Not showing up just makes it easier to move.

 

If you don't show up, Loria and Samson win.

 

Well, I guess if you do show up, the win too, so it's a catch-22. But, the more you support the team (f*** ownership) the harder it is for MLB to allow relocation.

 

If you show up, Loria Samson and Huzinga win. They get your money, Huizinga gets your parking fee and you get labeled a bad fan by the media.

 

If you don't show up, Loria and Samson have less money to take to Vegas. Huizinga doesnt really care and you still get labeled as a bad fan.

 

Its a lose-lose situation unless you show up to cheer the visiting team.

Why do you even care what the media calls you? If you're showing up and supporting the club, you're obviously not at fault. If not, the media are dopes anyway.

 

 

Yourself included? You've been bitching since September and well before that. You've never come to terms with this. You fail to see the reason behind their moves. You leap at every opportunity to preach your Season Ticket Holders Revolution mantra, whether it be the ticket prices or the service or the moves made. You are Chicken Little!

 

 

What are you talking about?

 

I thought, as recently as yesterday, that there would be no more gutting. That Castillo and LoDuca would stay, that we'd try to put veterans into this rebuilding process.

 

Yeah, I'm not happy, but go find one season ticket holder who is happy right now, and then find one who doesn't feel that they'd been mislead.

If you didn't see the writing on the wall when you renewed your tickets (in September, because you're such a passionate fan you still hoped the Marlins could make the playoffs), you are blind. The city hasn't been talking to the Marlins in months. The hurricanes were exhausting the state's budget. The county and Marlins could find no one to help. And the club was completing its second season limping towards .500 with scant attendance with high priced stars. The light at the end of the tunnel was dimming. Loria had to do something to avoid being trapped under the pile of rocks of bankruptcy and deceit. Else both he and the Marlins would be stuck. The moves were made to give the club a few years to decide the fate of the club. And while there may be some backlash from it, it won't be any more significant than the impact of re-signing and investing in free agents the past three years have had towards fixing the team's off-field problems. This is where it gets hard. This is where the Marlins need our support. This is make or break time for the local politicians to decide if they want a real baseball team with a real owner who has shown he cares about winning or if they want to keep good "relations" with Huizenga and the some notable industries.

Any fan of baseball should see any game that Willis starts.

well I think this thread pretty much reflects the attitude of most people in SouthFLA and I don't mean you guys that are actually loyal fans. Bottom line is SouthFLA just doesn;t have BASEBALL fans. But we have plenty of bandwagon fans, I mean 60k+ for playoff games yet near dead last during the regular season. LOL..... I can't wait for this team to leave SouthFLA so that at least I know they will have a longterm home somehwere in their own stadium.

 

Any fan of baseball should see any game that Willis starts.

 

 

 

Amen..... I have lived in Miami most of my life and just recently had to move out of state. But I still make roadtrips to my nearest ballparks to see the team I love and the game I love. HAving them playing somewhere else will not make a diffrence to me. At least maybe I can stop hearing about how our fanbase is a joke.

This Marlins organization is Bipolar.. We win the WS (High) then have a Fire sale (Low).. Win a WS (high) then have a fire sale (low)..

Not showing up just makes it easier to move.

 

If you don't show up, Loria and Samson win.

 

Well, I guess if you do show up, the win too, so it's a catch-22. But, the more you support the team (f*** ownership) the harder it is for MLB to allow relocation.

 

If you show up, Loria Samson and Huzinga win. They get your money, Huizinga gets your parking fee and you get labeled a bad fan by the media.

 

If you don't show up, Loria and Samson have less money to take to Vegas. Huizinga doesnt really care and you still get labeled as a bad fan.

 

Its a lose-lose situation unless you show up to cheer the visiting team.

Why do you even care what the media calls you? If you're showing up and supporting the club, you're obviously not at fault. If not, the media are dopes anyway.

 

 

Yourself included? You've been bitching since September and well before that. You've never come to terms with this. You fail to see the reason behind their moves. You leap at every opportunity to preach your Season Ticket Holders Revolution mantra, whether it be the ticket prices or the service or the moves made. You are Chicken Little!

 

 

What are you talking about?

