From everything I've been reading, most of the Lebanese hate Hezbollah almost as much as they hate Israel. They are apparently very angry with Hezbollah, and would like to see them more or less eliminated. Now, obviously, there's going to be a significant proportion of the country that supports Hezbollah, but as there seems to be a prevailing opinion against Hezbollah, I really think Israel is making a huge mistake in continuing to escalate. They should chill out and let the Lebanese try to take care of their own problem for a little while.

 

If the Lebanese are forced to choose between Lebanon and Hezbollah, they will choose Lebanon and do their best to isolate Hezbollah. But if Israel makes this a choice between Hezbollah and Israel, as they seem to be doing, then the people may very well have no choice but to fall on the side of Hezbollah.

Except Hezbollah has some decent representation in the Lebanese parliament, indicating that they have to have some sort of major support among the Lebanese.

I know. I said as much above. I'm talking about a majority here; not every last person in Lebanon.

I know. I said as much above. I'm talking about a majority here; not every last person in Lebanon.

 

 

Israel is a very inelligent nation. They arent attacking civilins, but instead hezbala training camps, housing, and the ways that they get their supplies.

I know. I said as much above. I'm talking about a majority here; not every last person in Lebanon.

 

 

Israel is a very inelligent nation. They arent attacking civilins, but instead hezbala training camps, housing, and the ways that they get their supplies.

 

Even if everything you say is true, all you have to do is look at the pictures on CNN.com to see how this is affecting thousands of Lebanese civilians.

I know. I said as much above. I'm talking about a majority here; not every last person in Lebanon.

 

 

Israel is a very inelligent nation. They arent attacking civilins, but instead hezbala training camps, housing, and the ways that they get their supplies.

 

Even if everything you say is true, all you have to do is look at the pictures on CNN.com to see how this is affecting thousands of Lebanese civilians. CNN is the worst possible legitimate news site to get stuff about Israel off of.

 

 

But a picture is only worth face value. You have to read into it just a little more.

Its better that they LEAVE the nation than die.

 

The fact that israel dropped the leaflets telling everyone to get out really says something.

 

Israel cares about civilian lives, and is out to get the people who endanger the lives of israselis.

I love when liberals turn against CNN.

 

Modern warfare doesnt attack civilians. The US is not attacking civilians in Iraq. If anyone has the Miami Herald the front page photo of the Mercedes speeding away from the Israeli bombs is an amazing photo.

You guys are talking circles around the main point here. Of course Israel does not want civilians to die. But do you seriously think the Lebanese who are having to run for their lives from Israeli air attacks are going to give Israel a pass because they were given advanced warning. If someone tells you to get out of your house because they're about to blow it up, are you going to thank the bomber, or are you going to want his ass dead? I just think Israel is going to soak up all the anger towards Hezbollah, and so the Lebanese people, instead of angrily trying to uproot the organization, are instead going to support it.

 

This is not the way to destroy Hezbollah. In the end, only the Lebanese can do that.

 

So, Israel may be run by a bunch of CareBears who have everyone's best interests at heart and just want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya and sh*t (or they may be evil bastards who want to see rivers of blood run through the streets of Beirut), but the bottom line is, whatever their intentions, I think their actions are just f***ing everything up for everyone.

 

And Beinfest...if you looked at the pictures I'm talking about, you will see lots of cars in traffic trying to get out of Beirut before they get blown to pieces. It would be pretty hard for CNN to screw that up. Unless you think all the cars in those photos are lining up for free ice cream.

why is everything a "liberal" or "conservitive" with you people... "i love how the liberals".. Why cant we be people choosing a side on a subject... Im not, and i know beinfest is not any kind of sheep following everymove of a party, agreeing with everything they do, no matter what. I don not wish, and im sure the same goes for B4P to be classified under the term 'liberal', obviously meant to attack.

 

Are all "liberals" supposed to bow down to CNN? There is no such thing as a "liberal media".. Jesus frikkin christ.. "when liberals turn on cnn".. what kind of statement is that? Lou dobbs? I don't care what side the guy is on, thats the worst new hour ive seen besides O'riley or brit hume.. god..

