we shouldn't speak up about it? If they're no longer representing the people under which they are the governing body we should just shut up and take it? Burning a flag allows us to burn a symbol and *gasp* symbolizes an individuals discontent with the government.

 

If you're interested check this out, it chronicles both sides of the argument:

 

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/index2.html

 

Flag burning falls under freedom of speech. My point is, burning a flag doesn't hurt anyone and no one's making you watch. So, what's the big deal? Not one argument has rang true as to why it's sooooo "bad."

So, if the government sucks we shouldn't speak up about it? If they're no longer representing the people under which they are the governing body we should just shut up and take it? Burning a flag allows us to burn a symbol and *gasp* symbolizes an individuals discontent with the government.

 

If you're interested check this out, it chronicles both sides of the argument:

 

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/index2.html

 

Flag burning falls under freedom of speech. My point is, burning a flag doesn't hurt anyone and no one's making you watch. So, what's the big deal? Not one argument has rang true as to why it's sooooo "bad."

917321[/snapback]

I actually don't give a crap about someone burning the flag. It belonged to him, and evidently wasn't important to him. If it really was the flag he claimed it to be, he wouldn't have done that.

 

My argument was for the purpose of the flag and its importance. I don't like to see anyone belittling such a significant symbol of our country.

Then don't watch. Is someone MAKING you watch a burning flag?

 

If you don't care about people burning the flag then why post at all? Doesn't make sense... It's almost as if... I don't know, if you're willing to argue for a thing, you DO care.

 

Not giving a crap and saying it's wrong to burn a flag are two different arguments. Contradictory arguments.

 

That being said, I'm all for free speech and burning the flag is a part of that, so... Burn 'em if you got 'em. It's a free country and that's why I love it.

Then don't watch. Is someone MAKING you watch a burning flag?

 

If you don't care about people burning the flag then why post at all? Doesn't make sense... It's almost as if... I don't know, if you're willing to argue for a thing, you DO care.

 

Not giving a crap and saying it's wrong to burn a flag are two different arguments. Contradictory arguments.

 

That being said, I'm all for free speech and burning the flag is a part of that, so... Burn 'em if you got 'em. It's a free country and that's why I love it.

917325[/snapback]

You are nitpicking. If you had read correctly, you'd understand that my point is this:

 

The flag was obviously not the same flag he claimed it to be. If it were the '911 flag', then its significance would be more substantial. Regardless of whether you agree or not, MOST PEOPLE 'need' a visual object to represent things such as 'freedom, justice..etc'. The American Flag is a powerful such object.

 

Stop denying the validity of the argument, because you are running in circles. The flag is a symbol of American freedom to a large amount of people (myself included).

 

I didn't speak of the burning instance until that last post, and I replied because I noticed that you were trying to expand the original topic into your own thoughts toward the insignificance of the flag.

 

This is all.

 

Get over yourself.

Sad.

 

I already said earlier this guy did burn the flag for a stupid reason. And yes, I did expand the topic, because people are shocked. I wasn't the only one arguing for/against in here, if you would have noticed.

 

Also, ad hominem attacks really make your argument less compelling. Anyways, I'm done until someone with valid arguments can prove me otherwise. I just don't see the point.

 

I would also suggest you read up on some of the influential works our system is based on, basically John Mill and Locke and Hobbes so you at least have some idea about basic freedoms, expression and personal liberty.

Sad.

 

I already said earlier this guy did burn the flag for a stupid reason. And yes, I did expand the topic, because people are shocked. I wasn't the only one arguing for/against in here, if you would have noticed.

 

Also, ad hominem attacks really make your argument less compelling. Anyways, I'm done until someone with valid arguments can prove me otherwise. I just don't see the point.

 

I would also suggest you read up on some of the influential works our system is based on, basically John Mill and Locke and Hobbes so you at least have some idea about basic freedoms, expression and personal liberty.

917328[/snapback]

You keep reprimanding me about something I haven't even touched on! I keep telling you that my only point is about the importance of the flag! Stop trying to teach me a lesson that I don't need. I don't care if you feel someone needs to fulfill your requirements for a 'worthy argument', nor do I intend to continue this back-and-forth contest with you. It is evident that you feel there is no equal for you, so let yourself feel satisfied to know that I'm going to bed without further incident.

 

The flag of the United States is significant to the people of our nation. THis is all I am saying. If you want to look further into that phrase, be my guest. Stay up all night and dissect an argument that isn't there. Continue using references to 16th century scientists and philosophers. It sounds terrific, but utterly outplayed.

 

Good night.

The ball's in your court to prove it isn't just a peice of cloth. To me it is. I don't care at all about a flag.

 

I care more about ideas and expression and freedom of thought. An idea is more powerful than any symbol. And if burning that same symbol gets the idea across, than that's fine.

 

The flag DOES NOT represent our freedoms. It represents the plot of land under which the government rules. This is ours, here's our flag to prove it. I would say that white supremacist groups, who I HATE, represent more freedom than any flag. At least them you can either listen to, not listen to, refute, etc., etc.

917287[/snapback]

 

You can't honestly believe that crap you just typed. If you truly feel that way, wow, just wow.

 

I'm not getting into an argument with over whether the flag is just a piece of cloth or not, you are absolutely 100% wrong and it is preposterous that you actually believe what you believe and that the flag represents nothing.

 

You were probably one of those losers in school that refused to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance every morning.

 

Totally pathetic.

Shamrock hates America because he didn't reply in this thread!

 

:plain

The idea might be stronger than the symbol but the symbol represents the idea.

Shamrock hates America because he didn't reply in this thread!

 

:plain

917603[/snapback]

Why must you blow it way out of proportion? You've gotta have some sort of brain defect.

Shamrock hates America because he didn't reply in this thread!

 

:plain

917603[/snapback]

Why must you blow it way out of proportion? You've gotta have some sort of brain defect.

917748[/snapback]

 

If you think what I just posted is blowing it way out of proportion, then certainly i'm not the one with the brain defect :thumbup .

The ball's in your court to prove it isn't just a peice of cloth.? To me it is.? I don't care at all about a flag.

 

I care more about ideas and expression and freedom of thought.? An idea is more powerful than any symbol.? And if burning that same symbol gets the idea across, than that's fine.

 

The flag DOES NOT represent our freedoms.? It represents the plot of land under which the government rules.? This is ours, here's our flag to prove it.? I would say that white supremacist groups, who I HATE, represent more freedom than any flag.? At least them you can either listen to, not listen to, refute, etc., etc.

917287[/snapback]

 

You can't honestly believe that crap you just typed. If you truly feel that way, wow, just wow.

 

I'm not getting into an argument with over whether the flag is just a piece of cloth or not, you are absolutely 100% wrong and it is preposterous that you actually believe what you believe and that the flag represents nothing.

 

You were probably one of those losers in school that refused to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance every morning.

 

Totally pathetic.

917595[/snapback]

 

Thanks for alienating any Jehova's witnesses.

 

I still say it's a peice of cloth. It's a symbol, yes. But does that make it this great grand thing? Hmmmm... I'm not so sure. And I did recite the pledge, because I believe in the ideals under which this country was founded. Those same ideals that allow for free speech, under which flag burning falls under.

 

And I didn't even resort to namecalling you non-American. Also, you've attacked my position without stating your own. So, nut up or shut up. Then I can attack YOUR position and call you crazy names. That's how a debate works.