 

I thought, as recently as yesterday, that there would be no more gutting. That Castillo and LoDuca would stay, that we'd try to put veterans into this rebuilding process.

 

Yeah, I'm not happy, but go find one season ticket holder who is happy right now, and then find one who doesn't feel that they'd been mislead.

If you didn't see the writing on the wall when you renewed your tickets (in September, because you're such a passionate fan you still hoped the Marlins could make the playoffs), you are blind. The city hasn't been talking to the Marlins in months. The hurricanes were exhausting the state's budget. The county and Marlins could find no one to help. And the club was completing its second season limping towards .500 with scant attendance with high priced stars. The light at the end of the tunnel was dimming. Loria had to do something to avoid being trapped under the pile of rocks of bankruptcy and deceit. Else both he and the Marlins would be stuck. The moves were made to give the club a few years to decide the fate of the club. And while there may be some backlash from it, it won't be any more significant than the impact of re-signing and investing in free agents the past three years have had towards fixing the team's off-field problems. This is where it gets hard. This is where the Marlins need our support. This is make or break time for the local politicians to decide if they want a real baseball team with a real owner who has shown he cares about winning or if they want to keep good "relations" with Huizenga and the some notable industries.

Well, I don't think I'm blind but I do believe there will be a lot of angry season ticket holders (and I'm one of them). I did expect to see some players traded and a payroll cut. I did not expect a full dismantling. If Josh Beckett was shocked he was traded why should we have foreseen this crap?

 

The fact that I support this team (and will until the end) doesn't change the fact that whether or not I chose to pay major league prices for a minor league team should have been my decision.

I'm still looking forward to enjoying a few nice Florida evenings watching a baseball game with my sons next year. If the guys can pull off a win...that will be a bonus. I'm as disappointed as anyone all this has happened. But I'll try to look at the bright side and enjoy baseball in South Florida for as long as I can.

Loria has his ring. Unless there were a way to win another (although he'd probably want to do it when he buys the Yankees from the Steinbrenners) he's a businessman and isn't going to pay $60 million year after year only to miss the playoffs. Unless the team is able to make a full run at it, expect a lot of nothing.

 

You are the consumer here and are the source of revenue for Loria's business venture. Don't pay top dollar to see games next year - if attendance numbers are similar, he'll keep on cutting costs.

 

If people were willing to pay the same price for the same amount of two different quality products, something would be totally out of whack.

 

That said, if the fans don't come, the team will leave. But that could happen regardless.

Do you want to blame anybody? Just look in the mirror for who to blame! That's right, this apethetic, excuse making fan base that either does not exist or does not care about baseball! If I were Loria I'd be doing the same exact thing. Imagine if I owned a baseball team that just won the World Series, and instead of repeating the mistakes of 1997, I actually bring the bulk of the team back for another run. In ANY OTHER FREAKIN' CITY in the major leagues, I would expect a boom in attendance. Instead, here in South Florida we see only 20,000 per game. And don't give me the bull$hit excuse of "our attendance went up xxx% since we were so low to begin with." BULLCRAP!! Any other "MAJOR LEAGUE CITY" would have seen at least 28,000 on a Wednesday night game against the Brewers after winning a World Championship and a consistent 40,000 on any weeked game. But no, I remember being there on Saturday nights in 2004 and getting "excited" because 25,000 showed up for a game against the Padres, then you read the box scores the next day in the newspapers and see every other city (except for Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay) have 38,000 and more at their Saturday games.

 