 

This topic, Israel vs the Middle East is something that every politician in Washington IS ON THE SAME SIDE about, so here, we can all be friends, and take our sides without blasting the other, play it fair, and dont turn to that whole load of "liberal vs GOP's" trash.

 

Thanks,

 

JB

 

 

 

 

 

I think their actions are just f***ing everything up for everyone.

 

Im guessing this is gonna automaticly go into my previous post.. so ill direct..

 

MABDUL: Their reaction, while i do NOT belive they are over reactiong, may actually be a good thing for the rest of the world. Israel has a very, VERY powerful army, and does not take threats lightly. Iran has threatened to blow them.. us, off of the face off the earth, and israel might just DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, like they did to Iraq's nuclear plants before, which could hold Iran's nukes off for another decade or more.

Thanks for contributing to higher gas prices, Israel. Paying $3.00+ a gallon wasn't nearly enough anyway.

 

:thumbup

Thanks for contributing to higher gas prices, Israel. Paying $3.00+ a gallon wasn't nearly enough anyway.

 

:thumbup

If thats all you care about then you have no place in this thread.

 

 

 

And I absolutely abhor CNN. I usually get my news via BBC, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS.

You guys are talking circles around the main point here. Of course Israel does not want civilians to die. But do you seriously think the Lebanese who are having to run for their lives from Israeli air attacks are going to give Israel a pass because they were given advanced warning. If someone tells you to get out of your house because they're about to blow it up, are you going to thank the bomber, or are you going to want his ass dead? I just think Israel is going to soak up all the anger towards Hezbollah, and so the Lebanese people, instead of angrily trying to uproot the organization, are instead going to support it.

 

This is not the way to destroy Hezbollah. In the end, only the Lebanese can do that.

Amen. You can't just bomb people into submission and expect things to change over there.

 

This is all so depressing...

And Beinfest...if you looked at the pictures I'm talking about, you will see lots of cars in traffic trying to get out of Beirut before they get blown to pieces. It would be pretty hard for CNN to screw that up. Unless you think all the cars in those photos are lining up for free ice cream.

 

I know which photos. But you also have to look at the photos of Israeli's running from the Hezbollah rockets.

 

But yes, war sucks.

Thanks for contributing to higher gas prices, Israel. Paying $3.00+ a gallon wasn't nearly enough anyway.

 

:thumbup

If thats all you care about then you have no place in this thread.

 

 

 

And I absolutely abhor CNN. I usually get my news via BBC, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS.

I really do care about Israel. I hope to see it cease to exist in my liifetime and be turned over to the UN and be run as an international free-of-bull-sh*t-zone out of the dirty hands of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

 

As far as CNN, you stroke yourself off to CNN, so don't use that excuse. You're a tool and use any means to reach your desired end. You have the objectivity of a crackhead looking for a hit when it comes to anything related to Israel.

Thanks for contributing to higher gas prices, Israel. Paying $3.00+ a gallon wasn't nearly enough anyway.

 

:thumbup

If thats all you care about then you have no place in this thread.

 

 

 

And I absolutely abhor CNN. I usually get my news via BBC, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS.

I really do care about Israel. I hope to see it cease to exist in my liifetime and be turned over to the UN and be run as an international free-of-bull-sh*t-zone out of the dirty hands of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

 

As far as CNN, you stroke yourself off to CNN, so don't use that excuse. You're a tool and use any means to reach your desired end. You have the objectivity of a crackhead looking for a hit when it comes to anything related to Israel. What the f***?

 

I hate CNN. I simply refuse to watch it.

 

 

And I'm not even going to respond to that first comment.

Thanks for contributing to higher gas prices, Israel. Paying $3.00+ a gallon wasn't nearly enough anyway.

 

:thumbup

If thats all you care about then you have no place in this thread.

 

 

 

And I absolutely abhor CNN. I usually get my news via BBC, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS.

I really do care about Israel. I hope to see it cease to exist in my liifetime and be turned over to the UN and be run as an international free-of-bull-sh*t-zone out of the dirty hands of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

 

As far as CNN, you stroke yourself off to CNN, so don't use that excuse. You're a tool and use any means to reach your desired end. You have the objectivity of a crackhead looking for a hit when it comes to anything related to Israel. What the f***?

 

I hate CNN. I simply refuse to watch it.

 

 

And I'm not even going to respond to that first comment.

LOL typical.

 

If the Jews just took that land in Brazil, we wouldn't be going through this bulls*** right now. Thanks for putting generations of Westerners at risk, Israel. Thanks a bunch.

 

:thumbup

Thanks for contributing to higher gas prices, Israel. Paying $3.00+ a gallon wasn't nearly enough anyway.

 

:thumbup

If thats all you care about then you have no place in this thread.

 

 

 

And I absolutely abhor CNN. I usually get my news via BBC, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS.

I really do care about Israel. I hope to see it cease to exist in my liifetime and be turned over to the UN and be run as an international free-of-bull-sh*t-zone out of the dirty hands of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

 

As far as CNN, you stroke yourself off to CNN, so don't use that excuse. You're a tool and use any means to reach your desired end. You have the objectivity of a crackhead looking for a hit when it comes to anything related to Israel. What the f***?

 

I hate CNN. I simply refuse to watch it.

 

 

And I'm not even going to respond to that first comment.

LOL typical.

 

If the Jews just took that land in Brazil, we wouldn't be going through this bulls*** right now. Thanks for putting generations of Westerners at risk, Israel. Thanks a bunch.

 

:thumbup

Maybe you don't understand.

 

 

First of all the land was offered in what is now Uganda.

 

Second of all, there is no historical ties at all with Jews and Uganda. Jews have been in what i s now Israel and Jordan (Israel historically extended north into Lebanon, Syria, and East into Jordan). Maybe you need a history lesson.

 

In the late 19th century Theodore Herzl started the modern day Zionist movement. Jews started emigrating to the land, which was then known as Palestine. They bought the land from the Arabs there and started cultivating it from swamp into the beautiful country it is today. By the time World War Two rolls around, the Grand Mufti, aka the Arab Nazi, began inciting pogroms against Jews in Israel and got Britain to prevent emigration of Jews to escape the Nazis. By the time 1948 rolled around, the partition plan gave Jews Tel-Aviv and Haifa, two cities that Jews built up, and the Negev. The Arabs got Jerusalem, and all the major areas. Then the Arab countries attacked while Israel declared its Independance in a bomb bunker. The small army fought off the Arabs for two years and gained West Jerusalem in the process. Then in 1967, all the Arab countries attacked again, but this time Israel pushed so far back into their territory, to the footsteps of Damascus. This is where we got Sinai, the West Bank, and Gaza, as well as Golan. And then the myth of the Palestinian people was created. The name Palestinian comes from the Phillistines (Story David and Delilah) of which these people have no relation to. That takes us to our present day where Israel has pulled out of Gaza and Sinai.

 

 

Thats a quick summary. Hope you learn from it!

You have the objectivity of a crackhead looking for a hit when it comes to anything related to Israel.

 

This is the most true statement in this thread.

I think their actions are just f***ing everything up for everyone.

 

Im guessing this is gonna automaticly go into my previous post.. so ill direct..

 

MABDUL: Their reaction, while i do NOT belive they are over reactiong, may actually be a good thing for the rest of the world. Israel has a very, VERY powerful army, and does not take threats lightly. Iran has threatened to blow them.. us, off of the face off the earth, and israel might just DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, like they did to Iraq's nuclear plants before, which could hold Iran's nukes off for another decade or more.

 

At the point that Iran also becomes involved in this conflict, we truly are looking at World War III type situation. If we reach a point where Israel is also attacking Iran...I mean, I don't want to even think about the chain of events that would lead to that, nor the chain of events that would follow it. You're essentially talking about Israel taking on the rest of the Middle East at that point. It will be seen by most of the world's Muslims not as a strategic fight, but as an anti-Muslim campaign. So now you possibly have hundreds of millions of Muslims clamoring for the end of Israel. Which puts the US in the position of either defending their biggest ally in what is probably the most important region of the world...or letting Israel crumble. The Israeli army may be powerful, but I really don't think they can fend off the Muslim world on their own.