For the sake of comparison, let's look at the Los Angeles/California/Anaheim/Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. Here is a team that went through their own version of a "fire sale" in the early 1990s. I remember when they went to a youth movement with the likes of Tim Salmon and Jim Edmonds, and J.T. Snow. Their market is comparable to ours (especially when you factor in that the Dodgers take a majority of the market share). Orange County is a commuter county with no mass transit and the stadium is NOT located in a downtown area (as a matter of fact, there is no downtown Orange County). In 2001, the Angels averaged 24,702 per game and ranked 20th in the major leagues (barely hitting 2,000,000). In 2002, they make their run at a world championship and their attendance rises to an average of 28,463 per game (2,305,547 total fans). In 2003, in their post World Series haze the Angels spike up to average 37,791 per game (3,061,094) almost matching the Dodgers in attendance! All this while the team was for sale and there was an uncertainty about the product (remember, Arte Moreno didn't come in until midway through the 2003 season). Further, the Angels were not a playoff team in 2003. Along comes 2004 for the Angels, and what do we see attendance wise: an average of 41,675 per game (3,375,677 total -- to trail ONLY the Yankees and Dodgers). Finally, this past season, the Angels averaged 42,033 per game (3,404,686 total -- trailing ONLY the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cardinals). So in this small timeframe, the Angels went from averaging 24,702 a game to 42,033 per game, almost doubling attendance in sheer numbers. They do this in a crappy stadium, that is accessible only by freeway (I've been to Angels Field, the surrounding area is quite similar to Dolphins Stadium, and driving in LA/OC is just as bad, if not worse, than driving in South Florida), in a metropolitan area that is similar if not identical to South Florida! What does that say about baseball down here? Simple, we don't have the interest in averaging 42,000 per game, PERIOD!

 

If I were Loria and I just won a World Series where 70,000 show up for a game, then I would expect at least 35,000 to 36,000 average the next season! So if I spend all this money and only get 17,000 to 20,000 to come to a game, what's the point in money away. Might as well save some money and cater to the 3,000 total hardcore baseball fans in town, or move to a city that will get me 35,000 a night.

 

I'll still go to games next year because you can count me in as one of the 3,000 hardcore fans that support this team with my wallet. I'll enjoy the leg room and shoulder room at the stadium next year. I'll enjoy being able to stroll through an empty Fan Fest this year. I'll enjoy seeing the young kids develop because I love baseball!!! Unfortunately, there just isn't enough of people like me here to support baseball. So, in two years when the "Charlotte Knights" are born, I won't be shocked or surprised, I'll just see it as the inevitable result of an apathetic fan base.

 

Just bringin' the facts...

This is the first trade that actually hurts...

 

 

Agreed.

Do you want to blame anybody? Just look in the mirror for who to blame! That's right, this apethetic, excuse making fan base that either does not exist or does not care about baseball! If I were Loria I'd be doing the same exact thing. Imagine if I owned a baseball team that just won the World Series, and instead of repeating the mistakes of 1997, I actually bring the bulk of the team back for another run. In ANY OTHER FREAKIN' CITY in the major leagues, I would expect a boom in attendance. Instead, here in South Florida we see only 20,000 per game. And don't give me the bull$hit excuse of "our attendance went up xxx% since we were so low to begin with." BULLCRAP!! Any other "MAJOR LEAGUE CITY" would have seen at least 28,000 on a Wednesday night game against the Brewers after winning a World Championship and a consistent 40,000 on any weeked game. But no, I remember being there on Saturday nights in 2004 and getting "excited" because 25,000 showed up for a game against the Padres, then you read the box scores the next day in the newspapers and see every other city (except for Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Tampa Bay) have 38,000 and more at their Saturday games.

 

For the sake of comparison, let's look at the Los Angeles/California/Anaheim/Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. Here is a team that went through their own version of a "fire sale" in the early 1990s. I remember when they went to a youth movement with the likes of Tim Salmon and Jim Edmonds, and J.T. Snow. Their market is comparable to ours (especially when you factor in that the Dodgers take a majority of the market share). Orange County is a commuter county with no mass transit and the stadium is NOT located in a downtown area (as a matter of fact, there is no downtown Orange County). In 2001, the Angels averaged 24,702 per game and ranked 20th in the major leagues (barely hitting 2,000,000). In 2002, they make their run at a world championship and their attendance rises to an average of 28,463 per game (2,305,547 total fans). In 2003, in their post World Series haze the Angels spike up to average 37,791 per game (3,061,094) almost matching the Dodgers in attendance! All this while the team was for sale and there was an uncertainty about the product (remember, Arte Moreno didn't come in until midway through the 2003 season). Further, the Angels were not a playoff team in 2003. Along comes 2004 for the Angels, and what do we see attendance wise: an average of 41,675 per game (3,375,677 total -- to trail ONLY the Yankees and Dodgers). Finally, this past season, the Angels averaged 42,033 per game (3,404,686 total -- trailing ONLY the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cardinals). So in this small timeframe, the Angels went from averaging 24,702 a game to 42,033 per game, almost doubling attendance in sheer numbers. They do this in a crappy stadium, that is accessible only by freeway (I've been to Angels Field, the surrounding area is quite similar to Dolphins Stadium, and driving in LA/OC is just as bad, if not worse, than driving in South Florida), in a metropolitan area that is similar if not identical to South Florida! What does that say about baseball down here? Simple, we don't have the interest in averaging 42,000 per game, PERIOD!

 

If I were Loria and I just won a World Series where 70,000 show up for a game, then I would expect at least 35,000 to 36,000 average the next season! So if I spend all this money and only get 17,000 to 20,000 to come to a game, what's the point in money away. Might as well save some money and cater to the 3,000 total hardcore baseball fans in town, or move to a city that will get me 35,000 a night.

 

I'll still go to games next year because you can count me in as one of the 3,000 hardcore fans that support this team with my wallet. I'll enjoy the leg room and shoulder room at the stadium next year. I'll enjoy being able to stroll through an empty Fan Fest this year. I'll enjoy seeing the young kids develop because I love baseball!!! Unfortunately, there just isn't enough of people like me here to support baseball. So, in two years when the "Charlotte Knights" are born, I won't be shocked or surprised, I'll just see it as the inevitable result of an apathetic fan base.

 

Just bringin' the facts...

 

 

Like you, I'll still be going out to watch the Marlins next season. However, I am sick of hearing it is all the fans' fault that there is so few coming out to see the games.

 

This team has been in existence for a little over 10 years in an area that contains many transplants from the Northeast and other parts of the country who already had favorite teams when they moved here. If you want to convert some of these people and turn other "natives" into fans, you should treat this fledgling fan base right.

 

That doesn't include conducting fire sales ever 5 or so years and being told that you, being a Marlins fan, are nothing but a joke and a fair-weather fan at best. Not to mention the fact this organizations idea of marketing is touting their stadium as one of the worst in baseball, if not the worst, and how crappy it is to come out to a game because weather is terrible, the seating is terrible, etc.

 

All of this is to say that the Marlins front office's over the years have done a terrible job of trying to build up a loyal fan base that will come out to games regularly. Things were starting to look up in recent years. But since getting a new stadium in South Florida has not been going as quickly as Loria wanted, he says its time to move. Yeah, who could have seen that coming. My question is has any fan base of an existing MLB been as abused as Marlins fans have over the years?

If I hear one more person blame the fans, I'm going to scream. Does it make sense to anyone else why a team that has such apathy and ill-will around it would degrade its fans and its stadium at every chance it got? Would you readily give money to someone who told you that you were the root of everything that went wrong over the past two years, and would you pay to sit in a ballpark that its own tenant calls substandard?

 

Firstly, Loria knew damn well what he was getting himself into, don't write checks you can't afford. The fans didn't hand out the $52 million to Delgado, Loria did, same with the Lowell and LoDuca and Castillo deals which the franchise apparently can't afford. Did the low attendance hurt? Sure, but at the same time, it isn't as if the apathetic fan-base came out of nowhere...it's irresponsible to assume that overnight the bridges that were burned by the first firesale, threats of contraction and the stigma of being a Marlins fan would be corrected instantly by one free agent signing.

 

When's the last time you ever heard a business where the venue and the consumer were to blame for a business poorly run by individuals with no ability to look a mere year into the future and realize they'll be on the hook for more money than they can realistically afford because of contracts they negotiated? Sure sounds like the fans' fault that basic addition is something seriously lacking from Beinfest's "creative" ability.

 

Every time I complain about the front office (love the team, hate the organization) I'm always told "what, two world series titles isn't good enough for you?" Yeah, sure, but two firesales is too much for me, or for any other fan, to have to put up with.