 

There is no clean end for Israel and the US if it reaches the point where Israel is also attacking Iran. I just don't see that ending well.

I think their actions are just f***ing everything up for everyone.

 

Im guessing this is gonna automaticly go into my previous post.. so ill direct..

 

MABDUL: Their reaction, while i do NOT belive they are over reactiong, may actually be a good thing for the rest of the world. Israel has a very, VERY powerful army, and does not take threats lightly. Iran has threatened to blow them.. us, off of the face off the earth, and israel might just DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, like they did to Iraq's nuclear plants before, which could hold Iran's nukes off for another decade or more.

 

At the point that Iran also becomes involved in this conflict, we truly are looking at World War III type situation. If we reach a point where Israel is also attacking Iran...I mean, I don't want to even think about the chain of events that would lead to that, nor the chain of events that would follow it. You're essentially talking about Israel taking on the rest of the Middle East at that point. It will be seen by most of the world's Muslims not as a strategic fight, but as an anti-Muslim campaign. So now you possibly have hundreds of millions of Muslims clamoring for the end of Israel. Which puts the US in the position of either defending their biggest ally in what is probably the most important region of the world...or letting Israel crumble. The Israeli army may be powerful, but I really don't think they can fend off the Muslim world on their own.

 

There is no clean end for Israel and the US if it reaches the point where Israel is also attacking Iran. I just don't see that ending well.

 

Of corse i didn't mean an all out war, just a military strike.

Ok, that's pushing it. You shouldn't be attacking citizen infrastructure.

 

That's breaking the rules everyone wants the US to follow so much.

And Hezbollah shouldn't be attacking civilians with rockets.Hezbollah isn't a country. The airport doesn't belong to Hezbollah, and the suburbs aren't part of the Great Sovereign State of Hezbollahstan.

 

Arabs want democracy and modernity but in an Islamic context, their way, at a gradual pace. They associate Western democracy with puppet regimes, secularism, a dilution of thier values, corruption and a lack of order. Not to mention alot of democractic elections have been rigged or squashed by the colonial powers. On top of that the nation-state and Islam are fundamentally incompatible, many Middle Easterners, especially Arabs, identify themselves as Muslims first, then refer to thier tribe, THEN thier nation (exceptions being Egyptians and Iranians who have retained thier borders since antiquity and have been empires before imperial Islam). Muslims view the rise of humanism and secularism and disconnection from God and nature in the West has led them to have two world wars, genocide, nuclear weapons, the disolution of the family, and contamination of the air and water... wow where am I going with this?

 

Well, as for an Arab country that doesn't hate Israel, I'd probably say Oman, they have decent relations with Israel. Also, Israelies everywhere owe alot of to the late King Husayn of Jordan.

 

LOL I think my point was... just to curb the Arab bashing.

 

Man, I can't believe this is happening.

You know, that slow pace to democracy might be best. Hell, look at England - one of the most stable democracies in the world took the longest path to get there.

 

BREAKING: ISRAELI WAR PLANES ARE NOW ATTACKING THE SOUTHERN SUBERBS OF BERUT

Just keep making themselves look better and better.....

 

Maybe North Korea will accidentally fire a nuke and blow up the whole region for fun.

I wouldnt mind Iran and Israel attacking each other. The US would immediately start bombing the absolute sh*t out of Iran and Lebanon into a submission. Then the UN would begin peace keeping the region. In the end the US will actually have more support in the Middle East and the rest of the world will be involved in keeping the peace instead of the US.

I really don't think what network reports this news has much of a bearing on the story:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those are pictures from three different networks, the first happens to be from CNN, and is probably the most pro-Israel picture in there.

 

Basically, saying that "grab everything you can carry because you're going to be coming back to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING" does not condone an action or make it any better. Telling a person that they're about to lose everything, so they should leave so they can spend the rest of their life trying to rebuild is asinine.

US stance is clearly reflective of pragmatic concerns:

 

 

 

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration is concerned that Israeli military operations in Lebanon could play into Hezbollah's hands by weakening the pro-U.S. Lebanese government and helping pro-Syrian forces, senior U.S. officials said Thursday.