If you didn't see the writing on the wall when you renewed your tickets (in September, because you're such a passionate fan you still hoped the Marlins could make the playoffs), you are blind. The city hasn't been talking to the Marlins in months. The hurricanes were exhausting the state's budget. The county and Marlins could find no one to help. And the club was completing its second season limping towards .500 with scant attendance with high priced stars. The light at the end of the tunnel was dimming. Loria had to do something to avoid being trapped under the pile of rocks of bankruptcy and deceit. Else both he and the Marlins would be stuck. The moves were made to give the club a few years to decide the fate of the club. And while there may be some backlash from it, it won't be any more significant than the impact of re-signing and investing in free agents the past three years have had towards fixing the team's off-field problems. This is where it gets hard. This is where the Marlins need our support. This is make or break time for the local politicians to decide if they want a real baseball team with a real owner who has shown he cares about winning or if they want to keep good "relations" with Huizenga and the some notable industries.

 

Well, I don't think I'm blind but I do believe there will be a lot of angry season ticket holders (and I'm one of them). I did expect to see some players traded and a payroll cut. I did not expect a full dismantling. If Josh Beckett was shocked he was traded why should we have foreseen this crap?

 

The fact that I support this team (and will until the end) doesn't change the fact that whether or not I chose to pay major league prices for a minor league team should have been my decision.

 

 

 

You don't think the club was shocked that they couldn't find a taker for Lowell and Pierre? You don't think they weren't upset when they had to append Beckett onto Lowell's contract? You actually think that was their plan?!? You think they didn't want the stadium deal to be done? You don't think they did everything MLB allowed to get the deal done? You think they wanted all these hurricanes to damage their prosperty and prospects? You think they wanted it to end up like this? No, I can assure you, no rational person would. Thanks to the local officials you and others voted for, all of us are victims. Season ticket holders are victims. Casual fans are victims. Out of town fans are victims. Loria and Samson is a victim.

 

The signs were there. I admit I didn't see them clearly either. But they were there. Most thought there would be a radical resturcturing that at the very least would have seen payroll to drop and the club built around its young core. However there is still hope for this group. And I hope here is there is for them, in the state of Florida.

TSwift25, are you saying Loria knew upon agreeing to take on the Marlins that the casual South Florida Marlin fan was so uninterested in the team that winning a World Series and investing in prestigous talent would not improve attendance or help convince local politicians to support the building of a new ballpark - that is the only way to break out of Huizenga's abusive lease? Because that sounds like the charge you are making. Care to explain?

TSwift25, are you saying Loria knew upon agreeing to take on the Marlins that the casual South Florida Marlin fan was so uninterested in the team that winning a World Series and investing in prestigous talent would not improve attendance or help convince local politicians to support the building of a new ballpark - that is the only way to break out of Huizenga's abusive lease? Because that sounds like the charge you are making. Care to explain?

 

 

Loria knew he was walking in to a market with an apathetic fan-base, a market that turned down two wealthier (and local) ownership groups before him regarding stadium proposals, and an area that despite it's numbers simply does not spend its disposable income on sporting events. And he sure didn't help attendance by having his henchmen berate the stadium at every opportunity and blame the consumer for the financial crunch experienced by contracts negotiated by their front office coming due.

 

That's all I'm saying, Loria knew what the sh*t was before he stepped in it.

The mood in these forums has become increasing depressing to read...so, assuming that the loss of all fan support puts in the last nail in the coffin of the marlins florida, which of the 7 cities mentioned for the new marlins have legitmate shots?

 

(it may be a little early, but if we're gonna be so depressed talking about how the fan support will die away, we might as well be talking about the next baseball town)

After the Castillo trade, I'm convinced Samson is trying to kill fan support.

TSwift25, are you saying Loria knew upon agreeing to take on the Marlins that the casual South Florida Marlin fan was so uninterested in the team that winning a World Series and investing in prestigous talent would not improve attendance or help convince local politicians to support the building of a new ballpark - that is the only way to break out of Huizenga's abusive lease? Because that sounds like the charge you are making. Care to explain?

 

 

Loria knew he was walking in to a market with an apathetic fan-base, a market that turned down two wealthier (and local) ownership groups before him regarding stadium proposals, and an area that despite it's numbers simply does not spend its disposable income on sporting events. And he sure didn't help attendance by having his henchmen berate the stadium at every opportunity and blame the consumer for the financial crunch experienced by contracts negotiated by their front office coming due.

 

That's all I'm saying, Loria knew what the sh*t was before he stepped in it.

So, you're saying the situation is hopeless? Or was there something Loria could have done to make it work? Is there anyone who can? How? If you can not answer these questions, why are you a Marlins fan? Why would you invest your money and time for 81+ games a year? If the situation is that hopeless, why have any tangible loyalty to the club? And where does that disappointment in Loria come from?

So, you're saying the situation is hopeless? Or was there something Loria could have done to make it work? Is there anyone who can? How? If you can not answer these questions, why are you a Marlins fan? Why would you invest your money and time for 81+ games a year? If the situation is that hopeless, why have any tangible loyalty to the club? And where does that disappointment in Loria come from?

 

 

As of right now, yes, the situation is hopeless. Samson is impossible to negotiate with, Loria is apparently not trustworthy and the general idea of the team to only explore Miami and then out of state is foolish. A lot could be remedied if the Marlins simply chose to negotiate with Broward or even Palm Beach.

 

And you know what? I love the Marlins, but I hate the organization. So, just like you can't chose your family, you can't chose the owner of your favorite team...as long as I enjoy baseball, and as long as the Marlins are in South Florida, that's why I'm a fan.

 

And how about this, why should there be anything but disappointment in Loria? You really think he deserves a pat on the back? After the first two trades, it was a situation of "I guess it's a necessary evil" now it's just downright evil and unethical for him to try to win fan support back while fielding a AAA team.

It just seems you have lost hope, hate yourself for it and are directing that anger at people who had little to no part in destroying the prospects you once held dear.

 

Is there anything to suggest that Broward and Palm Beach can fund such a project AND provide the necessary fan base to support the team that a downtown or other market could not?

Is there anything to suggest that Broward and Palm Beach can fund such a project AND provide the necessary fan base to support the team that a downtown or other market could not?

 

 

If all Vegas has going for it is the Las Vegas 51's, Palm Beach and Broward already represent a substantial season ticket holder base, several initiatives to build spring training facilities given their understanding of the importance of the entertainment dollar, and the substantial evidence of northward moving professionals, yes, there is reason to expect that Broward and/or Palm Beach offers a much better base to draw from. Plus, the Vegas stadium thing isn't exactly a run away considering the 51's have been asking for a new stadium for a while now and that isn't going great. Not to say the two run a perfect parallel, but there is one entertainment king in Vegas, and it sure isn't sports (unless, of course, you have money on the game).

I agree with you on Las Vegas, but what about downtown Miami, with its access to the southern suburbs, younger population (thus more likely to be loyal to no team but the Marlins) and a large 9-5 work force? And New Jersey, Orlando, Norfolk, San Antonio, etc.? You can't say the two counties have any of these other locations or markets beat.

 

And that was only one of the questions. Now answer the other one. Because no city gets a professional franchise without putting up hundreds of millions of dollars.

Jersey isn't happening because the Mets, Yankees and Phillies would get a payoff thanks to the Nationals/Orioles precedent. Same for San Antonio and possibly Orlando. Norfolk isn't realistic because, well, it's seemingly Vegas or bust if we're talking an out of state move with this ownership group. Down town Miami's out because the Miami mayor has made it pretty evident a stadium isn't getting built in his city, at least with Samson and Loria at the helm.

And the funding? What funding does Broward and Plam Beach have? Will the hoops to be jumped through be easier than to work out a deal with other clubs or municipalities?

And the funding? What funding does Broward and Plam Beach have? Will the hoops to be jumped through be easier than to work out a deal with other clubs or municipalities?

 

 

A wealthier tax base to draw from. A base that has shown willingness to foot the bill for publically funded entertainment projects (from the Panthers to the spring training and new opera houses and CityPlace).

 

Quite frankly, the yuppi base in those counties ensures that not only is there are larger tax dollar to draw from, but there's more disposable income to throw at ticket prices.

 

And any obstacles that exist in Palm Beach or Broward are the same obstacles that would exist in Vegas, and this is assuming that the casino owners would go a long for the ride, and who here honestly expects them to go quietly?

I see you've thought this over. Have you suggested it to any of your elected officials in Palm Beach County? What did they say?