 

The United States has called Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers a provocation and placed blame squarely on the group, which Washington has labeled a terrorist organization.

 

The Bush administration has said Iran and Syria bear ultimate responsibility for the violence with its support for the Hezbollah and for Hamas militants battling Israeli forces in Gaza. Hamas' military wing and two other militant groups claimed responsibility for capturing another Israeli soldier on June 25.

 

The escalation comes as world powers are pushing Iran to accept an international offer of incentives to end its nuclear program or face possible United Nations sanctions.

 

But as Israeli troops moved into southern Lebanon after the kidnappings, blockading ports and bombing airports, U.S. diplomats hope Israeli leaders will keep long-term regional strategy in mind.

 

"We are saying, 'Think before you leap. Don't overdo it. Don't respond with emotions and end up bringing the fall of this government and strengthening Hezbollah and bring about another pro-Syrian government,' " said a senior U.S. government official, speaking privately due to the sensitivity of the ongoing diplomacy.

 

Another senior U.S. official who asked not to be identified, said, "We are telling them to think about how these actions get to where you want to go. Not with just the release of the Israeli soldiers, which is an important short-range goal, but also the long-range goal of peace with your neighbors."

 

Phone calls by President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Sinora and other regional leaders have underscored the critical nature of the situation.

 

Hezbollah is based in Lebanon and seeks to establish a fundamentalist Muslim state. Sinora is seen as friendly to the United States and the Bush administration has urged him to disarm Hezbollah through a process of national reconciliation.

 

Pro-Syrian leaders and Syrian troops controlled much of Lebanon's affairs for 29 years until last year. National and international pressure prompted Damascus to withdraw its forces after a popular former Lebanese prime minister was assassinated in a car bombing that many Lebanese blamed on Syria.

 

 

Bush making calls

Bush, speaking Thursday during a trip to Germany, warned that Israel should take care not to "weaken" Lebanon's government and said he would be "making calls" to other leaders about the crisis.

 

"The concern is that any activities by Israel to protect herself will weaken that government, or topple that government, and we've made it clear in our discussions," Bush said.

 

Rice spoke three times Wednesday with Sinora in addition to calling Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and twice phoning Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. Rice told Sinora that the United States understands the Lebanese government doesn't have control over Hezbollah, but Lebanon must exercise what influence it has to try to secure the soldiers' release, officials said.

 

A U.S. diplomatic team -- David Welch, assistant secretary of state for Near East affairs, and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliot Abrahms -- is in the region trying to mediate an end to the crisis, reaching out to U.S. allies Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt to put pressure on Syria and Iran. The Egyptian foreign minister is visiting the Syrian capital Damascus.

 

 

U.N. to discuss crisis

The United Nations Security Council says it will hold an "urgent meeting" on the crisis Friday, and Rice also spoke about it with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who is sending a diplomatic team to the region this week to urge all sides in the conflict to use restraint and protect civilians and civilian infrastructure.

 

The United States seeks the dismantlement of Hezbollah under U.N. Security Council Resolution 1559, which in 2004 called for the "disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias."

 

Olmert called Hezbollah's actions an "act of war" by Lebanon, but U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack says the Bush administration does not hold the Lebanese government responsible, seeing Hezbollah as operating outside the government's authority.

 

During the past year, officials said, the United States has been urging Syria to recognize Lebanese sovereignty and has been making many attempts to support the fragile Sinora government.

 

The Bush administration emphasizes Israel's right to defend itself, saying Washington won't tell Israel how to conduct its military operations. "But don't confuse Hezbollah with the Sinora government, which is not responsible for the Hezbollah's actions," said a senior U.S. official who asked not to be named because he's not been authorized to speak publicly.

 

But unequivocal U.S. support of Israel's operations in Lebanon may send the wrong political signals in the region, officials said, leading to questions about Washington's commitment to Lebanese sovereignty.

 

The U.S. message to Israel, officials said, is that it should balance its short-term goal to free its captured soldiers with its long-term interests. The weakening of the Lebanese government and strengthening of Hezbollah is not something in Israel's best interest.

 

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/labott/index.html